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Bergevin needs to reinfornce the defense a.s.a.p.

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Old
09-20-2013, 04:21 PM
  #251
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
why does everything have to be positive ( who would you get?). How about not extending guys we dont need and then defending them by saying that they can do things they cant ?

and I'm not naive to think we can get a guy to clear the crease for nothing, and I like the addition of murray for this but his lack of foot speed is a liability. Derek engeland in pittsburgh has a chap contract that ends next year ( I think). Matt carkner signed a deal last year as a ufa for cheap. there are lots of guys who have zero offensive talent, play reasonable minutes and play physical in front of the net that wont break the bank to get them. I'm not looking for Scott Stevens mean, but something more than scott gomez mean.
too bad you don't cause that's what we got in Murray, he doesnt have the same talent obviously but when it comes to being mean, his career shows that he has it at the very least.

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09-20-2013, 04:24 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Adriatic View Post
He would beat him in the first 10 feet, after that Subban's long strides would catch up to him like nothing. Just watch Diaz when there is a lot of space behind and he has to race for the puck in a long distance, he gets outpaced regularly. Smaller guys just look faster because they take more strides.
I hear exactly what you are saying in regards to small players appearing to be quicker but I strongly disagree with your assessment of Diaz's speed. To be clear, I am not a fan of Diaz as I don't like small, soft dmen but he is easily one of the fastest skaters on the team.

I have seen Subban caught from behind numerous times in races for the puck in the d-zone. Subban is very overrated in terms of speed. He is very agile, shifty and strong on his skates but he has an ugly short, choppy stride that is reminiscent of Mark Recchi. Subban's strength is the exact opposite of what you said it is as his first few steps are explosive but he lacks the longer stride to build on that initial inertia.

People think Subban is fast because he loves to carry the puck at top speed through the neutral zone and push the play forward. The result is that he is moving faster than anyone on the ice but that is more of an ambush tactic than a race. It is for the exact same reason that people underestimate Diaz's speed as he rarely rushes the puck but for those who are paying attention, his skating is exceptional when he needs to use it.

I guarantee you that most fans would say that Subban is faster than Travis Moen.....they would be wrong again.

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09-20-2013, 04:25 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
pretty sure the Pageau of this world will try to ride the crease once or twice with Murray on the ice... and it will be painful enough they wont do it again.

Everyone know he's slow and can be beat from the outside and al' but most also know the crease will leave a sheerwood taste in the mouth of those who go there too often when he's on the ice to protect it.
so your okay playing musical chairs with deficiencies ? that we can trade " beat to the outside" for " clear the net" ?

And I've always been a fan of the murray signing because having something is better than nothing and it at least gives us thew option of having tinordi in hamilton, Ideally I'd love to have a guy like murray but not as slow but that's not what some people are arguing, they are saying we are good as it is. There are guys of this ilk out there but if they are UFA the appologists scream " too expensive" and if they are not they say " cant risk the pospects" so teams keep exploiting our existant and persistant vulnerabilities and we get manhandled in the playoffs, again.

If you are fine with this, you have a far stronger constitution than I do.

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Old
09-20-2013, 04:32 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
why does everything have to be positive ( who would you get?). How about not extending guys we dont need and then defending them by saying that they can do things they cant ?

and I'm not naive to think we can get a guy to clear the crease for nothing, and I like the addition of murray for this but his lack of foot speed is a liability. Derek engeland in pittsburgh has a chap contract that ends next year ( I think). Matt carkner signed a deal last year as a ufa for cheap. there are lots of guys who have zero offensive talent, play reasonable minutes and play physical in front of the net that wont break the bank to get them. I'm not looking for Scott Stevens mean, but something more than scott gomez mean.
I would take Murray over Engelland and Carkner easily. He is a much smarter dman and all three of these players are slow.

There is little benefit in having dmen who fight a lot as it really screws things up when a defenceman is in the box for extended periods. Murray is nasty in front of the net and is a better hockey player than either of these goons.

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09-20-2013, 04:34 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
too bad you don't cause that's what we got in Murray, he doesnt have the same talent obviously but when it comes to being mean, his career shows that he has it at the very least.
If murray is compared to both chara and stevens in this thead, i pre-emptively compare myself Brad pitt when it comes to the ladies.

it is anything goes day, right ?

( and I like murray but lets not get carried away here)

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Old
09-20-2013, 04:37 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
Are you serious? you're griping about a 2 year 4 millions per deal for Brière and don't mind a Clarkson 7 years/5.25 millions per to a player that never gave more than 48 points in a season. Because hey! if he can give us 3 good years out of 7 it will be worth it!

Talk about the grass being greener at your neighbours house.
If we're going to overpay for someone I'd rather overpay for the player who addresses a need then overpay someone who doesn't.

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If we can prove to stay at the top where we were in a 48 game season, sure you're absolutely right to go for it. Right now, we HAVE veteran presence and we just finished 1 full season at the bottom of the standing and 1 half-season near the top. That's hardly a perennial contender.

I blame the fan's impatience to short attention span's and the internet for instant gratification!

Signed Old Man Zathronas
If Bergevin is unconviced that we are a good team then we should've kept the cap space free and waited for a better opportunity. If half way through next season he realizes we actually are a good team we won't have the space to acquire players to address our needs and so we've wasted a couple of years.

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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Alzner and Holtby are only 24, Carlson 23. A little early to be writing them off.
They are good players no doubt, the point I was making was that Washington had a excellent window to go for it but decided to wait for them to develop in order to fill the needs. Now that they have developed they don't have as good a window anymore.

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09-20-2013, 04:39 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
If murray is compared to both chara and stevens in this thead, i pre-emptively compare myself Brad pitt when it comes to the ladies.

it is anything goes day, right ?

( and I like murray but lets not get carried away here)
Nobody has made those comparison's as a whole. They have only compared a single aspect (wrongly so) of these player's respective skillset to Murray.

You could have Brad Pitt's nose but still strike out with the ladies.....

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09-20-2013, 04:42 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I would take Murray over Engelland and Carkner easily. He is a much smarter dman and all three of these players are slow.

There is little benefit in having dmen who fight a lot as it really screws things up when a defenceman is in the box for extended periods. Murray is nasty in front of the net and is a better hockey player than either of these goons.
its not only about fights, but both carkner and engelland are better pugilistically and although neither are speed demons, they are not as slow as Murray. They also can clear the crease, and I think that carkner is about murrays age, engelland is younger if I remember right ( just checked murray 33, carkner 32, and engelland 31). I'm not even sure that murray will be here next year, if we had signed carkner for the same deal the isles did, we even with all of his liabilities we wouldnt be asking " whos going to clear the front of the net" for the next three years ?

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09-20-2013, 04:50 PM
  #259
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I would agree only if we dump Drewiske. But for now, Drewiske is filling that roster spot.

Subban
Markov
Gorges
Diaz
Bouillon-x
Murray-x
Drewiske-x
Emelin-xx

Tinordi
Pateryn
Beaulieu
Dietz


Last edited by LLoyd Christmas I: 09-20-2013 at 05:04 PM.
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Old
09-20-2013, 04:59 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
its not only about fights, but both carkner and engelland are better pugilistically and although neither are speed demons, they are not as slow as Murray. They also can clear the crease, and I think that carkner is about murrays age, engelland is younger if I remember right ( just checked murray 33, carkner 32, and engelland 31). I'm not even sure that murray will be here next year, if we had signed carkner for the same deal the isles did, we even with all of his liabilities we wouldnt be asking " whos going to clear the front of the net" for the next three years ?
Engelland and Carkner are terrible dmen. Both players are strictly goons and Engelland was a healthy scratch for more than half of Pittsburgh's playoff games. Care to take a guess which dman pushed Engelland off of the roster?

Murray is a smart dman much in the same way that Gill was for us. The most important asset for an NHL defenceman is his hockey sense and decision making. There is no comparison between 7th defenceman types like Engelland and Carkner with defensive stalwarts like Murray who has the body of work to back it up.

It would be even more foolish to commit 3 years to garbage like these two players. Murray is on a one year deal as is Bouillon and MB appears to have set the table to make room for prospects and/or acquire a defender that isn't a stop gap solution.

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09-20-2013, 05:06 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Engelland and Carkner are terrible dmen. Both players are strictly goons and Engelland was a healthy scratch for more than half of Pittsburgh's playoff games. Care to take a guess which dman pushed Engelland off of the roster?

Murray is a smart dman much in the same way that Gill was for us. The most important asset for an NHL defenceman is his hockey sense and decision making. There is no comparison between 7th defenceman types like Engelland and Carkner with defensive stalwarts like Murray who has the body of work to back it up.

It would be even more foolish to commit 3 years to garbage like these two players. Murray is on a one year deal as is Bouillon and MB appears to have set the table to make room for prospects and/or acquire a defender that isn't a stop gap solution.
we dont need hall gill again. he was big ( and blocked shots like a demon) but soft. And murray could takes engellands time on the pens, but WE ARE NOT THE PENS. Context matters. If we are looking for a guy who can play tough, about 15 min +/- 3 clear the net who wont get exposed to the outside, I'd take engelland.

And even though engelland fights, he does not need to fight to do what we ask of him and he's 2 years younger and likely cheaper. I'm sure that eric karlsson was lamenting how " goonish" matt carkner was when boyle decided to take some liberties on EK in the playoffs.

I dont deny that murray might have more hockey smarts, but hockey smarts is not what we are looking for. we need guys to clear the net and be a physical presence. Are these guys ideal ? no.

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Old
09-20-2013, 05:14 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I dont deny that murray might have more hockey smarts, but hockey smarts is not what we are looking for. we need guys to clear the net and be a physical presence. Are these guys ideal ? no.
??? That's exactly what Murray does best. Carkner and Engelland are not upgrades. Habs need a top 4 talent but it aint happening they don't fall out of the sky. We will live with what we have and hope for great development from Tinordi, Beaulieu and Pateryn.

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09-20-2013, 05:18 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
we dont need hall gill again. he was big ( and blocked shots like a demon) but soft. And murray could takes engellands time on the pens, but WE ARE NOT THE PENS. Context matters. If we are looking for a guy who can play tough, about 15 min +/- 3 clear the net who wont get exposed to the outside, I'd take engelland.

And even though engelland fights, he does not need to fight to do what we ask of him and he's 2 years younger and likely cheaper. I'm sure that eric karlsson was lamenting how " goonish" matt carkner was when boyle decided to take some liberties on EK in the playoffs.

I dont deny that murray might have more hockey smarts, but hockey smarts is not what we are looking for. we need guys to clear the net and be a physical presence. Are these guys ideal ? no.
Murray is better than Engelland at clearing the front of the net. Engelland also is easily beat to the outside as he is a poor skater, at least Murray has the hockey sense to anticipate these situations and react earlier to them.

The only aspect of the game that Engelland may be more effective in is the pugilistic one. Murray has him in absolutely every other area which is why the Pens felt the need to upgrade on Engelland by acquiring Murray in the first place. Engelland is actually closer to AHL quality but the Pens salary structure forces them to employ cheap help like this.

Comparing Engelland to Murray is an apple to apple comparison that both Shero and Bylsma had easily in Murray's favour. Every ounce of evidence that we have supports this conclusion.

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09-20-2013, 05:42 PM
  #264
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No, keep it the way it is and draft within the top 10. Continue for next year as well. Then, Trade for missing key players with draft picks and/or prospects. Then, enjoy the Cup(s).

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09-20-2013, 05:42 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by LLoyd Christmas I View Post
I would agree only if we dump Drewiske. But for now, Drewiske is filling that roster spot.

Subban
Markov
Gorges
Diaz
Bouillon-x
Murray-x
Drewiske-x
Emelin-xx

Tinordi
Pateryn
Beaulieu
Dietz
With his injury Drewiske's fate may have been sealed. He won't be taking up a roster spot for a wahile and his future could depend upon how is replacements play

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09-20-2013, 05:46 PM
  #266
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No, keep it the way it is and draft within the top 10. Continue for next year as well. Then, Trade for missing key players with draft picks and/or prospects. Then, enjoy the Cup(s).
Should've done that last year to maximize our earnings, this draft isn't nearly the same calibre as the last one.

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09-20-2013, 05:56 PM
  #267
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It's impossible to finish in the bottom 10, the current roster without adjustment is already way past that. This is a playoff team no matter what imo.

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09-20-2013, 06:07 PM
  #268
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There's just nothing he can do anymore imho. He's gonna have to go down with the ship. If the ship does go down then the lesson is all the wrong signings and lack of opportunity for trading (at the draft and beyond).

They should just practice having confidence in the players they draft.

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09-20-2013, 06:12 PM
  #269
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It's impossible to finish in the bottom 10, the current roster without adjustment is already way past that.
Famous last words.

The league is very evenly matched.... nothing is impossible.

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09-20-2013, 06:21 PM
  #270
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Famous last words.

The league is very evenly matched.... nothing is impossible.
Sure, you get my point though, which is, with the current roster, fishing for lottery picks is not an option.

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09-20-2013, 06:30 PM
  #271
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Sure, you get my point though, which is, with the current roster, fishing for lottery picks is not an option.
Ahhh... yes, thanks. Fishing for lottery picks is not an option. It is going to take careful asset management and player development to get to the top.

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09-20-2013, 06:32 PM
  #272
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Sure, you get my point though, which is, with the current roster, fishing for lottery picks is not an option.
Nothing is impossible, but it would be a major disappointment if we didn't make the POs, let alone get a lotto pick.

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09-20-2013, 07:08 PM
  #273
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Franson isn't a bad player, but if he is your #2 d-man you're a bad hockey team. If he's a #2 then so is Diaz.
agreed on Franson , but Diaz on a top 4 is really a bad team

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09-20-2013, 07:31 PM
  #274
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If we're going to overpay for someone I'd rather overpay for the player who addresses a need then overpay someone who doesn't.



If Bergevin is unconviced that we are a good team then we should've kept the cap space free and waited for a better opportunity. If half way through next season he realizes we actually are a good team we won't have the space to acquire players to address our needs and so we've wasted a couple of years.



They are good players no doubt, the point I was making was that Washington had a excellent window to go for it but decided to wait for them to develop in order to fill the needs. Now that they have developed they don't have as good a window anymore.
Now you're being obtuse. can you at least wait and see first before deciding we're in the gutters by signing 1 top 6 and 2 peripherals?
What you want is gratification and you want it now!

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09-20-2013, 08:11 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
Now you're being obtuse. can you at least wait and see first before deciding we're in the gutters by signing 1 top 6 and 2 peripherals?
What you want is gratification and you want it now!
What are you even talking about. You're the one claiming we are not close to being a contender and we have to continue to rebuild. I've been arguing we should be going for it not because I want instant gratification but because I think we actually are a very good team. We have one big weakness (Lack of a big shutdown top-4 defenceman) and one small weakness (Lack of size in the top-6), neither will prevent us from making the playoffs, and I suspect we will even challenge for the division. But come playoff time we will struggle because we'll have a hard time closing out games, and if we run into a hot goalie we'll have trouble solving him since we can't effectively crash the net.

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