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If Markov retired tomorrow, would you want the Habs to retire his number?

View Poll Results: If Markov retired tomorrow, would you want the Habs to retire his number?
Yes 47 17.41%
No 223 82.59%
Voters: 270. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-21-2013, 11:43 AM
  #126
MXD
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
I'd say that you have to compare a player relative to his era. Saying saku or marky shouldnt have their jerseys retired because lemaire's isn't or that they're not in same category as all the ones that are up there akready is disingenuous, if that's your standard, then nobody will ever have their jerseys retired
Thé problem with that? Relative to his contemporaries, Lemaire was better than Koivu. And Lemaire has no business in the rafters.

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Old
09-21-2013, 11:44 AM
  #127
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
So what any player that scores x points, wins y trophies, and z stanley cups should get retired?

You win a stanley cup as a team, many great players never won the cup and many lesser players have. I guess if you were LA you'd chose to retire Stanley Cup champion Drewiskie over Gretzky since Drewiskie did what the great one couldn't win a cup in L.A.
Should we get out our calculators and create objective standards for this?

Steve Shutt and Lapointe are HOF players. I think that at the very least you should have this on your resume before being considered. Carbonneau (not a HOFer) was the best defensive forward of his generation and at least has Selkes and Cups behind him... I'd say he's a much better candidate than Markov.

Markov just isn't in this class of player. I don't care if he racks up more points over time... not a HOF resume and not the kind of guy who should be retired.

As a point of reference let's compare him to Guy Lapointe (who doesn't even have his jersey retired yet.)


Lapointe:
HOF
6 Stanley Cups
1st team all-star x1
2nd team all-star x2

Markov
Not a HOF career (no chance)
0 Cups (0 Cup appearances)
0 all-star selections

If Lapointe (who has a significantly better resume) can't get his jersey retired, how does Markov warrant any consideration at all?

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Old
09-21-2013, 11:46 AM
  #128
nyhabsfan
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Originally Posted by NewbieOfGames View Post
Yeah, and with this, why not retire Kovalev number.
Dear lord I hope that comment is dripping with Sacrasm!

I think the only number worth retiring would be carbonneau...but lack of names is a direct function of the lack of cups in the last 20 years.

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Old
09-21-2013, 11:55 AM
  #129
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by nyhabsfan View Post
Dear lord I hope that comment is dripping with Sacrasm!

I think the only number worth retiring would be carbonneau...but lack of names is a direct function of the lack of cups in the last 20 years.
In my opinion Guy Carbonneau should be in the HOF. Best defensive forward for about a decade. I've never seen anyone dive in front of pucks the way he did. 3 cups, head to head vs Gretzky for one of them... 3 Selke awards.

He's a HOFer. Should be anyway.

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Old
09-21-2013, 11:57 AM
  #130
Sorinth
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Should we get out our calculators and create objective standards for this?

Steve Shutt and Lapointe are HOF players. I think that at the very least you should have this on your resume before being considered. Carbonneau (not a HOFer) was the best defensive forward of his generation and at least has Selkes and Cups behind him... I'd say he's a much better candidate than Markov.

Markov just isn't in this class of player. I don't care if he racks up more points over time... not a HOF resume and not the kind of guy who should be retired.

As a point of reference let's compare him to Guy Lapointe (who doesn't even have his jersey retired yet.)


Lapointe:
HOF
6 Stanley Cups
1st team all-star x1
2nd team all-star x2

Markov
Not a HOF career (no chance)
0 Cups (0 Cup appearances)
0 all-star selections

If Lapointe (who has a significantly better resume) can't get his jersey retired, how does Markov warrant any consideration at all?
This is exactly my point. If we only look at the numbers then guys like Lapointe and others probably deserves it. But you don't retire a player because he put up numbers, you retire a player's number because of what he did for the team and what he meant to the fans. That's why Koivu deserves it, he carried the team on his back for a decade. Markov on the other hand is in the same class as Lapointe, he has some nice numbers but not the emotional connection needed.

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Old
09-21-2013, 12:04 PM
  #131
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
This is exactly my point. If we only look at the numbers then guys like Lapointe and others probably deserves it. But you don't retire a player because he put up numbers, you retire a player's number because of what he did for the team and what he meant to the fans. That's why Koivu deserves it, he carried the team on his back for a decade. Markov on the other hand is in the same class as Lapointe, he has some nice numbers but not the emotional connection needed.
Neither one of them warrant it. Koivu may have carried this team on his back but he didn't carry them anywhere. Half the time we didn't even make the playoffs.

And you're talking from a position of bias. You like Koivu and he meant more to you than Markov did? Okay. Others will disagree.

Neither one of them deserve being in this conversation though because neither one has had the kind of career that warrants the honour. Markov is similar to Kaberle and Koivu at his best wasn't as good as Mats Naslund.

Lapointe and Shutt? Yes. Carbonneau? Sure. That's about it until (hopefully) some of our current players warrant the honour. The mid to late 90s and 00s are an era we should be trying to forget. Last thing I need is to come into the arena and have those seasons brought up as a reminder of how far this franchise fell during those years.

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Old
09-21-2013, 12:10 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
In my opinion Guy Carbonneau should be in the HOF. Best defensive forward for about a decade. I've never seen anyone dive in front of pucks the way he did. 3 cups, head to head vs Gretzky for one of them... 3 Selke awards.

He's a HOFer. Should be anyway.
HOFer?
Absolutely and without a doubt
He defined his position/role for a decade.

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Old
09-21-2013, 12:11 PM
  #133
Sorinth
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Neither one of them warrant it. Koivu may have carried this team on his back but he didn't carry them anywhere. Half the time we didn't even make the playoffs.

And you're talking from a position of bias. You like Koivu and he meant more to you than Markov did? Okay. Others will disagree.

Neither one of them deserve being in this conversation though because neither one has had the kind of career that warrants the honour. Markov is similar to Kaberle and Koivu at his best wasn't as good as Mats Naslund.

Lapointe and Shutt? Yes. Carbonneau? Sure. That's about it until (hopefully) some of our current players warrant the honour. The mid to late 90s and 00s are an era we should be trying to forget. Last thing I need is to come into the arena and have those seasons brought up as a reminder of how far this franchise fell during those years.
And if it was Lafleur on those teams instead of Koivu, nothing changes, the team still goes nowhere. Saying a player does or doesn't deserve to be honoured based on his teammates is incredibly dumb.

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Old
09-21-2013, 12:14 PM
  #134
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Whoever voted yes is insane. There's even a select few up there that I don't think should be, and they are all far superior to Markov.

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Old
09-21-2013, 12:25 PM
  #135
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
And if it was Lafleur on those teams instead of Koivu, nothing changes, the team still goes nowhere. Saying a player does or doesn't deserve to be honoured based on his teammates is incredibly dumb.
Except that Lafleur was the best player in the league and a prime reason why we won all those cups. PK Subban for example might never lead our team anywhere but if he wins three Norrises and goes to the HOF then that's fine.

It's not just that Koivu didn't lead this team anywhere (I was just responding to your argument on that) it's that he wasn't an exceptional player and didn't have an exceptional career. Guy Lafleur was the first player in NHL history (and is still one of only three) to have six straight 50 goal 100 point seasons. He's one of the greatest players in history and is a big reason why the Habs won those cups to begin with.

If say Marcel Dionne was going to get his jersey retired (never led his team anywhere) nobody would object. But Saku Koivu???? No.

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Old
09-21-2013, 12:27 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
And if it was Lafleur on those teams instead of Koivu, nothing changes, the team still goes nowhere. Saying a player does or doesn't deserve to be honoured based on his teammates is incredibly dumb.
The difference ? A few more Art Ross and Harts along the way. And more players lining up to play here. And more people in the stands.

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09-21-2013, 12:36 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Should we get out our calculators and create objective standards for this?

Steve Shutt and Lapointe are HOF players. I think that at the very least you should have this on your resume before being considered. Carbonneau (not a HOFer) was the best defensive forward of his generation and at least has Selkes and Cups behind him... I'd say he's a much better candidate than Markov.

Markov just isn't in this class of player. I don't care if he racks up more points over time... not a HOF resume and not the kind of guy who should be retired.

As a point of reference let's compare him to Guy Lapointe (who doesn't even have his jersey retired yet.)


Lapointe:
HOF
6 Stanley Cups
1st team all-star x1
2nd team all-star x2

Markov
Not a HOF career (no chance)
0 Cups (0 Cup appearances)
0 all-star selections

If Lapointe (who has a significantly better resume) can't get his jersey retired, how does Markov warrant any consideration at all?
Agree with your post but this part is incorrect. 2007-8.

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Old
09-21-2013, 01:08 PM
  #138
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Lafleur would have drank himself to death playing on the teams markov played for.


Stanley Cups being necessary for individual honors makes absolutely 0 sense.

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09-21-2013, 01:54 PM
  #139
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On a team with the history that the Canadiens have being a HOFer has to be the absolute minimum requirement to have your number retired.

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09-21-2013, 02:14 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Franck View Post
On a team with the history that the Canadiens have being a HOFer has to be the absolute minimum requirement to have your number retired.
The guy is top 5 in d-man scoring in Habs history and in points with 233 less GP then the man in 4th and a 13 point gap to 4th place in points, 48 point game with the guy in 3rd. Again, I do understand that you have to have the cups to show, but the HOF argument isn't fair imo.

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09-21-2013, 02:39 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Should we get out our calculators and create objective standards for this?

Steve Shutt and Lapointe are HOF players. I think that at the very least you should have this on your resume before being considered. Carbonneau (not a HOFer) was the best defensive forward of his generation and at least has Selkes and Cups behind him... I'd say he's a much better candidate than Markov.

Markov just isn't in this class of player. I don't care if he racks up more points over time... not a HOF resume and not the kind of guy who should be retired.

As a point of reference let's compare him to Guy Lapointe (who doesn't even have his jersey retired yet.)


Lapointe:
HOF
6 Stanley Cups
1st team all-star x1
2nd team all-star x2

Markov
Not a HOF career (no chance)
0 Cups (0 Cup appearances)
0 all-star selections

If Lapointe (who has a significantly better resume) can't get his jersey retired, how does Markov warrant any consideration at all?
Nailed it. I've been really wrestling with this question because Markov deserves recognition for all he's done, but he simply doesn't hold up to the other non-retired number players.

Also as a side note, How the hell is Carbo not in the HHOF?

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Old
09-21-2013, 02:53 PM
  #142
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Nope

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09-21-2013, 03:08 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Eye-ball test for who's better. Simple as that.
As someone who has seen all of both of their careers: Koivu - easy. And like I said, Mats Naslund was my first favourite Hab.

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09-21-2013, 03:09 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Should we get out our calculators and create objective standards for this?

Steve Shutt and Lapointe are HOF players. I think that at the very least you should have this on your resume before being considered. Carbonneau (not a HOFer) was the best defensive forward of his generation and at least has Selkes and Cups behind him... I'd say he's a much better candidate than Markov.

Markov just isn't in this class of player. I don't care if he racks up more points over time... not a HOF resume and not the kind of guy who should be retired.

As a point of reference let's compare him to Guy Lapointe (who doesn't even have his jersey retired yet.)


Lapointe:
HOF
6 Stanley Cups
1st team all-star x1
2nd team all-star x2

Markov
Not a HOF career (no chance)
0 Cups (0 Cup appearances)
0 all-star selections

If Lapointe (who has a significantly better resume) can't get his jersey retired, how does Markov warrant any consideration at all?
Gawd reading your crap is painful. Markov has 2 Allstar appearances .

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Old
09-21-2013, 03:21 PM
  #145
MXD
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Gawd reading your crap is painful. Markov has 2 Allstar appearances .
If you cannot differentiate all-star game appearance and NHL all-star team berth , the least you can do is to abstain from insulting a fellow poster.

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09-21-2013, 03:38 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
If you cannot differentiate all-star game appearance and NHL all-star team berth , the least you can do is to abstain from insulting a fellow poster.
Don't encourage this boards resident time-waster.

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09-21-2013, 03:44 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Whoever voted yes is insane. There's even a select few up there that I don't think should be, and they are all far superior to Markov.


I'd be corious to know who are the defensemen you think are FAR more superior to Markov ?

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09-21-2013, 03:55 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I'd be corious to know who are the defensemen you think are FAR more superior to Markov ?
Lapointe, Laperriere, Tremblay, Reardon, Chelios for starters.

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09-21-2013, 03:56 PM
  #149
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Agree with your post but this part is incorrect. 2007-8.
He's never been an all-star.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/awar..._all_star.html

Playing in an all-star game is a totally different thing - Mike McPhee played in all-star game. Markov has never been first or 2nd team all-star. Ever.

Lapointe has four selections total.
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Lafleur would have drank himself to death playing on the teams markov played for.

Stanley Cups being necessary for individual honors makes absolutely 0 sense.
I'm surprised Lafleur didn't drink himself to death anyway.

As for Stanley Cups... not necessary. But it helps, esp if you lead your team to one. Even if we take away all the cups, we don't really need to embarrass the memory of Koivu by comparing him to Lafleur do we?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franck View Post
On a team with the history that the Canadiens have being a HOFer has to be the absolute minimum requirement to have your number retired.
I think you're right. Shouldn't be a hard rule but it's definitely something to go by. Carbonneau I can see but even that might be a reach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKing View Post
The guy is top 5 in d-man scoring in Habs history and in points with 233 less GP then the man in 4th and a 13 point gap to 4th place in points, 48 point game with the guy in 3rd. Again, I do understand that you have to have the cups to show, but the HOF argument isn't fair imo.
Different eras...

It's great that he's got more points for us than Doug Harvey. Do you think he's better? Do you think he's meant more to this franchise?


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 09-21-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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Old
09-21-2013, 03:58 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
PK Subban looks like he'll have a truly special career. It's obviously way too early to be talking about his jersey getting retired but he's an exceptional talent and he's been improving season by season. The 2011-12 season was really fun to watch him evolve. As I said before, he's proven to have HOF talent. I don't think Markov had this. Markov falls into the category of the very good. But he's not superstar material the way Subban is.
Now Subban is a potential HOFer while Markov accomplished nothing? Potential to take the top 3 in points for a defense-men while playing much less games IS impressive and a feat on its own.

Our record with and without Markov in the lineup (especially prior to Subban's appearance on the scene) speaks volumes of what he brings to the club, the emergence of Subban as a potential future star does not mitigate Markov's accomplishments this far.

The difference between Markov and Subban is one loves the limelight, and in today's uber social media world, that's a huge plus, while the other shies away from it. Had Markov had Subban's personality he would have had a few "individual honors" to his name.

You can't make a case based on future accomplishments while disregarding and downplaying current mile stones to bolster your argument.

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