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Bergevin needs to reinfornce the defense a.s.a.p.

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Old
09-20-2013, 03:28 PM
  #226
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MB is too busy patting himself on the back for last season's results. I think somehow he believes that last season was no fluke, and we really are a first place team...lol

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09-20-2013, 03:28 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
What?

The addition of Tinordi and Murray is softer?

Murray is slow. So is Chara. They have roles to play on their teams.
markov got routinely exposed as Mr-molasses last year and he aint getting younger. And he knees scare the bejeezus out of me.

Tinordi is still too green and the risk of rushing him is not worth it. Let him get better in the A, if we ruin him by rushing him, then a pox on our house.

Murray DOES make us a whole lot slower, and if you are saying that murray and Chara are somehow equivalent because they are both " slow", I suspect there is not much left to talk about.

Georges is our best " steady" but hes not physical, Diaz wouldnt go into the corners for the team photo and dreweiske is so unremarkable in every facet of the game that the best way to describe him is "a warm body".

subban remains a stud but we cant chelios him and make him play 45 minutes a game.

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09-20-2013, 03:31 PM
  #228
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markov got routinely exposed as Mr-molasses last year and he aint getting younger. And he knees scare the bejeezus out of me.

Tinordi is still too green and the risk of rushing him is not worth it. Let him get better in the A, if we ruin him by rushing him, then a pox on our house.

Murray DOES make us a whole lot slower, and if you are saying that murray and Chara are somehow equivalent because they are both " slow", I suspect there is not much left to talk about.

Georges is our best " steady" but hes not physical, Diaz wouldnt go into the corners for the team photo and dreweiske is so unremarkable in every facet of the game that the best way to describe him is "a warm body".

subban remains a stud but we cant chelios him and make him play 45 minutes a game.
this doesnt explain how it makes our D SOFTER as you said yourself in a previous post.

we havent lost any toughness and we ADDED Murray, so please, tell us how we're softer on D ?

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09-20-2013, 03:32 PM
  #229
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This year no, next year yes. From what I hear from training camp Tinordi and Pateryn are the 2 prospects who are ready for the NHL. I would still wait for next year but you get my drift. Barring injuries they'll replace Bouillon and Murray next year maybe sooner.
Both Pateryn and Tinordi are big defensive defensemen, which is exactly where our holes are and what we need to strengthen our D. Combine them with Emelin and Gorges and Montreal might have much-improved defensive core in a couple of years.

Meanwhile, our offensive D with Subban and Diaz could compensate for Markov's departure with a maturing Beaulieu and possibly Dietz. And remember - all these young guys are coming up learning the same system.

In two years, the oldest player of this group will be Gorges at 31. Pretty young overall. The smallest of this group will be Diaz at 5'11". Pretty decent size overall.

So by 2015 our D will likely be bigger and stronger in our end and, depending on how well Beaulieu develops, we could still have great forechecking. The catch? Expect rookie learning curves to take us one step back before moving two steps forward. Tinordi, Pateryn, Beaulieu and Dietz are all very raw.

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09-20-2013, 03:32 PM
  #230
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1)

The term doesn't matter much if they produce for at least the first few years. If they have 3 good/average years, then struggle the next year if we want to trade them it's only 3 years left at 5m. There's always a team willing to take a chance that a struggling player just needs a change of scenery if his past was good. And 3 years at 5m per is not much of a risk.
Are you serious? you're griping about a 2 year 4 millions per deal for Brière and don't mind a Clarkson 7 years/5.25 millions per to a player that never gave more than 48 points in a season. Because hey! if he can give us 3 good years out of 7 it will be worth it!

Talk about the grass being greener at your neighbours house.

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09-20-2013, 03:35 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
markov got routinely exposed as Mr-molasses last year and he aint getting younger. And he knees scare the bejeezus out of me.

Tinordi is still too green and the risk of rushing him is not worth it. Let him get better in the A, if we ruin him by rushing him, then a pox on our house.

Murray DOES make us a whole lot slower, and if you are saying that murray and Chara are somehow equivalent because they are both " slow", I suspect there is not much left to talk about.

Georges is our best " steady" but hes not physical, Diaz wouldnt go into the corners for the team photo and dreweiske is so unremarkable in every facet of the game that the best way to describe him is "a warm body".

subban remains a stud but we cant chelios him and make him play 45 minutes a game.
Hahaha that was funny. Wow I agree on every point!

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09-20-2013, 03:36 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
this doesnt explain how it makes our D SOFTER as you said yourself in a previous post.

we havent lost any toughness and we ADDED Murray, so please, tell us how we're softer on D ?
murray and an ageing markov makes us slower and guys like whiskey and diaz make us softer. You want the bar to clear to be guys that make us both slower and softer ? I'm sorry I dont think hall gill is coming back.

If we had a guy who could skate like diaz and clear like murray, we would be in much better shape. But we dont and assuming that tinordi will fill that role because he's as close as we got is shortsighted.

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09-20-2013, 03:39 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
And that is where we differ. I think we are like the Capitals a few year back. A good season team but we're far from a perennial playoff contender. We are far from Boston, Chicago, L.A.

Let's have this discussion again in 3 years. I might hate Bergevin by then or you might actually praise him
The Capitals were considered contenders year in year out. I thought that was the plan be a top team year in and year out.

Washington couldn't seal the deal because they always relied on talented but inexperienced goaltending and defence. They also lacked some veterans with cup experience to help their young stars learn what it takes. Instead of addressing their needs they decided to wait for Alzner, Carlson, Varlamov, Neuvrith, Holtby to develop and fill them instead.

We are doing exactly what Washington did, wait for the young guys to develop in order to fill our needs. Washington needed a veteran top-4 shutdown defenceman just like we do now. They chose to wait for Alzner to develop into one, and never accomplished anything. Had they traded prospects/picks for one they would probably be cup champions now.

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09-20-2013, 03:39 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
murray and an ageing markov makes us slower and guys like whiskey and diaz make us softer. You want the bar to clear to be guys that make us both slower and softer ? I'm sorry I dont think hall gill is coming back.

If we had a guy who could skate like diaz and clear like murray, we would be in much better shape. But we dont and assuming that tinordi will fill that role because he's as close as we got is shortsighted.
Diaz and Drewiske were already here, so technically, they're not making us any softer than we already were.

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09-20-2013, 03:40 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
Are you serious? you're griping about a 2 year 4 millions per deal for Brière and don't mind a Clarkson 7 years/5.25 millions per to a player that never gave more than 48 points in a season. Because hey! if he can give us 3 good years out of 7 it will be worth it!

Talk about the grass being greener at your neighbours house.
In Toronto, that tiny patch of green grass around your neighbour's house probably costs a few million, so the Clarkson deal doesn't look too bad if you factor in location, location, location.

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09-20-2013, 03:40 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
murray and an ageing markov makes us slower and guys like whiskey and diaz make us softer. You want the bar to clear to be guys that make us both slower and softer ? I'm sorry I dont think hall gill is coming back.

If we had a guy who could skate like diaz and clear like murray, we would be in much better shape. But we dont and assuming that tinordi will fill that role because he's as close as we got is shortsighted.
I have to ask you this Sandysan. You want the habs to go get a big defensemen who has mobility and can move the puck. Can you give me an example and what you would offer because I think you have no idea how valuable they are in the league.

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09-20-2013, 03:44 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
murray and an ageing markov makes us slower and guys like whiskey and diaz make us softer. You want the bar to clear to be guys that make us both slower and softer ? I'm sorry I dont think hall gill is coming back.

If we had a guy who could skate like diaz and clear like murray, we would be in much better shape. But we dont and assuming that tinordi will fill that role because he's as close as we got is shortsighted.
both players were already with us at the end of last season, they're not softer/tougher than they were last season... and Drewiskie is our 7th D at best, he'll play a minimum of games anyway.

so, AGAIN, you still havent found a single explanation as to why you think we'll be softer...

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09-20-2013, 03:45 PM
  #238
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I have to ask you this Sandysan. You want the habs to go get a big defensemen who has mobility and can move the puck. Can you give me an example and what you would offer because I think you have no idea how valuable they are in the league.
**** just got real!

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09-20-2013, 03:45 PM
  #239
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markov got routinely exposed as Mr-molasses last year and he aint getting younger. And he knees scare the bejeezus out of me.

Tinordi is still too green and the risk of rushing him is not worth it. Let him get better in the A, if we ruin him by rushing him, then a pox on our house.

Murray DOES make us a whole lot slower, and if you are saying that murray and Chara are somehow equivalent because they are both " slow", I suspect there is not much left to talk about.

Georges is our best " steady" but hes not physical, Diaz wouldnt go into the corners for the team photo and dreweiske is so unremarkable in every facet of the game that the best way to describe him is "a warm body".

subban remains a stud but we cant chelios him and make him play 45 minutes a game.
Markov wont be slower than he already is. He relies on positional play and if that is off, we suffer.

In no way am I comparing Murray to Chara in anything other than speed. Both are slow. Both can be effective on D.

I do agree with you regarding Diaz. However, he was here last season.

I am not a fan of Drewiske. I will say that his fight against McCormick is not a very good measure of his toughness though. Not too may players who arent enforcers would look good against McCormick either.

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09-20-2013, 03:46 PM
  #240
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Diaz and Drewiske were already here, so technically, they're not making us any softer than we already were.
this was the assetion in question

"The Habs defense is better and deeper than its been in almost 2 decades. Outside Emelin the injuries are minor. Red herring ."

Not 2 years ago, not last year. In the last two decades. Having ( and extending whiskey) players like Diaz does make us softer, just as much as having guys like Murray makes us slower.

This was related to the original assertion that we dont need another physical defenseman which most people know is simply not true. We do.

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09-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #241
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The Capitals were considered contenders year in year out. I thought that was the plan be a top team year in and year out.

Washington couldn't seal the deal because they always relied on talented but inexperienced goaltending and defence. They also lacked some veterans with cup experience to help their young stars learn what it takes. Instead of addressing their needs they decided to wait for Alzner, Carlson, Varlamov, Neuvrith, Holtby to develop and fill them instead.

We are doing exactly what Washington did, wait for the young guys to develop in order to fill our needs. Washington needed a veteran top-4 shutdown defenceman just like we do now. They chose to wait for Alzner to develop into one, and never accomplished anything. Had they traded prospects/picks for one they would probably be cup champions now.
If we can prove to stay at the top where we were in a 48 game season, sure you're absolutely right to go for it. Right now, we HAVE veteran presence and we just finished 1 full season at the bottom of the standing and 1 half-season near the top. That's hardly a perennial contender.

I blame the fan's impatience to short attention span's and the internet for instant gratification!

Signed Old Man Zathronas

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09-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Markov wont be slower than he already is. He relies on positional play and if that is off, we suffer.

In no way am I comparing Murray to Chara in anything other than speed. Both are slow. Both can be effective on D.

I do agree with you regarding Diaz. However, he was here last season.

I am not a fan of Drewiske. I will say that his fight against McCormick is not a very good measure of his toughness though. Not too may players who arent enforcers would look good against McCormick either.
Labelling Dewiske as "soft" is ridiculous. hHe may not be a punisher but he isn't afraid of the dirty work either.

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09-20-2013, 03:48 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
The Capitals were considered contenders year in year out. I thought that was the plan be a top team year in and year out.

Washington couldn't seal the deal because they always relied on talented but inexperienced goaltending and defence. They also lacked some veterans with cup experience to help their young stars learn what it takes. Instead of addressing their needs they decided to wait for Alzner, Carlson, Varlamov, Neuvrith, Holtby to develop and fill them instead.

We are doing exactly what Washington did, wait for the young guys to develop in order to fill our needs. Washington needed a veteran top-4 shutdown defenceman just like we do now. They chose to wait for Alzner to develop into one, and never accomplished anything. Had they traded prospects/picks for one they would probably be cup champions now.
Alzner and Holtby are only 24, Carlson 23. A little early to be writing them off.

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09-20-2013, 03:54 PM
  #244
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Markov wont be slower than he already is. He relies on positional play and if that is off, we suffer.

In no way am I comparing Murray to Chara in anything other than speed. Both are slow. Both can be effective on D.

I do agree with you regarding Diaz. However, he was here last season.

I am not a fan of Drewiske. I will say that his fight against McCormick is not a very good measure of his toughness though. Not too may players who arent enforcers would look good against McCormick either.
So a guy a year older on wonky knees is going to fight back father time and hold steady ? Markov's game need not be based on speed but he is going to get slower.

And chara, is a #1D. That ship sailed on murray if it ever even made it to the water. The people in SJ who loved murray, loved him despite the fact he was slow several years ago. They dont deny it.

And whiskey's toughness had nothing to do with a fight, in front of the net he's got nothing. really, zippola. Some will say cube can clear but he cant, hes too small ( although super strong) and he's getting old as well.

look at the sens series, guys like pageau could ride the crease with impunity and we had no answer for a tiny little guy. We were so deficient in this that we are willing to overlook murrays lack of speed because without someone to clear the front of the net, we will meet exactly the same fate. And if we do we will still have the same appologists saying " size if overated, we dont need to get a bigger D".
its gets tired after a while.

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09-20-2013, 03:58 PM
  #245
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Labelling Dewiske as "soft" is ridiculous. hHe may not be a punisher but he isn't afraid of the dirty work either.
I'm sorry what dirty work ? You think he's efficient at moving guys from the front of price ? Based on what ? Whiskey is a meh depth guy, not horrible at anything but not great at anything either. A good definition of a filler, good to have around if you need it, but you would be way better off not needing it. We dont need more of these guys, we need guys who address a persistent need which is guys who can move guys from the front of the net.

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09-20-2013, 04:02 PM
  #246
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So a guy a year older on wonky knees is going to fight back father time and hold steady ? Markov's game need not be based on speed but he is going to get slower.

And chara, is a #1D. That ship sailed on murray if it ever even made it to the water. The people in SJ who loved murray, loved him despite the fact he was slow several years ago. They dont deny it.

And whiskey's toughness had nothing to do with a fight, in front of the net he's got nothing. really, zippola. Some will say cube can clear but he cant, hes too small ( although super strong) and he's getting old as well.

look at the sens series, guys like pageau could ride the crease with impunity and we had no answer for a tiny little guy. We were so deficient in this that we are willing to overlook murrays lack of speed because without someone to clear the front of the net, we will meet exactly the same fate. And if we do we will still have the same appologists saying " size if overated, we dont need to get a bigger D".
its gets tired after a while.
pretty sure the Pageau of this world will try to ride the crease once or twice with Murray on the ice... and it will be painful enough they wont do it again.

Everyone know he's slow and can be beat from the outside and al' but most also know the crease will leave a sheerwood taste in the mouth of those who go there too often when he's on the ice to protect it.

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09-20-2013, 04:04 PM
  #247
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It's like year after year we have the same type of defense but we expect different results..how's that work? I could even live with the fact that we don't have a physical defense if we had a fast skating puck moving defense...but we don't even have that. Only Subban is a good skater, the rest are slow. Diaz is quick but he's not fast. We've been like in no man's land regarding defense forever and it hasn't brought us anything.

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09-20-2013, 04:06 PM
  #248
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It's like year after year we have the same type of defense but we expect different results..how's that work? I could even live with the fact that we don't have a physical defense if we had a fast skating puck moving defense...but we don't even have that. Only Subban is a good skater, the rest are slow. Diaz is quick but he's not fast. We've been like in no man's land regarding defense forever and it hasn't brought us anything.
I guarantee you that Diaz would beat Subban in a foot race.

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09-20-2013, 04:11 PM
  #249
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I guarantee you that Diaz would beat Subban in a foot race.
He would beat him in the first 10 feet, after that Subban's long strides would catch up to him like nothing. Just watch Diaz when there is a lot of space behind and he has to race for the puck in a long distance, he gets outpaced regularly. Smaller guys just look faster because they take more strides.

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09-20-2013, 04:18 PM
  #250
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**** just got real!
why does everything have to be positive ( who would you get?). How about not extending guys we dont need and then defending them by saying that they can do things they cant ?

and I'm not naive to think we can get a guy to clear the crease for nothing, and I like the addition of murray for this but his lack of foot speed is a liability. Derek engeland in pittsburgh has a chap contract that ends next year ( I think). Matt carkner signed a deal last year as a ufa for cheap. there are lots of guys who have zero offensive talent, play reasonable minutes and play physical in front of the net that wont break the bank to get them. I'm not looking for Scott Stevens mean, but something more than scott gomez mean.

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