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If Markov retired tomorrow, would you want the Habs to retire his number?

View Poll Results: If Markov retired tomorrow, would you want the Habs to retire his number?
Yes 47 17.41%
No 223 82.59%
Voters: 270. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-22-2013, 04:02 AM
  #176
ECWHSWI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
I know I'm pushing it, but I think you understand my point. We're far too eager to retire jerseys. It should be an honour reserved for the generational talents; the elite of the elite. No matter how attached we feel to players like Markov, he's not deserving of that status.
Agreed, but we cannot hold today's players to the same standards, winning more than a cup or two in his career is an achievement nowaday (unless you move from team to team and get real lucky), so team awards should be excluded from the requirements... no matter how good Markov is/was, there's no way in hell he'd get the same career than guys like Pointu and Savard for example...

I have no doubt Markov would be over 500 if not close to 600 points if it wasnt for injuries, but there's no way to know for sure and you can't have a number retired on "assumptions", not Markov's fault, not Habs fault either, stuck on crappy teams, injured too often, **** happens, you still had a good career.

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Old
09-22-2013, 06:22 AM
  #177
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meh.

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Old
09-22-2013, 06:35 AM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Agreed, but we cannot hold today's players to the same standards, winning more than a cup or two in his career is an achievement nowaday (unless you move from team to team and get real lucky), so team awards should be excluded from the requirements... no matter how good Markov is/was, there's no way in hell he'd get the same career than guys like Pointu and Savard for example...

I have no doubt Markov would be over 500 if not close to 600 points if it wasnt for injuries, but there's no way to know for sure and you can't have a number retired on "assumptions", not Markov's fault, not Habs fault either, stuck on crappy teams, injured too often, **** happens, you still had a good career.
Nobody expect today's players to be on dynasties. And you actually don't have to as Patrick Roy "only" won 2 Cups with us and is up there. So 2 Cups might be a fine achievement. That's not Henri Richard 10 cups. And you need to have some individual trophies. Where are Markov trophies? And be seen as one of the best overall for quite a lenghty period of time. Markov doesn't fit those criterias. And neither does Koivu. From the guys from the past, I see Lemaire as being a possibility. Now that they opened this to more people ('cause I would not have done it), how do you not include Lemaire in that list? And it's tough to not have Lapointe on that list when one of the main components of this Habs dynasty was this famous Big 3 and you have 2 out of 3 guys up there. Whether we like it or not, the GREAT Habs team is a team from the past. Nobody will ever remember the Habs team that had Koivu has his captain. And the same for Markov. Unfortunately, aside from a few exceptionals like Marcel Dionne and Gilbert Perreault, having your jersey being retired is much more than your own personal accomplishment. And in today's game, while dynasties are tough to achieve, you still are able to be part of great teams, like Detroit, like the AVS were with Sakic, like Jersey with Brodeur, like Pittsburgh with Sid.....

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09-22-2013, 06:58 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Nobody expect today's players to be on dynasties. And you actually don't have to as Patrick Roy "only" won 2 Cups with us and is up there. So 2 Cups might be a fine achievement. That's not Henri Richard 10 cups. And you need to have some individual trophies. Where are Markov trophies? And be seen as one of the best overall for quite a lenghty period of time. Markov doesn't fit those criterias. And neither does Koivu. From the guys from the past, I see Lemaire as being a possibility. Now that they opened this to more people ('cause I would not have done it), how do you not include Lemaire in that list? And it's tough to not have Lapointe on that list when one of the main components of this Habs dynasty was this famous Big 3 and you have 2 out of 3 guys up there.
difference with Roy is, he just didnt happen to be part of a winning team, he litterally stole one for the Habs and was a key component on his second, he was also the first goalie to play butterfly. He's also seen as one of the best goalie in the history of the league. Considering every goalie nowaday plays butterfly (or hybrid at worst), his "achievement" go beyond the stat sheet. Just like Gainey who, despite not being a PPG player or anything had his jersey retired, the guy pretty much invented (so to speak) and mastered defensive forward play, Selke trophy is all Gainey.

Thing with today's players is, pretty much everything has been covered, there isnt anything really they can create/invent that would add a new dimension to the game.

I'ts also very hard for today's players to have the same impact some of the past players had, Gainey to be one of the first forwards to master defensive play, Harvey one of the first d-man to have offense in his game (leading rush and al'), Roy the first butterfly goalie, boomboom and his slapper, Plante and his mask...

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Old
09-22-2013, 07:21 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
difference with Roy is, he just didnt happen to be part of a winning team, he litterally stole one for the Habs and was a key component on his second, he was also the first goalie to play butterfly. He's also seen as one of the best goalie in the history of the league. Considering every goalie nowaday plays butterfly (or hybrid at worst), his "achievement" go beyond the stat sheet. Just like Gainey who, despite not being a PPG player or anything had his jersey retired, the guy pretty much invented (so to speak) and mastered defensive forward play, Selke trophy is all Gainey.

Thing with today's players is, pretty much everything has been covered, there isnt anything really they can create/invent that would add a new dimension to the game.

I'ts also very hard for today's players to have the same impact some of the past players had, Gainey to be one of the first forwards to master defensive play, Harvey one of the first d-man to have offense in his game (leading rush and al'), Roy the first butterfly goalie, boomboom and his slapper, Plante and his mask...
True. So as of now, nobody expects a player to reinvent things. Just to contribute, be great, and part of a winning team. By the way, I would not have retired Gainey's jersey.....and it has NOTHING to do with what he did as a GM obviously. Retiring a jersey is that you just cannot portrait a guy wearing the jersey that another guy just wore. Nobody would have ever see anybody wear #9 or #4 or #10. Honestly though, for me, I would have no problem seeing another person wear #23. And while tons of people in here didn't see them a whole lot, just by how it was talked about, even the ones who didn't see them would have such a hard time seeing Travis Moen wear #10. Or #9 etc. As of now, we have no problem seeing somebody wear #25 and Lemaire was probably just as important in his own role than Gainey was. Some will say that Lemaire created Lafleur before he took the game in his own hands. And while he didn't have Gainey's style, Lemaire was EXTREMELY responsible both ways of the ice. Somehow, while Gainey created the defensive first while having some offense style....Lemaire was amongst the ones who represents more what the Selke is....today. A top offensive player who happens to be quite great defensively. Do I agree with how the trophy turned out to be...not sure. But it is what it is now.

Strangely for Markov, while I don't think his exploits are not enough to see his jersey being retired, he wears such an odd number that it will be strange at first to see somebody else wear the #79. But again, this is not the only criteria. Great performances by the player and his team, needs to be fully attached to a decision like this. And it sucks for Markov but it won't be enough. Life isn't fair....tell that to Marcel Dionne and Gilbert Perreault. They have one freakin less cup than Ed Ronan or Gilbert Dionne....


Last edited by Whitesnake: 09-22-2013 at 07:27 AM.
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Old
09-22-2013, 07:40 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toshio View Post
I agree. No cup, no retired number. But one exception though and thats Saku Koivu. When Sundin, Naslund, Linden got their numbers retired, I thought why not Koivu. Vancouver is going to retire Bure's number this year too.
If Koivu played his career in Vancouver then they could have that discussion. This is Montreal. We don't induct the good, we induct the great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintpatrick View Post
Yet just about everyone in this thread has made it one. It's unfair that Saku should be excluded from that honor because he played on some of the worst Habs teams in club history. It's extremely hard to win a cup in a 30 team league and no team has won back to back cups since Detroit did it in '97 and '98. An exception should be made in this case although I think other players are deserving of it before Koivu ie. Lemaire, Shutt, Carbo etc
I agree, we shouldn't exclude Koivu because he doesn't have a cup. We should exclude him because his play didn't warrant it.

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Old
09-22-2013, 08:08 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
If Koivu's number will not be retired then there is no reason to retire Markov's number, and I like Markov a lot.
Both have won nothing.

Don't want to be blunt....but Koivu was a good player for us....that's all. No sympathy banner in the rafters.

We would be lowering the standard. These players were not exceptional.

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09-22-2013, 10:22 AM
  #183
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I think we should retire the idea of retiring jerseys for a while.

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Old
09-22-2013, 03:29 PM
  #184
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No, not worthy.

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Old
09-22-2013, 03:37 PM
  #185
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Not sure where thread has reached now(haven't read the posts) but Markov doesn't deserve it retired.

If Markov spent his next 5 years with us and finished his career with the habs then I'd say he deserves a plaque and some kind of recognition because in new NHL that's not common. Some kind of "thank you" that's legit.

Koivu is in about same boat but he helped the city more and also was captain for such a long time. I'd be cool with a markov stuff+.

Neither gets number retired though. If Koivu stayed here his whole career and stayed captain, he'd have a better chance as he'd be far and away longest serving captain but otherwise, nah...even though I love Saku.

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09-22-2013, 05:21 PM
  #186
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I really don't think we'll see another retired number until the Habs reach 150 years.

That year, in 2058, when hockey will be played by drones and we'll be watching them in 3D from some space shuttles, Habs will retire another batch of numbers, including Koivu and Markov, but also the so-called "Fantastic-4" that led the Habs to 10 Stanley cups in 15 years from 2015 to 2030: Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Subban and Tinordi.


.


Last edited by HTTP 400 Bad Request: 09-22-2013 at 05:30 PM. Reason: "fantastic-4" not "incredible-4"... my bad!
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Old
09-22-2013, 05:28 PM
  #187
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This is the Montreal canadiens not the florida panthers

No cup
No norris
Never a first team all star
Dismal playoff numbers

Yeah he had 4-5-6 good season so what

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09-22-2013, 05:34 PM
  #188
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Hell no and I liked Markov. No Cup, no Norris, not a captain and not even a very good playoffs performer.

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09-22-2013, 06:12 PM
  #189
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Not tomorrow, no. But he's getting closer. Koivu would have had some mighty impressive totals as a Hab and longevity as a captain and was close too. I figure Markov is good for another 3 seasons minimum, maybe more, and at the end of that stretch when he retires as a Hab, I'll vote "yes". I think it's also important to let the criteria change with the times. The modern players will never be able to compare with the past greats for championships and whatnot, and I would never agree to hold them to the same standards. It's a new world. And we should honour the greats in the modern context too.

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09-22-2013, 08:07 PM
  #190
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No way !

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Old
09-22-2013, 09:54 PM
  #191
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How is a defenceman with a 4 year prime, no cup and no personal achievement being considered for the rafters?

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Old
09-24-2013, 02:45 PM
  #192
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I love Markov, but that's a crazy question. I also heard someone asking about Koivu, which is equally crazy.

Look at who is up their and look at the resumes. Here's what you need:
- multiple Stanley Cups
- major awards
- HOF

As a starting point. Without that, do not apply...

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09-24-2013, 08:44 PM
  #193
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This is the Montreal Canadiens were talking about, the numbers we retire belong to some of the best the game has ever seen, as much as I love Markov, his number dosn't belong in the rafters with the likes of Harvey, Robinson, Bouchard, Savard etc. There are other teams that would retire his number (Koivu's aswell) but as far as I'm concerned those franchises are just trying to kickstart there own history, by getting some banners in the air.

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09-24-2013, 10:41 PM
  #194
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I'll say yes because it's 79. Nobody wants to wear 79.

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09-25-2013, 12:43 AM
  #195
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I love Markov for what he's done as a Hab, but this is a clear no. The Habs have a lot of numbers retired because they've had a lot of truly elite players. I agree that Markov's career in Montreal would probably get his number retired in other places, but I don't even think it would be right there- it should be a very high standard across the board.

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09-25-2013, 01:01 AM
  #196
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Now no. If he plays for us for 5 years and the team wins a cup in those years and keeps his point productions pace. He should deserve a second look especially if he plays his entire career here!

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Old
09-25-2013, 08:28 AM
  #197
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Saku Koivu is the longest serving captain in Montreal Canadiens history and he's not getting his number retired. By that standard, Markov simply doesn't come close to warranting a number retirement.

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09-25-2013, 08:50 AM
  #198
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I hope they stop retiring numbers, it's becoming ridiculous. I mean, just having your name in the rafters should be enough, numbers should always be free to use (yep, even 99)

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09-25-2013, 09:09 AM
  #199
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Look at those who's number has been retired then look at any candidate in the last 30 years. I see just one who was eligible and it ain't anybody in the Koivu era. You need two Stanley cup with us minimum.

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09-25-2013, 10:10 AM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChoseLa View Post
Neither Sak nor Markov. Unless he becomes instrumental in a cup win. The next number to be retired could be 76; between Roy and Subb there is noone worthy of the rafters. And i love both of Markov and Sak.

Not saying Subban has proven enough yet but he's the first candidate since Roy.
He is going to have to do a lot more to deserve his number retired. I like PK but one Norris in a shortened season does not equal retired number. But of the players in the Habs lineup right now, he would have the best chance.

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