HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

If Markov retired tomorrow, would you want the Habs to retire his number?

View Poll Results: If Markov retired tomorrow, would you want the Habs to retire his number?
Yes 47 17.41%
No 223 82.59%
Voters: 270. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-21-2013, 08:51 AM
  #101
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,070
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
My sons been surprising me for 2 yrs now, where and how he digs up some of the reading material he digs up is beyond me. I'll never forget the day he came home with a book about Maurice Richard and tenacity
come on now...

ECWHSWI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 08:57 AM
  #102
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,070
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Man crush much?

Some people have an issue facing reality, and will spin and spin and spin until they line things up the way they see fit.

Truth of the matter is the standards were set a long time ago, to loosen them now would be sacrilege in the eyes of many(myself included). I for one, am against it. Place him in the ring of honor, erect a statue to commemorate the most deserving Masterton trophy winner ever. Do not, however, tell me that he stands on his body of work, cancer aside, with this storied team's greats.

He was arguably the best player on really bad teams, does this warrant a number being retired? Where's all the hardware that the others have won? If you are from a generation where medals were awarded for participation perhaps he merits consideration. I for one don't think so.
guys like Houle, Lupien, Bouchard Tremblay and co are thanking Lafleur and the big 3 every morning for the hardware they won...

I have yet to see you call them for what they were, wich is -> average players at best.

ECWHSWI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 09:07 AM
  #103
macavoy
Registered User
 
macavoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston, Tx
Country: United States
Posts: 7,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hate to tell you, but he's a poor reader if he's apparently so "avid", yet hasn't come across the 10th leading scorer all-time, the longest serving captain in history, and the first European captain in club history... the one who came back from cancer once, and again after almost losing an eye, to pass names like Lach, Naslund, Moore, Provost, Lapointe, Mahovlich, and Blake on the Habs' all-time scorers list - all passed after the 2006 Carolina series.
lol @ trying to bash a 10 year old and calling him a poor reader to try get your point across.

Keep up the good work.

macavoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 09:09 AM
  #104
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 22,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Man crush much?
What does that have to do with anything I just wrote? Nothing. But yeah, guys like Koivu are hard to love as a fan...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
Some people have an issue facing reality, and will spin and spin and spin until they line things up the way they see fit.

Truth of the matter is the standards were set a long time ago, to loosen them now would be sacrilege in the eyes of many(myself included). I for one, am against it. Place him in the ring of honor, erect a statue to commemorate the most deserving Masterton trophy winner ever. Do not, however, tell me that he stands on his body of work, cancer aside, with this storied team's greats.
Considering how bad the team was over pretty much Koivu's entire tenure, and that it spans the entirety of the dead puck era, I think it's impressive how many of those "storied greats" are looking up at Koivu on the all-time scoring list. You don't have to be impressed. In fact, I'd expect you to actively speak out against those who ARE, as we're seeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
He was arguably the best player on really bad teams, does this warrant a number being retired? Where's all the hardware that the others have won? If you are from a generation where medals were awarded for participation perhaps he merits consideration. I for one don't think so.
Koivu represents blood, sweat and tears just as much as Clark did to Leafs fans - to every Habs fan outside Montreal who didn't wish he had a French last name, of course. And Clark has even less everything to show for it. Not saying that should get his jersey retired without debate. Just saying that makes him far more relevant than the afterthought you'd prefer to treat him as.

Ohashi_Jouzu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 09:11 AM
  #105
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 22,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
lol @ trying to bash a 10 year old and calling him a poor reader to try get your point across.

Keep up the good work.
Pipe down in the peanut gallery unless you're going to get the facts straight. He's 8 and "avid".

Ohashi_Jouzu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 09:34 AM
  #106
ClasslessGuy
Registered User
 
ClasslessGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: St-Jean, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,652
vCash: 567
No, Koivu first

ClasslessGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 10:17 AM
  #107
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 49,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
if the Habs were to go with your standards, there would be no more retired jerseys, ever.
Not necessarily. Not that it would be too much of a problem has, in the end, jersey retiring SHOULD be given to extra special players. Not just great ones who could be remembered in other fashion. But you have a player like Subban, who in his career, happens to win 5 Norris trophies, always one of the top d-man of the league, racks up the points and win 2 or 3 Cups over a 15-year career....he might fit the "new" standards 'cause it would be an exceptionnal in his own way.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:01 AM
  #108
Sorinth
Registered User
 
Sorinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,879
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Look at the bolds above.

This sums up everything wrong with this thread, and the lack of knowledge of history, and the greatness that are the Montreal Canadiens, on this board.

Le Club de Hockey Canadien retires the number of a player at their own discretion.

It has nothing to do with you or me, or anyone else. They are a private Hockey club, and they set their own standards.

People like you will ruin this privacy, because you insist on being involved, and you're such an important FAN.

Facebook generation: We know BEST! We NEED to have a SAY! It's all about US!

Know your boundaries. You are a fan, not a member to the Club De Hockey Canadien. They don't care about your opinion. And they should not.
Wow. What an ignorant post. If you don't think retiring jerseys is about the fans then I don't know what to say.

By the way I love all the assumptions about my age, facebook, and where I work. Especially since I don't use facebook, and have in the past worked for the Club De Hockey Canadien.

Sorinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:09 AM
  #109
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,037
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not necessarily. Not that it would be too much of a problem has, in the end, jersey retiring SHOULD be given to extra special players. Not just great ones who could be remembered in other fashion. But you have a player like Subban, who in his career, happens to win 5 Norris trophies, always one of the top d-man of the league, racks up the points and win 2 or 3 Cups over a 15-year career....he might fit the "new" standards 'cause it would be an exceptionnal in his own way.
I think only exceptional talents, that spent a significant amount of their careers here, should have the honor of getting their jersey removed.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:14 AM
  #110
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Time to be more strict as to who gets his jersey retire. I thought they made a couple of mistakes, no need to make some more. At best, both Markov and Saku could be in the ring of honors. But at some point, while it might not be their fault, unless you didn't totally dominate your sport, like Marcel Dionne or Gilbert Perreault did, you don't see your jersey being retired. Your jersey is retired because you were a KEY player in KEY teams in history. They might have been very good players....but their teams were average to say the least. So it will be tougher now to see jersey being retired as you will not see a whole lot of dynasties anymore like we used to see before and frankly, that's fine with me. Still needs some jerseys to wear. But let's learn from our mistakes to not make them ever again. For the purpose of the discussion, jerseys I would not have retired would have been: Bouchard, Geoffrion, Moore, Cournoyer and Gainey. All great players....but when you then compare them to the others, it's not in the same category. And like somebody said....you could even have a case for Jacques Lemaire, WAY more than Koivu and Markov.

And if you bring it to another level, you could have only retired the likes of Plante, Harvey, Béliveau, Maurice Richard, Lafleur, Henri Richard who in the end takes care of each position and represents the greatness of this team.

Was not going to ask for retiring his jersey...but searching for things I cam across this moment I will never forget....sad in a way, but so touching in other ways. And to see all those greats still living from Blake to Harvey to Plante.....this was just awesome to see.

Joliats number is indirectly retired. And better does - arguably the best player at its position.

I sort of agree with your reasoning as a whole. Geoffrion should be in though (and Lach out ?)

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:17 AM
  #111
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 49,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think only exceptional talents, that spent a significant amount of their careers here, should have the honor of getting their jersey removed.
Absolutely. With the only exception that made Dryden be in. Record was so exceptional that 7 years was okay. Honestly, at first, I wasn't too sure because of that...but you couldn't ignore the role he had in such an historic period of the Habs history.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:21 AM
  #112
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,220
vCash: 500
Steve Shutt and Guy Lapointe haven't got their jerseys retired.

Absolutely no way that Markov or Koivu should be considered. Are we going to retire Mats Naslund too?

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:21 AM
  #113
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,037
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
What does that have to do with anything I just wrote? Nothing. But yeah, guys like Koivu are hard to love as a fan...

Considering how bad the team was over pretty much Koivu's entire tenure, and that it spans the entirety of the dead puck era, I think it's impressive how many of those "storied greats" are looking up at Koivu on the all-time scoring list. You don't have to be impressed. In fact, I'd expect you to actively speak out against those who ARE, as we're seeing.

Koivu represents blood, sweat and tears just as much as Clark did to Leafs fans - to every Habs fan outside Montreal who didn't wish he had a French last name, of course. And Clark has even less everything to show for it. Not saying that should get his jersey retired without debate. Just saying that makes him far more relevant than the afterthought you'd prefer to treat him as.
I have nothing but love for Koivu, and am still hoping that we sign him to a one year deal so he can retire as a habs, as he should. However, I wouldn't want his jersey retired. If Plekanec plays his whole career here, he'll likely be in the top 5 for games as a Hab, maybe even top 3. Same with points.

I know Koivu's accomplishments are more impressive because of his battles with health, and he Captain the Habs worst days in history. But I don't think that warrants a jersey retirement. I'm all for a unique and special way to commemorate him, a plate, trophy, wtv new idea they have..

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:26 AM
  #114
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,260
vCash: 500
By the way, if being European somehow makes Koivu a candidate for jersey retirement, why isn't Mats Naslund more seriously considered ?

I mean , Naslund was the first and also the better player...

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:31 AM
  #115
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,220
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I have nothing but love for Koivu, and am still hoping that we sign him to a one year deal so he can retire as a habs, as he should. However, I wouldn't want his jersey retired. If Plekanec plays his whole career here, he'll likely be in the top 5 for games as a Hab, maybe even top 3. Same with points.

I know Koivu's accomplishments are more impressive because of his battles with health, and he Captain the Habs worst days in history. But I don't think that warrants a jersey retirement. I'm all for a unique and special way to commemorate him, a plate, trophy, wtv new idea they have..
"Well,

He had one season where he was above a point per game. He never had any real accomplishment of any kind. He was nowhere near an exceptional player in the league. But he was here a really long time and sometimes we even made the playoffs with him.

So ladies and gentlemen, please welcome.... Saku Koivu."

Yeah, I don't think so.


Shutt, Lapointe... sure. Even Guy Carbonneau I could get behind though I don't think that would be right either. Forget Koivu and Markov though. It would really cheapen the honour.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:32 AM
  #116
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 22,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
By the way, if being European somehow makes Koivu a candidate for jersey retirement, why isn't Mats Naslund more seriously considered ?

I mean , Naslund was the first and also the better player...
Obvious answers? Never the captain (let alone with the longest tenure in club history), nor a top 10 scorer all-time. But my original favourite Hab nonetheless. I wouldn't want to defend your side of the "better player" opinion, either. Once you adjust his scoring for era, you see that's he's no better than the 0.80-0.90 PPG player Koivu was as an "under-sized" player during the DPE. Then there's winger vs centre skill sets, draft pedigree, international play, etc, etc. I personally think Saku's case is much stronger than Mats' - and I've seen the entire careers of both.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 09-21-2013 at 11:50 AM.
Ohashi_Jouzu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:48 AM
  #117
Sorinth
Registered User
 
Sorinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,879
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
"Well,

He had one season where he was above a point per game. He never had any real accomplishment of any kind. He was nowhere near an exceptional player in the league. But he was here a really long time and sometimes we even made the playoffs with him.

So ladies and gentlemen, please welcome.... Saku Koivu."

Yeah, I don't think so.


Shutt, Lapointe... sure. Even Guy Carbonneau I could get behind though I don't think that would be right either. Forget Koivu and Markov though. It would really cheapen the honour.
If points are what matter then Markov should be a shoe-in because he's top-3 in scoring for defenceman. And he did that in low scoring eras on terrible teams which makes it even more impressive.

People talk about cheapening what it means if someone like Koivu makes it. Personally I think having some formula based on points multiplied by cup rings would cheapen it way more. You retire a players number because of what they meant to the team and it's fans. Koivu was the heart and soul of the team for 10+ years. For Markov even though he put up all those points he never had that same kind of emotional connection with the fans.

Sorinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:52 AM
  #118
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Obvious answers? Never the captain (let alone with the longest tenure in club history), nor a top 10 scorer all-time. But my original favourite Hab nonetheless. I wouldn't want to defend your side of the "better player" opinion, either. Once you adjust his scoring for era, you see that's he's no better than the 0.80-0.90 PPG player Koivu was as an "under-sized" player during the DPE. Then there's winger vs centre skill sets, draft pedigree, international play, etc, etc. I personally think Saku's case is much stronger than Mats'.
Eye-ball test for who's better. Simple as that. For the record, I'd be strongly against Naslund's jersey retirement. A bit too short of A career.Best offensive player of the team in an era were we were definitely more defenses oriented that the whole league. But far from enough.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 11:56 AM
  #119
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If points are what matter then Markov should be a shoe-in because he's top-3 in scoring for defenceman. And he did that in low scoring eras on terrible teams which makes it even more impressive.

People talk about cheapening what it means if someone like Koivu makes it. Personally I think having some formula based on points multiplied by cup rings would cheapen it way more. You retire a players number because of what they meant to the team and it's fans. Koivu was the heart and soul of the team for 10+ years. For Markov even though he put up all those points he never had that same kind of emotional connection with the fans.
Koivu was just not good enough. Top-10 scoring? Useless. All the guys that made it were amongst top at their position is n the league.l, with the notable exception of Gainey. Who is the best defensive winger of all time according to many people and who won the CS.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 12:00 PM
  #120
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,220
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If points are what matter then Markov should be a shoe-in because he's top-3 in scoring for defenceman. And he did that in low scoring eras on terrible teams which makes it even more impressive.

People talk about cheapening what it means if someone like Koivu makes it. Personally I think having some formula based on points multiplied by cup rings would cheapen it way more. You retire a players number because of what they meant to the team and it's fans. Koivu was the heart and soul of the team for 10+ years. For Markov even though he put up all those points he never had that same kind of emotional connection with the fans.
Neither one has any business being in a discussion about jersey retirements.

I couldn't care less if Koivu was the heart and soul of bad teams for over a decade. Just makes him the best of a bad lot. As for Markov, he had a few really great years but he's not an exceptional talent. No awards of any kind for either player. No cups (not even a visit to the finals), neither are anywhere close to HOF players... why are we even talking about these guys?

No. Just no.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 12:24 PM
  #121
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 10,696
vCash: 500
I'd say that you have to compare a player relative to his era. Saying saku or marky shouldnt have their jerseys retired because lemaire's isn't or that they're not in same category as all the ones that are up there akready is disingenuous, if that's your standard, then nobody will ever have their jerseys retired

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 12:26 PM
  #122
29dryden29
Registered User
 
29dryden29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,983
vCash: 500
NO he isn't number retiring worthy a this point in time.

29dryden29 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 12:30 PM
  #123
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,915
vCash: 500
Retired today? Probably not. But if he plays 4-5 more seasons, cracks 1000 games with the Habs, ends up with another 150-200 points, he really should be considered. 1000 games with one team + ~600 points is a pretty impressive feat worthy of recognition.

Watsatheo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 12:33 PM
  #124
Sorinth
Registered User
 
Sorinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,879
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Neither one has any business being in a discussion about jersey retirements.

I couldn't care less if Koivu was the heart and soul of bad teams for over a decade. Just makes him the best of a bad lot. As for Markov, he had a few really great years but he's not an exceptional talent. No awards of any kind for either player. No cups (not even a visit to the finals), neither are anywhere close to HOF players... why are we even talking about these guys?

No. Just no.
So what any player that scores x points, wins y trophies, and z stanley cups should get retired?

You win a stanley cup as a team, many great players never won the cup and many lesser players have. I guess if you were LA you'd chose to retire Stanley Cup champion Drewiskie over Gretzky since Drewiskie did what the great one couldn't win a cup in L.A.

Sorinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-21-2013, 12:35 PM
  #125
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 23,220
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not necessarily. Not that it would be too much of a problem has, in the end, jersey retiring SHOULD be given to extra special players. Not just great ones who could be remembered in other fashion. But you have a player like Subban, who in his career, happens to win 5 Norris trophies, always one of the top d-man of the league, racks up the points and win 2 or 3 Cups over a 15-year career....he might fit the "new" standards 'cause it would be an exceptionnal in his own way.
PK Subban looks like he'll have a truly special career. It's obviously way too early to be talking about his jersey getting retired but he's an exceptional talent and he's been improving season by season. The 2011-12 season was really fun to watch him evolve. As I said before, he's proven to have HOF talent. I don't think Markov had this. Markov falls into the category of the very good. But he's not superstar material the way Subban is.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:48 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.