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Old
11-21-2006, 04:30 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
That's exactly what he said.



Dangerous game he's playing IMO, shows Carbonneau is protecting Kovalev... I mean, what else, Thrusday morning we'll hear him bash Plekanec for the lack of production on the 2nd line....
I thought Kost looked fine. Certainly no worse than Lats (and not any worse than many of the veterins). Kid can't catch a break. Unless Carb see's he's not giving his all. Maybe he's looking for Perez-like hustle? I hope one day they give him a fair trial (at least 30 games) before giving up on him.

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11-21-2006, 04:44 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
I thought Kost looked fine. Certainly no worse than Lats (and not any worse than many of the veterins). Kid can't catch a break. Unless Carb see's he's not giving his all. Maybe he's looking for Perez-like hustle? I hope one day they give him a fair trial (at least 30 games) before giving up on him.
I think he might just not like him :

- Perezhogin did sh** in training camp and Carbs never said a thing
- Latendresse did nothing in the first 14 games and Carbs kept defending him
- Plekanec didnt produce anything on the 2nd line and Carbs said its because he as a coach might have asked too much and encouraged him


So, why this kid in particular... can't he have the same treatment as the other youngsters ?

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11-21-2006, 04:52 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I think he might just not like him :

- Perezhogin did sh** in training camp and Carbs never said a thing
- Latendresse did nothing in the first 14 games and Carbs kept defending him
- Plekanec didnt produce anything on the 2nd line and Carbs said its because he as a coach might have asked too much and encouraged him


So, why this kid in particular... can't he have the same treatment as the other youngsters ?
I certainly donít see it that way. Most probably, Carbo did not want to hurt big egos of two ballerinas. Hell, even Pleks felt that way when he took all the blame off their sensitive shoulders on himself.

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11-21-2006, 06:40 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
I thought Kost looked fine. Certainly no worse than Lats (and not any worse than many of the veterins). Kid can't catch a break. Unless Carb see's he's not giving his all. Maybe he's looking for Perez-like hustle? I hope one day they give him a fair trial (at least 30 games) before giving up on him.
I'm really getting tired of hearing the "kid can't catch a break" type comments. This isn't directed at you necessarily, just all of the apologists in general. It's about as far from the truth as possible. The kid got a huge break when the Habs were ballsy enough to draft him on the top ten in 2003, the best draft a decade. What has he done to be annointed anything but a first line spot in the minors? He dogs it in the minors, he's the only 10 ten pick from the 2003 draft not in the NHL, and it's the Carbo's fault? Carbo has absolutely nothing to do with Kosty's lack of production.

Carbo was bred on the success of the Habs franchise - he witnessed the whole thing himself.

For those of you too young to remember, Carbo was a fantastic scorer in junior. In his final season he topped 180 points and 70 goals, and when he graduated to the NHL he soon found out that gaudy stats in junior don't earn you an NHL spot. The Habs had depth, and he had to earn his place.

Well - Carbo went down to Nova Scotia and worked hard...very hard. Even after a rookie season with 88 points in the AHL, Carbo was once again demoted to the Voyageurs. Guy worked on his defensive game, and the next season led the Voyageur in scoring with 94 points, while adding 124 penalty minutes. Guy was ready in season three, at the age of 22, and never looked back when he made the team in training camp. Carbo became known as one of the best defensive players in the history of the game, not something people in junior were ready to predict.

Kosty is the same age as Carbo was in that second AHL season. Guy took the bull by the horns and earned his spot in the NHL, becoming one of the most important components in the Habs last two Cup winners. Yet soem think we should be afraid of upsetting poor Andrei by keeping him in the miinors and wanting him to show some dominance.

I'm glad Carbo isn't giving Kostitsyn a free ride. People have to remember the Habs' history, and how the team is more important than the individual - wining was the most important thing. Gainey, Muller and Carbo all know what it takes to win a Cup, and it doesn't include giving lazy players a free ride. Carbo was there when the best Hab player of the past 35 years was relegated to fourth line duty because he wasn't working hard in his own zone. the same thing happened to Richard - both Guy and Maurice retired because of it.

Pierre Larouche was a 50-goal scorer in the NHL at the age of 19. Yet when he joined the Habs Scotty Bowman sat him in the press box for two seasons more than he played him. Why - he had a tendency of floating, missed defensive assignments (like Kosty did on a few occasions)).

Stphan lebeau scored 70 goals in the AHL and wasn't recalled by the Habs once that season - why should a fellow who has scored one pro goal this season be treated completely differently just because he was a high draft pick?

The Kovalev/Samsonov combo hasn't worked great, but it's not the first time for those players having difficulties clicking with other players. They are hard players to play with, and I think the feeling with Guy, Kirk et al is that they should be given lots of games to get used to each other. It's not like Sammy isn't working hard, and it should be noted that Kovy is adapting to a new postion midstream.

I wanted Kostitsyn to stay, but ultimately he has lost a full-time position with the club at this time to Latendresse, and nothing occurred over the past three games to change that. We shouldn't be upset that he was beat out by a fellow prospect, especially one that brings a more physical (and IMO smarter) element to his game.

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11-21-2006, 06:44 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
On CKAC, I heard Carbo saying that Kosty was not ready, that clearly he has some talent but was not ready to compete (pratically saying that he was too lazy for him....)

Did I hear this correctly??? Can somebody confirm this?

I just heard Coach Lever's pregame interview and he said that the Habs were happy with his efforts but not his consistency.

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11-21-2006, 07:01 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
I just heard Coach Lever's pregame interview and he said that the Habs were happy with his efforts but not his consistency.
I've heard the whole interview correctly and Carbo said something like" if a player who's been in the league for 7, 8 or 10 years don't feel like trying in a game, it could be OK but for a guy who's trying to make the lineup as a 1st year kid, that's not good". I did talk about consistency in the interview as well.....

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11-21-2006, 07:32 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
I'm really getting tired of hearing the "kid can't catch a break" type comments. This isn't directed at you necessarily, just all of the apologists in general. It's about as far from the truth as possible. The kid got a huge break when the Habs were ballsy enough to draft him on the top ten in 2003, the best draft a decade. What has he done to be annointed anything but a first line spot in the minors? He dogs it in the minors, he's the only 10 ten pick from the 2003 draft not in the NHL, and it's the Carbo's fault? Carbo has absolutely nothing to do with Kosty's lack of production.

Carbo was bred on the success of the Habs franchise - he witnessed the whole thing himself.

For those of you too young to remember, Carbo was a fantastic scorer in junior. In his final season he topped 180 points and 70 goals, and when he graduated to the NHL he soon found out that gaudy stats in junior don't earn you an NHL spot. The Habs had depth, and he had to earn his place.

Well - Carbo went down to Nova Scotia and worked hard...very hard. Even after a rookie season with 88 points in the AHL, Carbo was once again demoted to the Voyageurs. Guy worked on his defensive game, and the next season led the Voyageur in scoring with 94 points, while adding 124 penalty minutes. Guy was ready in season three, at the age of 22, and never looked back when he made the team in training camp. Carbo became known as one of the best defensive players in the history of the game, not something people in junior were ready to predict.

Kosty is the same age as Carbo was in that second AHL season. Guy took the bull by the horns and earned his spot in the NHL, becoming one of the most important components in the Habs last two Cup winners. Yet soem think we should be afraid of upsetting poor Andrei by keeping him in the miinors and wanting him to show some dominance.

I'm glad Carbo isn't giving Kostitsyn a free ride. People have to remember the Habs' history, and how the team is more important than the individual - wining was the most important thing. Gainey, Muller and Carbo all know what it takes to win a Cup, and it doesn't include giving lazy players a free ride. Carbo was there when the best Hab player of the past 35 years was relegated to fourth line duty because he wasn't working hard in his own zone. the same thing happened to Richard - both Guy and Maurice retired because of it.

Pierre Larouche was a 50-goal scorer in the NHL at the age of 19. Yet when he joined the Habs Scotty Bowman sat him in the press box for two seasons more than he played him. Why - he had a tendency of floating, missed defensive assignments (like Kosty did on a few occasions)).

Stphan lebeau scored 70 goals in the AHL and wasn't recalled by the Habs once that season - why should a fellow who has scored one pro goal this season be treated completely differently just because he was a high draft pick?

The Kovalev/Samsonov combo hasn't worked great, but it's not the first time for those players having difficulties clicking with other players. They are hard players to play with, and I think the feeling with Guy, Kirk et al is that they should be given lots of games to get used to each other. It's not like Sammy isn't working hard, and it should be noted that Kovy is adapting to a new postion midstream.

I wanted Kostitsyn to stay, but ultimately he has lost a full-time position with the club at this time to Latendresse, and nothing occurred over the past three games to change that. We shouldn't be upset that he was beat out by a fellow prospect, especially one that brings a more physical (and IMO smarter) element to his game.
Crazy talk. I have no problem demoting Kost as long as there is parity in the process. The fact is that Kost, in addition to paying his dues in the AHL, did every bit as much as Lats to deserve a chance with the big club. Yet Lats gets priority and is given every chance imagineable to impress.

I'm not saying the latter process applied to Lats is right or wrong, just simply that if that is the standard then apply it to every prospect across the board. And by the way, Kost looked better in his first few NHL games than Lats did in his, so how the heck did Lats beat him out of the spot? Crazy talk I tell you. I'm not here to rah, rah, rah for Kost; I would make the same observation if the roles for Lats and Kost were reversed.

It's simply about parity in the process. Just imagine the same thing happening where you work, where some guy who has been at the job two years less than you and who has not demonstrated he can do the job any better than you, gets a promotion ahead of you (perhaps simply because the boss feels that somewhere down the road this fella might be able to do the job better than you). I ask you, in all honesty, how would you feel?

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11-21-2006, 07:39 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
It's simply about parity in the process. Just imagine the same thing happening where you work, where some guy who has been at the job two years less than you and who has not demonstrated he can do the job any better than you, gets a promotion ahead of you (perhaps simply because the boss feels that somewhere down the road this fella might be able to do the job better than you). I ask you, in all honesty, how would you feel?
Come on that would never happen in the real world. Everybody is treated fairly.

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11-21-2006, 07:50 PM
  #109
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Carbo said today that he wasn't willing to try his best everyday and this coming from a guy who is trying to break into the lineup is not good enough. I agree with him. Send him down until he's ready to play and give 100% every night.

People complain that Kovalev is not giving 100% every night an plays 1 game out of 3, 4. Do you really want another player like that, but age 22. Not me.

Now bring Lapierre up and send Murray down.

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11-21-2006, 07:54 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
Crazy talk. I have no problem demoting Kost as long as there is parity in the process. The fact is that Kost, in addition to paying his dues in the AHL, did every bit as much as Lats to deserve a chance with the big club. Yet Lats gets priority and is given every chance imagineable to impress.

I'm not saying the latter process applied to Lats is right or wrong, just simply that if that is the standard then apply it to every prospect across the board. And by the way, Kost looked better in his first few NHL games than Lats did in his, so how the heck did Lats beat him out of the spot? Crazy talk I tell you. I'm not here to rah, rah, rah for Kost; I would make the same observation if the roles for Lats and Kost were reversed.

It's simply about parity in the process. Just imagine the same thing happening where you work, where some guy who has been at the job two years less than you and who has not demonstrated he can do the job any better than you, gets a promotion ahead of you (perhaps simply because the boss feels that somewhere down the road this fella might be able to do the job better than you). I ask you, in all honesty, how would you feel?
Given Carbonneau's comments regarding Kostitsyn's work ethic, and his comments praising Latendresse's work ethic, it seems to me Latendresse earned his spot through consistently working hard, where Kostitsyn lost his for not working hard enough.

Good players often lose spots to not-as-good players due to work ethic. Seems to be the case again here. Turnbuckle is spot on.

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11-21-2006, 08:11 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Given Carbonneau's comments regarding Kostitsyn's work ethic, and his comments praising Latendresse's work ethic, it seems to me Latendresse earned his spot through consistently working hard, where Kostitsyn lost his for not working hard enough.

Good players often lose spots to not-as-good players due to work ethic. Seems to be the case again here. Turnbuckle is spot on.
If this is indeed true, then I have no problem with that whatsoever.

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11-21-2006, 08:14 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
Crazy talk. I have no problem demoting Kost as long as there is parity in the process. The fact is that Kost, in addition to paying his dues in the AHL, did every bit as much as Lats to deserve a chance with the big club. Yet Lats gets priority and is given every chance imagineable to impress.

I'm not saying the latter process applied to Lats is right or wrong, just simply that if that is the standard then apply it to every prospect across the board. And by the way, Kost looked better in his first few NHL games than Lats did in his, so how the heck did Lats beat him out of the spot? Crazy talk I tell you. I'm not here to rah, rah, rah for Kost; I would make the same observation if the roles for Lats and Kost were reversed.

It's simply about parity in the process. Just imagine the same thing happening where you work, where some guy who has been at the job two years less than you and who has not demonstrated he can do the job any better than you, gets a promotion ahead of you (perhaps simply because the boss feels that somewhere down the road this fella might be able to do the job better than you). I ask you, in all honesty, how would you feel?
We're in the now - did Kostitsyn play better than Lats when he was called up?

Paying his dues in the AHL - are you serious? He'd be one of the least accomplished Hab AHLers ever called up permanenetly. He hasn't even hit the 20-goal mark at the AHL level, and you think he's paid his dues? The one goal he's scored this season is "paying his dues"?

Latendresse brings his all every night and adds a physical element that is tons more effective than a player who floats around 70 per cent of the time, only to look spectacular for a few seconds on occasion before failing to score. Kostitsyn starts scoring goals and he'll be put on a scoring line in Montreal. We don't have time to be screwing around because he's the "Golden Boy", thanks for coming out, but Latendresse is playing harder than him and outproducing him. He also gets it; he knows how to play hockey.



You are aware that Lats had to be kept or sent back to junior right? The Habs didn't want him to go back to old habits in junior hockey, so they made a decision to keep after he wasn't outplayed in training camp by a player two years older and picked 35 spots ahead of him. Again, Latendresse head-to-head outperformed Kostitsyn in September, so he earned his spot. He wasn't great at the start of the season playing little ice time, but neither was Kostitsyn in the minors on the top line playing piles of minutes, inconsistent as usual and not scoring.

Not sure you're aware of this, but the Habs lack a physical presence up front, and Latendresse brings it in spades. The kid is a load, and is already a lot harder to knock off his feet than most Hab forwards.

I don't think you can knock the way the Habs brought him along slowly - to say he hasn't played well since given more ice time, or improved as the season has gone along, would be false.

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11-21-2006, 08:38 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
We're in the now - did Kostitsyn play better than Lats when he was called up?

Paying his dues in the AHL - are you serious? He'd be one of the least accomplished Hab AHLers ever called up permanenetly. He hasn't even hit the 20-goal mark at the AHL level, and you think he's paid his dues? The one goal he's scored this season is "paying his dues"?

Latendresse brings his all every night and adds a physical element that is tons more effective than a player who floats around 70 per cent of the time, only to look spectacular for a few seconds on occasion before failing to score. Kostitsyn starts scoring goals and he'll be put on a scoring line in Montreal. We don't have time to be screwing around because he's the "Golden Boy", thanks for coming out, but Latendresse is playing harder than him and outproducing him. He also gets it; he knows how to play hockey.



You are aware that Lats had to be kept or sent back to junior right? The Habs didn't want him to go back to old habits in junior hockey, so they made a decision to keep after he wasn't outplayed in training camp by a player two years older and picked 35 spots ahead of him. Again, Latendresse head-to-head outperformed Kostitsyn in September, so he earned his spot. He wasn't great at the start of the season playing little ice time, but neither was Kostitsyn in the minors on the top line playing piles of minutes, inconsistent as usual and not scoring.

Not sure you're aware of this, but the Habs lack a physical presence up front, and Latendresse brings it in spades. The kid is a load, and is already a lot harder to knock off his feet than most Hab forwards.

I don't think you can knock the way the Habs brought him along slowly - to say he hasn't played well since given more ice time, or improved as the season has gone along, would be false.


amen ! very good post .

I don't know what people are looking when they watch a game , but out of the points , there are a lot of things that are important to do correctly . Latendresse , as i already said didn't play bad his first games ; he was there to get familiar with the speed and the play of the NHL . Scoring a that point wasn't the reason to be on the ice ; he was there to see how the things were going on the ice , and to played a " SAFE " game .

Once they put him with an offensive line , he answered by making points . Once again , he did what the coach was asking him to do .

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Old
11-21-2006, 09:05 PM
  #114
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Carbonneau on Kostitsyn

Anyone heard what he apparently said?

This is paraphrasing but he apparently said on "les amateurs de sports" that he wasn't ready for the NHL. He said he was disapointed with his performance and didn't think he hit enough and that he lacked intensity. He also said a veteran can take a night off once in a while but that it's unnacceptable for a young rookie to do so, and that he must be willing to battle along the boards. He also apparently said his work ethic isn't the best.

Anyone can confirm? I wouldn't be surprised, but it would definetly be disapointing.

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11-21-2006, 09:08 PM
  #115
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I agree with pretty much all of that...but Kostitsyn hardly looked any different than what Kovalev has looked like.

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11-21-2006, 09:12 PM
  #116
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he apparently said alot of things...

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11-21-2006, 09:13 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
I agree with pretty much all of that...but Kostitsyn hardly looked any different than what Kovalev has looked like.
I can't say I disagree, he's clearly done some work on his game, but there's still a lot to be desired. I'm not a believer of the "better in the NHL" notion and I don't think a player should be treated better because of his draft status. We're he not a first round pick, he wouldn't recieve the hype he has, he'd be seen as an "intruiging" prospect, which is what he is currently. I think playing on a talented Bulldogs team will help him, I don't believe this is another Hossa, he's more talented, I also don't believe the Elias/Marian Hossa hype either.

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11-21-2006, 09:14 PM
  #118
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I agree with Carbs 100%, i noticed the exact things he mentioned, no hitting, no hard puck pursuit, no intensity, he looks like he doesnt want to be there. If your a young player looking to stay with the big club you have to be working twice as hard to impress and earn your spot.

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11-21-2006, 09:27 PM
  #119
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I disagree about the "it's ok for a veteran to take a night off" statement. If a vet needs a night off than he should not dress and let someone else work hard in his place. If you want hungry rookies they need to play with hungry vets.

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11-21-2006, 09:29 PM
  #120
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I disagree about the "it's ok for a veteran to take a night off" statement. If a vet needs a night off than he should not dress and let someone else work hard in his place. If you want hungry rookies they need to play with hungry vets.
Personally I hate vets that take nights off, which is why I hate Kovalev... But I think what he really meant is that in order for a rookie to earn his spot he has to show that he's willing to go all out every night.

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11-21-2006, 09:32 PM
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He was the best player on his line? It's not enough? I know he doesnt have the best work ethic but in game he did really good. He didnt take any shift off. Hey Who did good with them this season? You cant ask a rookie to make them produce... Kostitsyn didnt slow them down for sure... Anyway.

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11-21-2006, 09:34 PM
  #122
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He was the best player on his line? It's not enough? I know he doesnt have the best work ethic but in game he did really good. He didnt take any shift off. Hey Who did good with them this season? You cant ask a rookie to make them produce... Kostitsyn didnt slow them down for sure... Anyway.
Carbonneau must of had some rose colored glasses those first few weeks watching Lats play.

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11-21-2006, 09:36 PM
  #123
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Yeah and after the scored 2 goals and didnt play great. Kostitsyn played better in the last couple of game then Latendresse IMO.

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11-21-2006, 09:37 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
We're in the now - did Kostitsyn play better than Lats when he was called up?

Paying his dues in the AHL - are you serious? He'd be one of the least accomplished Hab AHLers ever called up permanenetly. He hasn't even hit the 20-goal mark at the AHL level, and you think he's paid his dues? The one goal he's scored this season is "paying his dues"?

Latendresse brings his all every night and adds a physical element that is tons more effective than a player who floats around 70 per cent of the time, only to look spectacular for a few seconds on occasion before failing to score. Kostitsyn starts scoring goals and he'll be put on a scoring line in Montreal. We don't have time to be screwing around because he's the "Golden Boy", thanks for coming out, but Latendresse is playing harder than him and outproducing him. He also gets it; he knows how to play hockey.



You are aware that Lats had to be kept or sent back to junior right? The Habs didn't want him to go back to old habits in junior hockey, so they made a decision to keep after he wasn't outplayed in training camp by a player two years older and picked 35 spots ahead of him. Again, Latendresse head-to-head outperformed Kostitsyn in September, so he earned his spot. He wasn't great at the start of the season playing little ice time, but neither was Kostitsyn in the minors on the top line playing piles of minutes, inconsistent as usual and not scoring.

Not sure you're aware of this, but the Habs lack a physical presence up front, and Latendresse brings it in spades. The kid is a load, and is already a lot harder to knock off his feet than most Hab forwards.

I don't think you can knock the way the Habs brought him along slowly - to say he hasn't played well since given more ice time, or improved as the season has gone along, would be false.
That is EXACTLY what I think of Latendresse, thank you!!

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11-21-2006, 09:38 PM
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Little Nilan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostitsyn1489 View Post
Yeah and after the scored 2 goals and didnt play great. Kostitsyn played better in the last couple of game then Latendresse IMO.
This is where I disagree. Latendresse has shown nothing but progression since game 1, for an 19 year old, he's proving he deserves to be with the team. The jump from juniors to the NHL is a big one and so far, he's succeeded. I don't see what this has to do with Lats anyways, all of the said criticism don't apply to Latendresse.

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