HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bergevin needs to reinfornce the defense a.s.a.p.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-20-2013, 10:50 AM
  #101
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 9,908
vCash: 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't know what you're talking about. And it seems you don't know what you're talking about either.

Google opportunity cost and maybe you'll get what I'm saying because that post shows me that you don't.
I know what it is, I just misread his post. It's case of firing first, then not giving a ****. Whtwver were arguih about, I still think youre wrong

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 10:51 AM
  #102
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 3,247
vCash: 500
Patience. Patience. Patience.

No Team Needed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 10:59 AM
  #103
Zathronas
Registered User
 
Zathronas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Except that we made moves that we didn't really need to make when we had glaring weaknesses. And we did this before the FreeAgency deadline even happened.

That's why he's taking heat here. The priorities are out of whack.

BS.

It's not too early to know if we could've done better here. We KNOW we could've done better than we did because we addressed areas that didn't need addressing and did so right away. Many (including me) feel that the Briere move actually hurt us more than it helped. And then we go get Murray who was almost last in the game of musical FA chairs...

Unlike Whiskey I'm not going to say that MB should be thrown out. But I can understand his frustration.

It's great that we're building long term. That's definitely something to be happy about. But Whiskey is right that the Briere move is something that we've seen for years now. It's never gotten us anywhere but here we go again. And what's worse is that we ignore our (very obvious and pressing) needs. THAT's why people are upset.

I still think we're a playoff team. I still think we'll score a bunch of goals. But our D sucks and our forwards are too small. Nobody stands in front of the net except Gallagher and nobody clears our net. It's like we've forgotten that this part of the game is actually important. We're a good team but we could be so much better right now.

And that's frustrating.
I understand the frustration I really do but you have to realize that the cap changes things. We cannot build a team by trade or free agency we have to build from within. While you're doing that you have to put a product on the ice. Changing Briere, Bouillon, Drewiske, Desharnais or whoever you don't like for whoever you like will just make you fell better.

What we all really want is to see is the team among the elite year in year out. That takes time. Before Detroit became the powerhouse organization we know they were the laughing stock of the nhl for 30 years even worst with Chicago.

Over the years the team stumbled badly. Because of those stumbling we tend to look at our feet instead of ahead. I think we're on the right track. Bergevin will make errors, nobody's perfect (even you whiskey ) but if his errors are short term we can live with that.

He built an organization that is the envy of the nhl right now. That, long term, is the most important.
Now some of Gauthier's picks are almost ready for the show. That's mid-term.
Short term is putting a product on the ice that competitive and will be fun to watch until we have the horse to be an elite team.

Have heart I think we are closer than many thinks.

Zathronas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:01 AM
  #104
Adriatic
Registered User
 
Adriatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,595
vCash: 500
....

Adriatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:20 AM
  #105
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,859
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Randy Cunneyworth used Subban better than Therrien. Between this and the terrible PK tactics, I wonder about Daigneault.



More important that the other guys don't get to shoot at all. "Clearing the net" is highly visible, but not nearly as impactful. Especially since while you're doing it you risk screening your goalie yourself.

Chara and Weber's real value isn't in "clearing the net". They're awesome at regaining and maintaining possession of the puck.
You say tomato I say tomato... both are important. Chara gets puck possession by punching guys in the back of the head. And yeah, I'd say it's a huge part of Chara and Webber's game. We need some of that on our team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
I know what it is, I just misread his post. It's case of firing first, then not giving a ****. Whtwver were arguih about, I still think youre wrong
I don't think you do. You really don't seem to understand the concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
I understand the frustration I really do but you have to realize that the cap changes things. We cannot build a team by trade or free agency we have to build from within. While you're doing that you have to put a product on the ice. Changing Briere, Bouillon, Drewiske, Desharnais or whoever you don't like for whoever you like will just make you fell better.
That's exactly my point dude... did you miss that? There's a cap now so you don't waste the cap space on Briere.

You can use the cap space to your advantage when you have it (which we did) to leverage teams who are in cap trouble. We could've done this with the Flyers for example but instead we wasted the space on Briere.

THAT's what's frustrating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
What we all really want is to see is the team among the elite year in year out. That takes time. Before Detroit became the powerhouse organization we know they were the laughing stock of the nhl for 30 years even worst with Chicago.
Dude, you're preaching to the choir. By all means take your time building the team. But at the same time don't saddle yourself with Briere when you have acute needs. All I'm saying is that we ignored our actual needs and got something that we had too much of. Folks saying that we couldn't have done anything better are being far too forgiving. We wasted cap space that could've been used on actual needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
Over the years the team stumbled badly. Because of those stumbling we tend to look at our feet instead of ahead. I think we're on the right track. Bergevin will make errors, nobody's perfect (even you whiskey ) but if his errors are short term we can live with that.
Okay, I have no problem with a guy making mistakes. But some mistakes are blatant and just shouldn't be made. This falls into that category. Our needs are obvious and pressing. So ADDRESS them. And don't go making current problems worse.

There's no excuse for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
He built an organization that is the envy of the nhl right now. That, long term, is the most important.
Now some of Gauthier's picks are almost ready for the show. That's mid-term.
Short term is putting a product on the ice that competitive and will be fun to watch until we have the horse to be an elite team.

Have heart I think we are closer than many thinks.
I think we're close too. That's what made this offseason so frustrating man. You add in a big shutdown guy and we'd be a lot better. Take away Briere and put in Morrow and we're better still. And if we'd gotten Bobby Ryan we'd be in great shape....

I'm not saying we're a bad team. Three players emerged last year out of nowhere. All are a big part of our future now... that's great! We've got great players in Subban, Price, Max... it's not like we don't have anything to work with.

So why go and be stupid? Why ignore the size problem? Why make it worse? And for the love of God, why not fix the D?

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:28 AM
  #106
JLP
La Sainte-Flanelle
 
JLP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,365
vCash: 500
Well with this defence I think we'll win games when the other team doesn't really give a ****. But down the stretch and into the playoffs (if we're there) I fear the opposition will skate through our blueliners.

Like: Subban Markov Emelin
Meh: Gorges Tinordi
Nah: Bouillon Diaz Drewiskie
???: Beaulieu Murray Pateryn

JLP is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:32 AM
  #107
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I thought we were extremely deep in term of D prospects? Wasn't it one of our top strenghts in Prospect Evaluation?
Sure we have D prospects. Physically imposing prospects? Tinordi and that's it with regard to shut down D.

Look at Ottawa and who they drafted on D. Physical D Men. If they improve their offense, they have the best chance to be the next Canadian team to win the Cup.

I will say it again. Drafting BPA for a decade has left us with too much of a skill set that is detrimental to this team now and in the next couple of years.

SouthernHab is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:38 AM
  #108
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 9,908
vCash: 1707
@ LG: I read that you were whining we got briere instead of vinny, but suit yourself.

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:41 AM
  #109
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think he's ready too.

But that doesnt' mean we don't need a big shutdown blueliner to go with him. Tinordi's a rookie. Just because he's an NHL ready rookie doesn't change anything. Our D is weak defensively. We need a guy who can log big minutes in a defensive role who can actually clear the crease and kill penalties. We don't have this right now so the burden will be put on Tinordi. Maybe Murray can help out but he seems awfully slow.

A legit number three shutdown guy was needed in the worst way and I don't think we addressed this problem. Tinordi and Murray might work out but we're rolling the dice.

My fingers are crossed but I don't like the look of our D at all from a defensive standpoint. Offensively? That's a different story.
Emelin is the guy you're looking for, so why make a panic trade when he'll be back 2 months into the season.

You keep saying the defense is weak defensively, yet you can't bring any statistical evidence to show that. Just because Markov Diaz and Gorges are not 6'5" 240lbs it doesn't mean they are weak defensively, but you can't seem to grasp this...

People have blamed Price for the poor GAA down the stretch, and the numbers clearly bare it out.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:42 AM
  #110
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Whiskey7.

You mentioned credibility in a post earlier.

Awesome as you tout Gagne, proclaim Diaz a great pick up, call the management team in Montreal racists and ignore the tenure of Gauthier as Gaineys number one guy.

Credible? Ease up man.

SouthernHab is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:53 AM
  #111
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Randy Cunneyworth used Subban better than Therrien. Between this and the terrible PK tactics, I wonder about Daigneault.



More important that the other guys don't get to shoot at all. "Clearing the net" is highly visible, but not nearly as impactful. Especially since while you're doing it you risk screening your goalie yourself.

Chara and Weber's real value isn't in "clearing the net". They're awesome at regaining and maintaining possession of the puck.
Using a d-man like crazy is only a good option when that's all you have, no reason to overuse Subban last year with the depth we had on defense.

"clearing the net" is probably the most overrated part of how people here evaluate defensemen.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:56 AM
  #112
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Sure we have D prospects. Physically imposing prospects? Tinordi and that's it with regard to shut down D.

Look at Ottawa and who they drafted on D. Physical D Men. If they improve their offense, they have the best chance to be the next Canadian team to win the Cup.

I will say it again. Drafting BPA for a decade has left us with too much of a skill set that is detrimental to this team now and in the next couple of years.
Beaulieu and Pateryn also have good size. Didier also. Dietz Thrower Nygren and Ellis are not exactly smurfs either. Size on defense should be a non issue going forward, assuming Emelin is re-signed.

We can do a lot better than Ottawa if we want to have a great defense. Karlsson is a d-man in name only. The rest is big and slow, hard to win with because a good team will forecheck them into the ground.

Drafting PBA is never a bad idea, if you have the best players you can always trade/sign UFA's for need.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 11:57 AM
  #113
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 3,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Sure we have D prospects. Physically imposing prospects? Tinordi and that's it with regard to shut down D.
Greg Pateryn is almost as NHL ready as Tinordi. Thrower, Ellis and Dietz are all physical players. Do you pay attention to the website attached to the forum you post on? There's some valuable information on Canadiens prospects there!

No Team Needed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:05 PM
  #114
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Using a d-man like crazy is only a good option when that's all you have, no reason to overuse Subban last year with the depth we had on defense.
There's a lot of space between overusing Subban and using him 23 minutes a night. He's very capable of handling 26-27 minutes without being overused. There's no reason to go so far as pull a Tortorella on him.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:17 PM
  #115
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
There's a lot of space between overusing Subban and using him 23 minutes a night. He's very capable of handling 26-27 minutes without being overused. There's no reason to go so far as pull a Tortorella on him.
Most d-men wear down if they play more than 22-23 minutes. If playing your best d-men 26-27 minutes was a good thing all teams would be doing it. 4 minutes doesn't sound like a lot but over 82 games it adds up to be another 14-15 games a year.

It's fine for Chara he plays a stay at home game but Subban uses his skating a lot and likes to hit, that uses a lot more energy.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:22 PM
  #116
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Most d-men wear down if they play more than 22-23 minutes.
Most defensemen play less than that because their teams have better defensemen eating more minutes. Subban is not "most defensemen", though. The list of D-men that played more than 25 minutes a night last season has a lot of Subban peers: Suter, Karlsson, Doughty, Weber, Letang, Pietrangelo, OEL... Chara just missed the 25-minutes a night.

In any case, it makes especially no sense to play Markov more than Subban.

Maybe 4 more minutes is excessive, but PK's capable of handling at least two.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:31 PM
  #117
Draft
Registered User
 
Draft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,978
vCash: 500
We don't need physically imposing dman, we just need guys that can play the position.

I don't want any more one-dimensional defenceman, I want a Roman Hamrlik/Andrei Markov replacement. I want guys that can play both ends of the ice, I don't want weak spots and spots that other teams can exploit. Bouillon, Murray, Drewiske, and Tinordi are all one-dimensional players. They have defensive ability but can't start a breakout, can't sustain pressure in the offensive zone, and can't play on the PP. Diaz, Markov, and Beaulieu are all weak defensively. None of them can play sustained big minutes in the NHL and they need to be put against weak opposition because of their lack of defensive ability (or size, age, speed).

This leaves us with Subban and Gorges capable of playing big minutes and Gorges is a serious question mark offensively for anything but a breakout pass. Not including Markov on the two-way, big minute list is not saying he's a bad player, he would just be better suited to a minimized role.

Luca Sbisa, Andrew MacDonald, Jonathan Ericsson are the players I would target.

Draft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:34 PM
  #118
SwiftyHab
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 559
vCash: 500
Only in Montreal can we have the current Norris trophy winner and people still complaining about our defence.

SwiftyHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:35 PM
  #119
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,859
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
@ LG: I read that you were whining we got briere instead of vinny, but suit yourself.
You read wrong. Whiskey has already pointed this out to you. Please stop with these useless posts.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:38 PM
  #120
Draft
Registered User
 
Draft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwiftyHab View Post
Only in Montreal can we have the current Norris trophy winner and people still complaining about our defence.
As good as Subban is, he can't play 60mins a night.

Draft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:38 PM
  #121
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,859
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Emelin is the guy you're looking for, so why make a panic trade when he'll be back 2 months into the season.

You keep saying the defense is weak defensively, yet you can't bring any statistical evidence to show that. Just because Markov Diaz and Gorges are not 6'5" 240lbs it doesn't mean they are weak defensively, but you can't seem to grasp this...

People have blamed Price for the poor GAA down the stretch, and the numbers clearly bare it out.
I don't think Emelin is the guy. And he's hurt until at least January.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwiftyHab View Post
Only in Montreal can we have the current Norris trophy winner and people still complaining about our defence.
Nobody's complaining about Subban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Most d-men wear down if they play more than 22-23 minutes. If playing your best d-men 26-27 minutes was a good thing all teams would be doing it. 4 minutes doesn't sound like a lot but over 82 games it adds up to be another 14-15 games a year.

It's fine for Chara he plays a stay at home game but Subban uses his skating a lot and likes to hit, that uses a lot more energy.
Yeah, Chara's not getting tired out fighting in front of the crease at all... C'mon man.

Subban should be out there for 27 mins. a game. He can easily handle this.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:40 PM
  #122
onemorecup*
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
no need,

of the players you named only Emelin is a top 4. As for the rest Bouillon and Murray are day to day. Drewiske is easily replaceable by Tinordi or Pateryn.

I still think our D is suspect but not because of injuries.
agreed 100%

our d is suspect cause it stinks , not injuries

do nothing , phase in the kids and ride it out, we arent going anywhere

I WOULD LET ALL THE D WALK NEXT YEAR

sign pk, emelin, keep gorges , tinordi , pateryn

dont waste picks trading for vet retards like Bieksa who are on the downside of a career

you can always get drewiskies anytime on cheap 1 year deals to fill in the gaps but MB is nuts to trade valuable assets for a short term fix

2 words fked us up

RYAN MCDONOUGH HE WOULD OF SOLIDIFIED OUR D

onemorecup* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:42 PM
  #123
onemorecup*
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lafleurs guy View Post
i don't think emelin is the guy. And he's hurt until at least january.


Nobody's complaining about subban.
correct emelin is the guy and pk is not the problem

onemorecup* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:42 PM
  #124
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,859
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
agreed 100%

our d is suspect cause it stinks , not injuries

do nothing , phase in the kids and ride it out, we arent going anywhere

I WOULD LET ALL THE D WALK NEXT YEAR

sign pk, emelin, keep gorges , tinordi , pateryn

dont waste picks trading for vet retards like Bieksa who are on the downside of a career

you can always get drewiskies anytime on cheap 1 year deals to fill in the gaps but MB is nuts to trade valuable assets for a short term fix

2 words fked us up

RYAN MCDONOUGH HE WOULD OF SOLIDIFIED OUR D
Don't mention McD. You are going to make us cry.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2013, 12:46 PM
  #125
onemorecup*
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,062
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by draft View Post
we don't need physically imposing dman, we just need guys that can play the position.

I don't want any more one-dimensional defenceman, i want a roman hamrlik/andrei markov replacement. I want guys that can play both ends of the ice, i don't want weak spots and spots that other teams can exploit. Bouillon, murray, drewiske, and tinordi are all one-dimensional players. They have defensive ability but can't start a breakout, can't sustain pressure in the offensive zone, and can't play on the pp. Diaz, markov, and beaulieu are all weak defensively. None of them can play sustained big minutes in the nhl and they need to be put against weak opposition because of their lack of defensive ability (or size, age, speed).

This leaves us with subban and gorges capable of playing big minutes and gorges is a serious question mark offensively for anything but a breakout pass. Not including markov on the two-way, big minute list is not saying he's a bad player, he would just be better suited to a minimized role.

luca sbisa, andrew macdonald, jonathan ericsson are the players i would target.
bang on , but gorges isnt built to play big minutes , he is a 5 on great teams and markov is done as a core defender

what we need are scuderi , staal, giordano types

we have too many one dimensional stiffs who cant defend

onemorecup* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.