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Old
09-21-2013, 11:56 AM
  #126
HCH
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Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
Of course I miss the game where they score 6 goals. Any highlights?
The most discussed highlight has been DD losing a puck battle with a Carolina player... apparently everything else is irrelevant.

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09-21-2013, 11:59 AM
  #127
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Its funny how even when DD plays a great game and the haters will hate. Sure the battle your arguing over he lost but he also won more than he lost that are not on video. He has his weakness your not going to change him he is 5 "7" winning down low is not going to be his skill. Other players have weaknesses that are just as easy to see but no one talks about. Our best scoring forward Patches can't be a set up man he is flat out poor at it but no one cares. They compliment each other very well.
Unlike Desharnais, Pacioretty isn't one dimensional enough to always look to pass. He can and has plenty of times setup players for goals/scoring chances.

Here's a funny stat from last 2 seasons:

First Assists 5 on 5

Player A
11/12: 15
12/13: 7

Player B
11/12: 14
12/13: 9

One is the skilled Desharnais the other is the 'can't be a set up man' Pacioretty.

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Old
09-21-2013, 12:00 PM
  #128
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Old
09-21-2013, 12:06 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Unlike Desharnais, Pacioretty isn't one dimensional enough to always look to pass. He can and has plenty of times setup players for goals/scoring chances.

Here's a funny stat from last 2 seasons:

First Assists

Player A
11/12: 15
12/13: 7

Player B
11/12: 14
12/13: 9

One is the skilled Desharnais the other is the 'can't be a set up man' Pacioretty.
That's great your reading a stat that means nothing. If you watch the play no matter who gets the first assist who is setting up the play? You can get first assist from rebounds! I guess Henrik Sedin is too one dimensional? Not putting those players on the same level but you get the point.

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09-21-2013, 12:10 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by dunner View Post
That's great your reading a stat that means nothing. If you watch the play no matter who gets the first assist who is setting up the play? You can get first assist from rebounds! I guess Henrik Sedin is too one dimensional? Not putting those players on the same level but you get the point.
How else would you suggest I back up an opinion that Pacioretty can and does set up players on a forum? Players that set up other players tend to have high first assist numbers.

Not sure what Sedin has to do with Desharnais being one dimensional while Pacioretty having a more rounded offensive game. They are both on the same line, if one is going to always be the passer, the other naturally should fill the other role. That doesn't mean that player CAN'T be a playmaker or doesn't have that skill set.

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09-21-2013, 12:19 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
How else would you suggest I can back up an opinion suggesting Pacioretty can and does set up players on a forum? Players that set up other players tend to have high first assist numbers.

Not sure what Sedin has to do with Desharnais being one dimensional while Pacioretty having a more rounded offensive game.
Your right on a forum it is tough to back up an opinion, but your stats don't do favours either I guarantee a large portion of Patches first assist do come from driving the net.

Sedin looks past first every time like you suggest DD does thats the comparison.

Patches offensive game isn't well rounded in my opinion but not in any way do I care, he is a great player. DD's is not rounded either but he takes all the heat. Plekanec is our only well rounded offensive player but he still doesn't have the elite skill that the "great" players have. All players have there problems but what I was originally saying was for some reason this board focuses always on DD's and fail to see what he does very well and what other players are missing.

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09-21-2013, 12:22 PM
  #132
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09-21-2013, 12:30 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by dunner View Post
Its funny how even when DD plays a great game and the haters will hate. Sure the battle your arguing over he lost but he also won more than he lost that are not on video. He has his weakness your not going to change him he is 5 "7" winning down low is not going to be his skill. Other players have weaknesses that are just as easy to see but no one talks about. Our best scoring forward Patches can't be a set up man he is flat out poor at it but no one cares. They compliment each other very well.
Every players, no exception, have weakness.

As you said, he clearly lost the battle. Many players lost many battle in a game.
What i pointed out, is the fact that RDS poeple screaming he was awesome on the forecheck and made a great passes cause of his great vision.

It was a simple passe and bad play actually......
Many poeple base their opinion on what these guys are saying on TV.

I never said he had a bad game , He had a good game for sure.....just not as great as many are saying....Galchenyuk and Bournival were better IMO....making him the 3rd best center in a game which he should have been the first.

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09-21-2013, 12:37 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Every players, no exception, have weakness.

As you said, he clearly lost the battle. Many players lost many battle in a game.
What i pointed out, is the fact that RDS poeple screaming he was awesome on the forecheck and made a great passes cause of his great vision.

It was a simple passe and bad play actually......
Many poeple base their opinion on what these guys are saying on TV.

I never said he had a bad game , He had a good game for sure.....just not as great as many are saying....Galchenyuk and Bournival were better IMO....making him the 3rd best center in a game which he should have been the first.
Galchenyuk did not have a great game it was solid mistake free game but he did not drive the play and was not always on the puck and I am a huge Galchenyuk fan so i'm not hating just telling what I watched.

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09-21-2013, 12:44 PM
  #135
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Your right on a forum it is tough to back up an opinion, but your stats don't do favours either I guarantee a large portion of Patches first assist do come from driving the net.

Sedin looks past first every time like you suggest DD does thats the comparison.

Patches offensive game isn't well rounded in my opinion but not in any way do I care, he is a great player. DD's is not rounded either but he takes all the heat. Plekanec is our only well rounded offensive player but he still doesn't have the elite skill that the "great" players have. All players have there problems but what I was originally saying was for some reason this board focuses always on DD's and fail to see what he does very well and what other players are missing.
My point is Pacioretty has the skill set/ability to play any role in the offensive side of things from sniper, to crashing net, to playmaking. What I'm trying to say is IMO you're underrating his playmaking because he doesn't have the need to use it as often with Desharnais not being able to fill any other offensive role outside of being that 'setup man' for the line. Even then, he still sets up his linemates for goals.

IMO the opinion of Pacioretty's inability to be a playmaker is more due to the preconceived idea of what kind of player he is rather than his actual game. Eller and Subban have similar detractors against them. Eller was/is regarded to not have much offensive upside while amazingly Subban STILL is regarded to not being that good defensively.

I still don't understand the Sedin comparison...Sedin looks to pass to his brother but has the skill set and size to excel in other facets. For example, his goal totals went up when his brother was injured long term. Take Pacioretty away from Desharnais and he plays exactly the same. Put him on wing he plays exactly the same. It's one of the reasons Desharnais will always be paired with a certain mold of players, he's one dimensional. Pacioretty can and has produced no matter who he plays with.


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Old
09-21-2013, 12:49 PM
  #136
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Galchenyuk did not have a great game it was solid mistake free game but he did not drive the play and was not always on the puck and I am a huge Galchenyuk fan so i'm not hating just telling what I watched.
Mayby not great.....but good, all-around good...cause i focus more on his defensive game. That's where he need to get better to get back at center.

Don't get me wrong....it would be best for the team if DD have a great season...and i want that team to win. But i never hated DD for his offensive game...it's his defensive game and physical game that bother me.

On that play.....RDS might praised him.
But what happened if the D didn't miss his pass?

DD if way behind the play....odd-man rush....not good for the team.
It's not the kind of play i wanna see to often...like we did last year

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09-21-2013, 12:53 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
My point is Pacioretty has the skill set/ability to play any role in the offensive side of things from sniper, to crashing net, to playmaking. What I'm trying to say is IMO you're underrating his playmaking because he doesn't have the need to use it as often with Desharnais not being able to fill any other offensive role outside of being that 'setup man' for the line. Even then, he still sets up his linemates for goals.

IMO the opinion of Pacioretty's inability to be a playmaker is more due to the preconceived idea of what kind of player he is rather than his actual game. Eller and Subban have similar detracts against them. Eller was/is regarded to not have much offensive upside while amazingly Subban STILL is regarded to not being that good defensively.
Personally I don't care how the media perceives players. I have my own opinions based on what I see and generally on this forum I disagree with many peoples opinions to the point where I wonder how many ppl watch the games and have played hockey at a descent level, I come on here though because I do like to read opinions that are well described with good reasoning it's obvious that two people can see things differently and I think Patches is one of them.

Like I said I don't feel his playmaking abilities are strong but offensively he is gifted he is just not a playmaker it's not what RDS is saying its what I am seeing. He has great speed, shot and drives the outside very well.

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09-21-2013, 12:55 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Mayby not great.....but good, all-around good...cause i focus more on his defensive game. That's where he need to get better to get back at center.

Don't get me wrong....it would be best for the team if DD have a great season...and i want that team to win. But i never hated DD for his offensive game...it's his defensive game and physical game that bother me.

On that play.....RDS might praised him.
But what happened if the D didn't miss his pass?

DD if way behind the play....odd-man rush....not good for the team.
It's not the kind of play i wanna see to often...like we did last year
Ah if the D hits the pass and your familiar with hockey set ups the third forward should be high and its basically a 3-3 breakout.

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09-21-2013, 01:25 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by dunner View Post
Personally I don't care how the media perceives players. I have my own opinions based on what I see and generally on this forum I disagree with many peoples opinions to the point where I wonder how many ppl watch the games and have played hockey at a descent level, I come on here though because I do like to read opinions that are well described with good reasoning it's obvious that two people can see things differently and I think Patches is one of them.

Like I said I don't feel his playmaking abilities are strong but offensively he is gifted he is just not a playmaker it's not what RDS is saying its what I am seeing. He has great speed, shot and drives the outside very well.
I agree that it's not accurate to categorize him as a playmaker, it's not his primary strength, but my argument is directed towards your original stance, "Our best scoring forward Patches can't be a set up man he is flat out poor at it". It's one thing to say "I don't feel his playmaking abilities are strong" and entirely different to say "he is flat out poor at it".

Pacioretty's biggest weaknesses resides likely on the defensive/physical play side. Even then, in terms of defensive play, with his youth, size, and speed he can still improve/develop.

If I were to make the lines I'd break up Pacioretty-Desharnais in a heartbeat and go with:

Galchenyuk - Desharnais - Briere
Pacioretty - Eller - Gallagher
Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta (Prust/Leblanc/Bournival/etc once Gionta gets injured)

This gives Pacioretty tougher D minutes BUT allows him to progress his game to being able to eventually matchup up against tougher offensive players. Furthermore, his playmaking can see more light/development as each player on this line is fairly versatile in terms of offensive skill/ability.

Desharnais maintains role as soft minutes player but this time Galchenyuk gets it too to develop offensively. Briere might be a good mentor for both.

Plekanec continues his unappreciated role of being the shutdown defensive forward.

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09-21-2013, 01:35 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I agree that it's not accurate to categorize him as a playmaker, it's not his primary strength, but my argument is directed towards your original stance, "Our best scoring forward Patches can't be a set up man he is flat out poor at it". It's one thing to say "I don't feel his playmaking abilities are strong" and entirely different to say "he is flat out poor at it".

Pacioretty's biggest weaknesses resides likely on the defensive/physical play side. Even then, in terms of defensive play, with his youth, size, and speed he can still improve/develop.

If I were to make the lines I'd break up Pacioretty-Desharnais in a heartbeat and go with:

Galchenyuk - Desharnais - Briere
Pacioretty - Eller - Gallagher
Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta (Prust/Leblanc/Bournival/etc once Gionta gets injured)

This gives Pacioretty tougher D minutes BUT allows him to progress his game to being able to eventually matchup up against tougher offensive players. Furthermore, his playmaking can see more light/development as each player on this line is fairly versatile in terms of offensive skill/ability.

Desharnais maintains role as soft minutes player but this time Galchenyuk gets it too to develop offensively. Briere might be a good mentor for both.

Plekanec continues his unappreciated role of being the shutdown defensive forward.
Ok i'll drop the poor maybe it was a little strong. But this line combo sets up exactly why I think the forum discredits DD. I personally don't think Eller and Patches are a good combo (I can be proved wrong) but let me explain Eller & Patches do not have a complementary skill set. Eller is not a set up man he uses speed size to create offence but doesn't see the play as well as DD. I love Eller but not sure with Patches works. Eller likes to carry the puck and at times this is his downfall trying to do too much. Plekanec and Patches could work but again Patches would need to be a better 2 way player.

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09-21-2013, 01:41 PM
  #141
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Hahaha hate is a strong word buddy.
Hate isnt a strong word anymore. its 2013. But hey, if you didnt notice, I used the word in the past tense. "HateD." Lol

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09-21-2013, 01:42 PM
  #142
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Personally I don't care how the media perceives players. I have my own opinions based on what I see and generally on this forum I disagree with many peoples opinions to the point where I wonder how many ppl watch the games and have played hockey at a descent level, I come on here though because I do like to read opinions that are well described with good reasoning it's obvious that two people can see things differently and I think Patches is one of them.

Like I said I don't feel his playmaking abilities are strong but offensively he is gifted he is just not a playmaker it's not what RDS is saying its what I am seeing. He has great speed, shot and drives the outside very well.
MaxPac can create plays by himself. So yes, he is a playmaker. He's not a pass first or dangler, but he can still do a good job of setting up his teammates.
By the way, him driving the net to create a rebound which leads to a goal is play making.
I think you have a very narrow view of what a playmaker is. It seems you think a playmaker is only someone that will carry the puck in the offensive zone and then set up a teammate via pass. There's more to it than just that.

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09-21-2013, 01:44 PM
  #143
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Ah if the D hits the pass and your familiar with hockey set ups the third forward should be high and its basically a 3-3 breakout.
Would be right under Martin's system....but with Therrien who asked agressive 2-man forecheck and always let his D rush in the Ozone...not entirely sure.

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09-21-2013, 01:47 PM
  #144
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Ok i'll drop the poor maybe it was a little strong. But this line combo sets up exactly why I think the forum discredits DD. I personally don't think Eller and Patches are a good combo (I can be proved wrong) but let me explain Eller & Patches do not have a complementary skill set. Eller is not a set up man he uses speed size to create offence but doesn't see the play as well as DD. I love Eller but not sure with Patches works. Eller likes to carry the puck and at times this is his downfall trying to do too much. Plekanec and Patches could work but again Patches would need to be a better 2 way player.
There's absolutely nothing for you to base an opinion that MaxPac would not work with Eller. MaxPac and Eller have a well rounded set of offensive tools to pretty much be compatible with any player they're paired with.
Eller has played well along side AK, Moen, Gally, Galla, Prust, heck even on a 4th line last year he was able to create offense and scoring chances. So you're going to have a very hard time arguing that he wouldn't match well with our best winger.
Furthermore, I completely disagree with your notion that Eller is not a set up man or that he doesn't see the play as well as DD. This goes back to my previous post where it seems you think a set up man is just someone that passes the puck.

Btw, whenever MaxPac was paired with Plekanec, it generated more scoring for us than when he was with DD. That's facing tougher opponents, in tougher situations.

I think you're seriously reaching in trying to defend DD.

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09-21-2013, 01:50 PM
  #145
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MaxPac can create plays by himself. So yes, he is a playmaker. He's not a pass first or dangler, but he can still do a good job of setting up his teammates.
By the way, him driving the net to create a rebound which leads to a goal is play making.
I think you have a very narrow view of what a playmaker is. It seems you think a playmaker is only someone that will carry the puck in the offensive zone and then set up a teammate via pass. There's more to it than just that.
Ok your right in the technical use of the word but please for the hockey use of the word that is not how it is commonly used. That statement would basically mean that Gionta taking a clapper at the goalie's pads for a rebound makes him a playmaker or even Moen for that matter. I don't think anyone argues they are playmakers.

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09-21-2013, 01:51 PM
  #146
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Ok i'll drop the poor maybe it was a little strong. But this line combo sets up exactly why I think the forum discredits DD. I personally don't think Eller and Patches are a good combo (I can be proved wrong) but let me explain Eller & Patches do not have a complementary skill set. Eller is not a set up man he uses speed size to create offence but doesn't see the play as well as DD. I love Eller but not sure with Patches works. Eller likes to carry the puck and at times this is his downfall trying to do too much. Plekanec and Patches could work but again Patches would need to be a better 2 way player.
They actually have played together occasionally and produced/looked good. One of Pacioretty's strengths is that he can score in many ways - be it on set ups or speed driven plays. Having 2 big bodies also creates more space for Gallagher who has proven chemistry with Pacioretty.

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09-21-2013, 01:55 PM
  #147
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Hate isnt a strong word anymore. Lol
Maybe in your world it isn't but it is a strong word... and it isn't an "LOL" no matter what tense you use.

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09-21-2013, 02:08 PM
  #148
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Ok your right in the technical use of the word but please for the hockey use of the word that is not how it is commonly used. That statement would basically mean that Gionta taking a clapper at the goalie's pads for a rebound makes him a playmaker or even Moen for that matter. I don't think anyone argues they are playmakers.
Well no, if it happens once in a while. But MaxPac drives the net every game, multiple times, and it's not the only way he sets up his teammates.
Nobody is saying MaxPac is a pure playmaker, but he's got a good enough skillset to set up linemates multiple times in a game.

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09-21-2013, 02:16 PM
  #149
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Hate isnt a strong word anymore. its 2013. But hey, if you didnt notice, I used the word in the past tense. "HateD." Lol
I didn't take your post seriously, and I do remember the first time I did call a shutout for Price, against the Lightning, half-way into the 3rd period, with the game ending finally in shootout. I understood the frustration, I was pissed and shocked as well.

Anyways, it's all good.

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09-21-2013, 02:25 PM
  #150
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All I know is that Maxpac is a much better name than Patches. The guy isn't a kitten.

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