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If Markov retired tomorrow, would you want the Habs to retire his number?

View Poll Results: If Markov retired tomorrow, would you want the Habs to retire his number?
Yes 47 17.41%
No 223 82.59%
Voters: 270. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-21-2013, 04:08 PM
  #151
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Edgy View Post
Now Subban is a potential HOFer while Markov accomplished nothing?
Never said this... read it again.

I think Subban has the talent to become a HOFer that's it. He has to prove it and he's got a long, long way to go.

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09-21-2013, 04:08 PM
  #152
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Retiring number 11 for Koivu is too much, but not using number 11 before Koivu is retired would have been great (the longest servant captain), but then Canadiens decided to give it to to Gomez who was expected to be avarage at best and turn out to be not good at all.

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09-21-2013, 04:30 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Lapointe, Laperriere, Tremblay, Reardon, Chelios for starters.
and yet, while playing on crappy teams and with crappy teammates he'll surpass them all in points...

no Harvey, no Robinson, no Savard to help him boost his stats...

so yeah, they're all FAR superior to him

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09-21-2013, 04:42 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and yet, while playing on crappy teams and with crappy teammates he'll surpass them all in points...

no Harvey, no Robinson, no Savard to help him boost his stats...

so yeah, they're all FAR superior to him
They are.

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09-21-2013, 04:44 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and yet, while playing on crappy teams and with crappy teammates he'll surpass them all in points...

no Harvey, no Robinson, no Savard to help him boost his stats...

so yeah, they're all FAR superior to him
Just head to History of Hockey board. Top-60 D Men. All those made it. I also forgot Sylvio Mantha.

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Old
09-21-2013, 04:48 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and yet, while playing on crappy teams and with crappy teammates he'll surpass them all in points...

no Harvey, no Robinson, no Savard to help him boost his stats...

so yeah, they're all FAR superior to him
You really think that Markov is even going to come close to passing Lapointe in points lol. Having both Robinson and Savard didn't boost his stats as he had to compete with Savard for pp time. In case you haven't noticed, dmen play in pairings.....not trios.

That being said, this discussion is not about points. Chelios was a better player than Markov, that isn't remotely debateable. Laperriere is one of the greatest defensive dmen in the history of the game.

There isn't any reasonable debate that puts Markov's jersey in the rafters without him winning a Norris or a Conn Smythe in the near future......I don't like those odds

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09-21-2013, 04:59 PM
  #157
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I find it real difficult to retire the number of a player that never won the cup in Montreal.

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Old
09-21-2013, 04:59 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
You really think that Markov is even going to come close to passing Lapointe in points lol. Having both Robinson and Savard didn't boost his stats as he had to compete with Savard for pp time. In case you haven't noticed, dmen play in pairings.....not trios.

That being said, this discussion is not about points. Chelios was a better player than Markov, that isn't remotely debateable. Laperriere is one of the greatest defensive dmen in the history of the game.

There isn't any reasonable debate that puts Markov's jersey in the rafters without him winning a Norris or a Conn Smythe in the near future......I don't like those odds
as I said previously, I dont think he'll have his jersey retired and I don't think he should anyway...

but seriously, when making comparisons, lest not forget the guys named played for dynasties, others were also paired with guys like Savard or Robinson WHILE playing for dynasties...

Markov ?
- missed 2.5 of his prime years
- was paired with Komisarek for a while (played 1st pair with Markov, as we speak I'm trying to picture him on the first pair with the 70's dynasty LOL)... the best D he played with is probably P.K. who's still far from the Savard/Robinson of the 70's... otherwise, add an aging Schneider to the list, a Streit and a few others...
- played on crappy teams more often that not

and he's right there with them in points...
(lets not be stupid enough to compare style and efficiency and al', most of us werent born when the pre-70's "heroes" were playing)

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Old
09-21-2013, 06:01 PM
  #159
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Nyet to retiring Marky's number. Love the guy, but I'm of the opinion that number retirements should be very rare and reserved for players who transcend the game; players who were so important to the history of the franchise that it would be downright sacrilege for anyone else to dare wear their number.

Think Rocket, Flower, Beliveau, Morenz. As much as I'm a Koivu and Markov fan, they don't qualify. In fact - and most of you probably wouldn't agree, but I think half the sweaters we have hanging from the rafters shouldn't be there. They're all great players and HOFers, but I think the criteria for retiring your number should be higher... especially for a such a storied franchise like the Habs.

Just my 1.4 cents (after taxes)

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09-21-2013, 07:39 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
Nyet to retiring Marky's number. Love the guy, but I'm of the opinion that number retirements should be very rare and reserved for players who transcend the game; players who were so important to the history of the franchise that it would be downright sacrilege for anyone else to dare wear their number.

Think Rocket, Flower, Beliveau, Morenz. As much as I'm a Koivu and Markov fan, they don't qualify. In fact - and most of you probably wouldn't agree, but I think half the sweaters we have hanging from the rafters shouldn't be there. They're all great players and HOFers, but I think the criteria for retiring your number should be higher... especially for a such a storied franchise like the Habs.

Just my 1.4 cents (after taxes)
come on now...

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09-21-2013, 07:53 PM
  #161
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After having followed this thread for 7 pages i think I've drawn a conclusion.
It comes down to; Oh please please please, put one of my favorite player's jerseys up in the rafters of the Bell Centre (possibly because we never want to change the nameplate behind the 79 or 11)
vs
The next jersey they hang in the rafters should be one that can stand the test of time, one that will undoubtedly belong next to the greats of this storied franchise.
Do we need to amend or review the selection criteria that has filled our rafters with retired numbers? I don't think so, the rafters are full with numbers of the great, hallowed, storied and historic. Stick to what got you here there is no immediate crying need to appease a generation that is likely to not see a player that they cheer for or have cheered for hang their number high above in the most vaunted of sports shrines.
So be it the sportsworld goes on

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Old
09-21-2013, 08:28 PM
  #162
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While I admire and respect Markov he hasn't accomplished enough to have his number retired. Let's just say that he was the best over the past decade (and better than at least 90% of all Hab Dmen who played between 1943 and 2013, the years in which I've watched them play). Unfortunately, the Hab teams in the decade 2003-2013 weren't very good. I wouldn't put Markov on a plane with Harvey, Savard, Lapointe, Robinson, or Langway, to mention some of the most outstanding. I would, however, take him over Emile Bouchard.

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09-21-2013, 08:50 PM
  #163
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No. NO NO!

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09-21-2013, 10:20 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
They are.
They are. Don't waste your time on this one. Lapointe probably has a Norris in '73 but loses out to Bobby Orr. It's a silly discussion. It's like some guy trying to argue that Kaberle is better than Salming. The guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about so don't waste your time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
I find it real difficult to retire the number of a player that never won the cup in Montreal.
With 30 teams its a lot harder than it used to be. I wouldn't make that a requirement.

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09-21-2013, 10:54 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
No. I know it is harsh, but no. No cup , no retired number. I would love to make an exception for Saku. He's a god. But no. It is not about feelings, it is about Cups.
Who says it's ALL ABOUT CUP though? There are 4th line players that can win the cup that doesn't come close to what Koivu did for our team and city.

We should put things in context and evaluate the situation a player played in. No, Koivu hasn't won any cup with us but his showing of courage, passion, professionalism, commitment for the team and community is undeniable.

There aren't many players that has the same path as Koivu and those that did, probably already has and will have their jersey retired by their team. I'm thinking about Sundin, Alfredsson, Iginla.. etc.. without winning the cup.

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09-21-2013, 11:29 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Who says it's ALL ABOUT CUP though? There are 4th line players that can win the cup that doesn't come close to what Koivu did for our team and city.

We should put things in context and evaluate the situation a player played in. No, Koivu hasn't won any cup with us but his showing of courage, passion, professionalism, commitment for the team and community is undeniable.

There aren't many players that has the same path as Koivu and those that did, probably already has and will have their jersey retired by their team. I'm thinking about Sundin, Alfredsson, Iginla.. etc.. without winning the cup.
I'm sure there are many inspiring stories out there but that shouldn't get you your jersey retired. Koivu simply wasn't good enough. Forget about him not having a cup he's only got one season where he managed a point per game or better and it was only 50 games.

There's no way he's good enough to warrant this.

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09-21-2013, 11:32 PM
  #167
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Courage, passion, commitment mean diddly squat when it comes to retiring a jersey. Yes, great qualities but the only thing that matters when retiring a jersey is what they did on the ice. How many years they played with the team, how many cups, how many points, any major awards, did they dominate their position league wide for several years.

I'm thinking many of you who want to retire Saku's or Markov's jersey are under 30, you just haven"t seen any great players for this team yet, so you grab at straws for what you have seen, try to justify that these are 2 of the best players the franchise has ever seen. You haven't seen Lafleur or Beliveau or Henri Richard or Robinson play. I have seen them play, I can can absolutely state without any hesitation that Saku or Markov have done nothing that merits a jersey retirement.

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09-21-2013, 11:36 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm sure there are many inspiring stories out there but that shouldn't get you your jersey retired. Koivu simply wasn't good enough. Forget about him not having a cup he's only got one season where he managed a point per game or better and it was only 50 games.

There's no way he's good enough to warrant this.
Forgetting, of course, about the fact that there were seasons during that stretch when less than 10 people out of ~700 scored more than 80 points in the 82 game season. Might as well hold players from the late 90s/early 2000s to the same scoring standards of the 70s/80s, because that makes sense.

Again, I'm not even strongly on the side of retiring his jersey (wouldn't call it undeserved, either). That's just one of the worst arguments against it that you could pick from the bag.

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09-21-2013, 11:53 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Forgetting, of course, about the fact that there were seasons during that stretch when less than 10 people out of ~700 scored more than 80 points in the 82 game season. Might as well hold players from the late 90s/early 2000s to the same scoring standards of the 70s/80s, because that makes sense.

Again, I'm not even strongly on the side of retiring his jersey (wouldn't call it undeserved, either). That's just one of the worst arguments against it that you could pick from the bag.
Remember what the topic is though... I'm not saying he was a bad player man. If I was then you'd be right. I'm saying he was nowhere near exceptional.

Yeah it was the dead puck era for much of his career but so what? If ten players (or something close to it as you say) are out there scoring over a point per game and this guy's isn't among them then he'd better be bringing something very special to the table if he's a first line center. So actually, yeah I think that's pretty indicative of him not being worthy of this.

To your point, yeah I could've researched how many times he spent in the top twenty scorers or whatever... either way though man, this guy just wasn't elite. Never in the top ten scorers in his career. Is that more to your liking? I mean let's not nitpick here, you know what I'm saying. No point arguing over something trivial like this. The guy was nowhere near elite.

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09-22-2013, 12:21 AM
  #170
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Winning a Cup and getting around 800 games played with the Habs (with an okay ppg) and he's a sure fire IMO. Then again it could be an ''emotive'' answer since a guy like Guy Lapointe hasn't been retired and he got 572 PTS in 777 GP while winning 6 cups.

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09-22-2013, 01:07 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
come on now...
I know I'm pushing it, but I think you understand my point. We're far too eager to retire jerseys. It should be an honour reserved for the generational talents; the elite of the elite. No matter how attached we feel to players like Markov, he's not deserving of that status.

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09-22-2013, 01:31 AM
  #172
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I agree. No cup, no retired number. But one exception though and thats Saku Koivu. When Sundin, Naslund, Linden got their numbers retired, I thought why not Koivu. Vancouver is going to retire Bure's number this year too.

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09-22-2013, 02:03 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
They are. Don't waste your time on this one. Lapointe probably has a Norris in '73 but loses out to Bobby Orr. It's a silly discussion. It's like some guy trying to argue that Kaberle is better than Salming. The guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about so don't waste your time.

With 30 teams its a lot harder than it used to be. I wouldn't make that a requirement.
Yet just about everyone in this thread has made it one. It's unfair that Saku should be excluded from that honor because he played on some of the worst Habs teams in club history. It's extremely hard to win a cup in a 30 team league and no team has won back to back cups since Detroit did it in '97 and '98. An exception should be made in this case although I think other players are deserving of it before Koivu ie. Lemaire, Shutt, Carbo etc

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09-22-2013, 03:53 AM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toshio View Post
I agree. No cup, no retired number. But one exception though and thats Saku Koivu. When Sundin, Naslund, Linden got their numbers retired, I thought why not Koivu. Vancouver is going to retire Bure's number this year too.
you make it a rule then it's no exception, otherwise there would be a case for a lot of players...

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09-22-2013, 03:54 AM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
They are. Don't waste your time on this one. Lapointe probably has a Norris in '73 but loses out to Bobby Orr. It's a silly discussion. It's like some guy trying to argue that Kaberle is better than Salming. The guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about so don't waste your time.

With 30 teams its a lot harder than it used to be. I wouldn't make that a requirement.
considering you're really not that good of a poster, I'd avoid being "personnal" if I were you.

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