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Let's talk about movies (and TV shows)... The Sequel!!

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Old
09-22-2013, 07:36 AM
  #326
Ghetto Sangria
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Shows I must watch:

Game Of Thrones
Defiance
Hell on Wheels
Orphan Black
Continuum
Walking Dead
Under The Dome
Boardwalk Empire
Revolution
Going to check out Agents of Shield

Could care less about anything else. Haven't found a comedy funny in 20 years, basically I know the punchline before its said, they just keep recycling the same old ideas.

And reality shows, don't get me going there,the worst crap ever hoisted on the tv watching public ever.
It's always sunny in Philadelphia... You won't see the punchlines coming because there is no end to their egotistical/dirt bag ways. They are like four funny Heisenbergs

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09-22-2013, 09:00 AM
  #327
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Well, he's certainly become more and more comfortable with murder as the series has progressed. I can buy killing the drug dealers as they were going to kill him. I can buy some of what's happened in the show as self defense. But he's gone beyond this.

As for him HAVING to kill somebody... he didn't have to kill Jane. He didn't have to get that kid sick and almost kill him. Those were choices he made where he wasn't backed into a corner. He simply saw opportunities and took advantage of them.

And yeah, I'd say that makes him pretty evil.
Judge Walt by the sum of his actions and yeah, he's done some muthaf***n evil stuff. But in the complicated head of Walter White, it's always about devising a strategy to get from here to there without hurting anyone. But of course, the dramatic nexus of the show is that something screws up, a situation comes to a head and someone gets hurt, leaving Walt to say, once again, "We can't change what's happened, so let's move on!"

Walt's not fundamentally evil, he's a control-freak who's in denial that he can't control everything. He didn't kill the kid, he gave him a carefully controlled illness ("Look Jesse -- he's alive! He's fine!"). As far as Jane, my memory is that he didn't kill her, he just controlled the situation by not saving her (though truthfully, I don't remember his involvement in that scene very clearly). When it all came to a head last week, Walt took a desperate stab at controlling the situation by giving away everything he'd worked for in order to save Hank. Given the choice between saving all his money and saving a life, he chose life.

There's an exception: that episode where Walt put out a multiple hit on Mike's guys in prison was pretty evil, I admit, even if they were anonymous criminals.

But overall I think Vince Gilligan has taken great pains to make Walter White a study in contradiction, not outright evil. That's why we're still rooting for Walt to win even after five seasons of destruction, because we took the journey with him from naive wimp to Heisenberg, and we still see the committed family guy inside the Meth-Lord.

Well, at least I'm still rooting for him (though I'm not sure what's left to win). Maybe the rest of you moral guys are hoping for Jesse to knock him off.

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09-22-2013, 10:14 AM
  #328
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You guys have been warned about spoilers before. Cut it out.

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09-22-2013, 10:16 AM
  #329
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Judge Walt by the sum of his actions and yeah, he's done some muthaf***n evil stuff. But in the complicated head of Walter White, it's always about devising a strategy to get from here to there without hurting anyone. But of course, the dramatic nexus of the show is that something screws up, a situation comes to a head and someone gets hurt, leaving Walt to say, once again, "We can't change what's happened, so let's move on!"

Walt's not fundamentally evil, he's a control-freak who's in denial that he can't control everything. He didn't kill the kid, he gave him a carefully controlled illness ("Look Jesse -- he's alive! He's fine!"). As far as Jane, my memory is that he didn't kill her, he just controlled the situation by not saving her (though truthfully, I don't remember his involvement in that scene very clearly). When it all came to a head last week, Walt took a desperate stab at controlling the situation by giving away everything he'd worked for in order to save Hank. Given the choice between saving all his money and saving a life, he chose life.

There's an exception: that episode where Walt put out a multiple hit on Mike's guys in prison was pretty evil, I admit, even if they were anonymous criminals.

But overall I think Vince Gilligan has taken great pains to make Walter White a study in contradiction, not outright evil. That's why we're still rooting for Walt to win even after five seasons of destruction, because we took the journey with him from naive wimp to Heisenberg, and we still see the committed family guy inside the Meth-Lord.

Well, at least I'm still rooting for him (though I'm not sure what's left to win). Maybe the rest of you moral guys are hoping for Jesse to knock him off.
Edit: I've created a new BB specific thread where we can talk with spoilers. Just easier to have discussions that way. You can see my reply there.


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09-22-2013, 10:23 AM
  #330
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You guys have been warned about spoilers before. Cut it out.
Okay, I created a separate discussion for BB. Hopefully that's cool and solves the problem.


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09-22-2013, 10:41 AM
  #331
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09-22-2013, 01:06 PM
  #332
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Judge Walt by the sum of his actions and yeah, he's done some muthaf***n evil stuff. But in the complicated head of Walter White, it's always about devising a strategy to get from here to there without hurting anyone. But of course, the dramatic nexus of the show is that something screws up, a situation comes to a head and someone gets hurt, leaving Walt to say, once again, "We can't change what's happened, so let's move on!"

Walt's not fundamentally evil, he's a control-freak who's in denial that he can't control everything. He didn't kill the kid, he gave him a carefully controlled illness ("Look Jesse -- he's alive! He's fine!"). As far as Jane, my memory is that he didn't kill her, he just controlled the situation by not saving her (though truthfully, I don't remember his involvement in that scene very clearly). When it all came to a head last week, Walt took a desperate stab at controlling the situation by giving away everything he'd worked for in order to save Hank. Given the choice between saving all his money and saving a life, he chose life.

There's an exception: that episode where Walt put out a multiple hit on Mike's guys in prison was pretty evil, I admit, even if they were anonymous criminals.

But overall I think Vince Gilligan has taken great pains to make Walter White a study in contradiction, not outright evil. That's why we're still rooting for Walt to win even after five seasons of destruction, because we took the journey with him from naive wimp to Heisenberg, and we still see the committed family guy inside the Meth-Lord.

Well, at least I'm still rooting for him (though I'm not sure what's left to win). Maybe the rest of you moral guys are hoping for Jesse to knock him off.
I am rooting for him too. He hasn't been the face of evil for me, just a genius who has been in survival mode for a long while .

Funny 3 weeks ago I hadn't even started this series, I was totally lost one afternoon when Melnick and Nilan spent a good part if their segment talking about it . I vowed to find out what the hell they were talking about and now I am addicted.

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09-23-2013, 06:14 AM
  #333
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a little underwhelmed with BB episode 15 last night.

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09-23-2013, 07:51 AM
  #334
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a little underwhelmed with BB episode 15 last night.
Was it the last one? I still haven't seen it.

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09-23-2013, 08:20 AM
  #335
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a little underwhelmed with BB episode 15 last night.
The ending gave me shivers

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09-23-2013, 08:20 AM
  #336
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Was it the last one? I still haven't seen it.
One more next sunday

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09-23-2013, 08:21 AM
  #337
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One more next sunday
oh goodie

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09-23-2013, 08:24 AM
  #338
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a little underwhelmed with BB episode 15 last night.
Thats ok, just setting up the finale

it was interresting to watch still last night

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Old
09-23-2013, 03:04 PM
  #339
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Judge Walt by the sum of his actions and yeah, he's done some muthaf***n evil stuff. But in the complicated head of Walter White, it's always about devising a strategy to get from here to there without hurting anyone. But of course, the dramatic nexus of the show is that something screws up, a situation comes to a head and someone gets hurt, leaving Walt to say, once again, "We can't change what's happened, so let's move on!"

Walt's not fundamentally evil, he's a control-freak who's in denial that he can't control everything. He didn't kill the kid, he gave him a carefully controlled illness ("Look Jesse -- he's alive! He's fine!"). As far as Jane, my memory is that he didn't kill her, he just controlled the situation by not saving her (though truthfully, I don't remember his involvement in that scene very clearly). When it all came to a head last week, Walt took a desperate stab at controlling the situation by giving away everything he'd worked for in order to save Hank. Given the choice between saving all his money and saving a life, he chose life.

There's an exception: that episode where Walt put out a multiple hit on Mike's guys in prison was pretty evil, I admit, even if they were anonymous criminals.

But overall I think Vince Gilligan has taken great pains to make Walter White a study in contradiction, not outright evil. That's why we're still rooting for Walt to win even after five seasons of destruction, because we took the journey with him from naive wimp to Heisenberg, and we still see the committed family guy inside the Meth-Lord.

Well, at least I'm still rooting for him (though I'm not sure what's left to win). Maybe the rest of you moral guys are hoping for Jesse to knock him off.
Walter cares about his family, that's it, that's all. In no way does this make him any lesser evil. There are psychopaths that care about their families too.

He's selfish, egotistical, sad, depressed, unhappy man, who also happens to be in a midlife crisis as he gets cancer.
Every decision he takes since getting it worsens his life. Every single one. Many of them are conscious decisions.

You can't say that you're gonna push someone, after doing it, that person takes out a gun, so you take out your gun and shoot him, then claim that it's all the other guy's fault.

You're right, he's often stuck in a corner, but most of the time it's because he put himself there.
His ego always gets the best out of him. Always.

You sympathize with Walter because the show is based around him. Nobody is evil 24/7. So you see how all he wants is to provide for his family. It's constantly reminded to you that he's doing this for his family as it is talked about and they're present in every show. That doesn't make him less evil.
Just like people actually like Tony Soprano.
It's all about the image they wan to portray. They want to show that Walter is a family guy, and they do it very well, but the guy is still evil.

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Old
09-24-2013, 11:01 AM
  #340
Lshap
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Walter cares about his family, that's it, that's all. In no way does this make him any lesser evil. There are psychopaths that care about their families too.

He's selfish, egotistical, sad, depressed, unhappy man, who also happens to be in a midlife crisis as he gets cancer.
Every decision he takes since getting it worsens his life. Every single one. Many of them are conscious decisions.

You can't say that you're gonna push someone, after doing it, that person takes out a gun, so you take out your gun and shoot him, then claim that it's all the other guy's fault.

You're right, he's often stuck in a corner, but most of the time it's because he put himself there.
His ego always gets the best out of him. Always.

You sympathize with Walter because the show is based around him. Nobody is evil 24/7. So you see how all he wants is to provide for his family. It's constantly reminded to you that he's doing this for his family as it is talked about and they're present in every show. That doesn't make him less evil.
Just like people actually like Tony Soprano.
It's all about the image they wan to portray. They want to show that Walter is a family guy, and they do it very well, but the guy is still evil.
Calling him 'evil' is too black-and... um... white for me. Walter White had no idea what he was getting himself into and became a product of his considerable survival instincts. It wasn't like he entered into the drug world thinking, "I'm prepared to kill people". He was totally naive to the violent path he was walking. Once he gained traction in that domain, yes, his ego kicked in big-time, and he became comfortable using violence as a tool of the trade. But that doesn't make him any more evil than Mike, Saul or Jesse, all of whom regretted violence but employed it anyway. Mike killed plenty of folks, Saul was happy to provide the personnel and Jesse shot his share of people, too. Conscious acts of evil. Walt isn't more evil than them, or Tony Soprano, or the entire cast of Game of Thrones for that matter. Walt is just really good at it.

The best characters often do evil without ever actually becoming evil. The characters from Game of Thrones have offed more people than Walter White, but in that context it seems appropriate. We accept good-guys like Rob or Ned or Calissee beheading people because that's how the moral code works in that context. Walt's no different than them; he's figured out how to survive the moral code of the drug world by doing what's necessary. But that doesn't mean he enjoys doing evil. He's no good-guy, but he's no sadist, nor is anywhere close to the cold-blooded cipher of Todd. As you said, Walt is mostly sad, unhappy and regretful -- hardly the emotional makeup of evil.

For me, Walt's character represents a great philosophical question: How much do you define a person by the intentions versus the results? There's really no right answer, but it's a cool question.

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09-24-2013, 12:01 PM
  #341
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Here's more fuel for the fire so'to speak.

http://entertainment.time.com/2013/0...y-of-morality/

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09-24-2013, 12:38 PM
  #342
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Calling him 'evil' is too black-and... um... white for me. Walter White had no idea what he was getting himself into and became a product of his considerable survival instincts. It wasn't like he entered into the drug world thinking, "I'm prepared to kill people". He was totally naive to the violent path he was walking. Once he gained traction in that domain, yes, his ego kicked in big-time, and he became comfortable using violence as a tool of the trade. But that doesn't make him any more evil than Mike, Saul or Jesse, all of whom regretted violence but employed it anyway. Mike killed plenty of folks, Saul was happy to provide the personnel and Jesse shot his share of people, too. Conscious acts of evil. Walt isn't more evil than them, or Tony Soprano, or the entire cast of Game of Thrones for that matter. Walt is just really good at it.

The best characters often do evil without ever actually becoming evil. The characters from Game of Thrones have offed more people than Walter White, but in that context it seems appropriate. We accept good-guys like Rob or Ned or Calissee beheading people because that's how the moral code works in that context. Walt's no different than them; he's figured out how to survive the moral code of the drug world by doing what's necessary. But that doesn't mean he enjoys doing evil. He's no good-guy, but he's no sadist, nor is anywhere close to the cold-blooded cipher of Todd. As you said, Walt is mostly sad, unhappy and regretful -- hardly the emotional makeup of evil.

For me, Walt's character represents a great philosophical question: How much do you define a person by the intentions versus the results? There's really no right answer, but it's a cool question.
I love your take on this character.

Having said that looking to the final episode I am bracing myself for non-stop Walt vengeance. I think he's got a to-do list that includes settling a few scores.

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09-24-2013, 12:51 PM
  #343
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Shows I must watch:

Game Of Thrones
Defiance
Hell on Wheels
Orphan Black
Continuum
Walking Dead
Under The Dome
Boardwalk Empire
Revolution
Going to check out Agents of Shield

Could care less about anything else. Haven't found a comedy funny in 20 years, basically I know the punchline before its said, they just keep recycling the same old ideas.

And reality shows, don't get me going there,the worst crap ever hoisted on the tv watching public ever.
I loved the one's in green, really couldn't get with Boardwalk Empire, I had high expectations, but really couldn't continue watching it after episode 3 or 4...


Anyone have feedback about Homeland? I'm thinking of starting that..

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09-24-2013, 01:02 PM
  #344
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I loved the one's in green, really couldn't get with Boardwalk Empire, I had high expectations, but really couldn't continue watching it after episode 3 or 4...


Anyone have feedback about Homeland? I'm thinking of starting that..
Homeland is one of my favorites. Claire Danes is a bit over the top but its a really great show...Season 3 starts on Sunday I believe.....


Meanwhile, I have heard so much hype about Breaking Bad I am going to check it out. Season 1 episode 1 starting in about 5 minutes.....

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09-24-2013, 01:09 PM
  #345
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Calling him 'evil' is too black-and... um... white for me. Walter White had no idea what he was getting himself into and became a product of his considerable survival instincts. It wasn't like he entered into the drug world thinking, "I'm prepared to kill people". He was totally naive to the violent path he was walking. Once he gained traction in that domain, yes, his ego kicked in big-time, and he became comfortable using violence as a tool of the trade. But that doesn't make him any more evil than Mike, Saul or Jesse, all of whom regretted violence but employed it anyway. Mike killed plenty of folks, Saul was happy to provide the personnel and Jesse shot his share of people, too. Conscious acts of evil. Walt isn't more evil than them, or Tony Soprano, or the entire cast of Game of Thrones for that matter. Walt is just really good at it.

The best characters often do evil without ever actually becoming evil. The characters from Game of Thrones have offed more people than Walter White, but in that context it seems appropriate. We accept good-guys like Rob or Ned or Calissee beheading people because that's how the moral code works in that context. Walt's no different than them; he's figured out how to survive the moral code of the drug world by doing what's necessary. But that doesn't mean he enjoys doing evil. He's no good-guy, but he's no sadist, nor is anywhere close to the cold-blooded cipher of Todd. As you said, Walt is mostly sad, unhappy and regretful -- hardly the emotional makeup of evil.

For me, Walt's character represents a great philosophical question: How much do you define a person by the intentions versus the results? There's really no right answer, but it's a cool question.
On Game of Thrones , the violence is at times over-the-top. It makes Tarantino look PG-13 by comparison .

In fact I've noticed 3 activities that the show cycles through almost like the writing is on a loop.

1) fight scenes with beheadings/violent slashing

2) scenes with head-to-toe female nudity

3) people pouring wine/drinking wine/ordering more wine

Take these activities out of any episode and it would be 3 minutes long . Lol.

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09-24-2013, 01:57 PM
  #346
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On Game of Thrones , the violence is at times over-the-top. It makes Tarantino look PG-13 by comparison .

In fact I've noticed 3 activities that the show cycles through almost like the writing is on a loop.

1) fight scenes with beheadings/violent slashing

2) scenes with head-to-toe female nudity

3) people pouring wine/drinking wine/ordering more wine

Take these activities out of any episode and it would be 3 minutes long . Lol.
Yeah, more accurate to call the show "Game of Body-Parts". But it's woven in so well to the storylines that it seems totally appropriate. I mean, what else are these guys supposed to do but fight, drink and *******? If only King Joffrey had access to internet porn a whole lot of people would still be alive...

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09-24-2013, 02:33 PM
  #347
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I really don't find the violence in GoT to be over the top. Especially not compared to some of the stuff tarantino has done. Final hitler scene from IB comes to mind.


For a fantasty/medieval setting, it's really not that bad at all. Christ I think Braveheart was worse.

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09-24-2013, 02:35 PM
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Calling him 'evil' is too black-and... um... white for me. Walter White had no idea what he was getting himself into and became a product of his considerable survival instincts. It wasn't like he entered into the drug world thinking, "I'm prepared to kill people". He was totally naive to the violent path he was walking. Once he gained traction in that domain, yes, his ego kicked in big-time, and he became comfortable using violence as a tool of the trade. But that doesn't make him any more evil than Mike, Saul or Jesse, all of whom regretted violence but employed it anyway. Mike killed plenty of folks, Saul was happy to provide the personnel and Jesse shot his share of people, too. Conscious acts of evil. Walt isn't more evil than them, or Tony Soprano, or the entire cast of Game of Thrones for that matter. Walt is just really good at it.

The best characters often do evil without ever actually becoming evil. The characters from Game of Thrones have offed more people than Walter White, but in that context it seems appropriate. We accept good-guys like Rob or Ned or Calissee beheading people because that's how the moral code works in that context. Walt's no different than them; he's figured out how to survive the moral code of the drug world by doing what's necessary. But that doesn't mean he enjoys doing evil. He's no good-guy, but he's no sadist, nor is anywhere close to the cold-blooded cipher of Todd. As you said, Walt is mostly sad, unhappy and regretful -- hardly the emotional makeup of evil.

For me, Walt's character represents a great philosophical question: How much do you define a person by the intentions versus the results? There's really no right answer, but it's a cool question.
I wholeheartedly disagree.

It's not because Walt was once a nice man, that he didn't become Evil.

There's a downfall, a downward spiral, once he finds out he has cancer and there's no way he can afford treatment. He decides to get into the cooking meth business, and little by little, he becomes the mastermind and develops a very dark side.
It's not because he's also got a soft side (for his family) that you have to completely ignore his dark side and say ''oh well poor good old Walt had no choice, every time, but to kill those people''. It's just not true.

Mike is a hit man. He doesn't kill kids, so, I guess he's a good hit man
Yes, Mike is evil. So was Gus. So was a bunch of other characters, including Walt.
He's not evil in episode 1, but he certainly becomes it over the course of the series.

Jesse isn't a good guy. You feel sorry for him, because he's so weak mentally, dumb and constantly gets manipulated by Walter.
I think Walter's manipulation of Jesse alone is evil.
I don't understand how you can even try to argue that WW isn't evil after you see him let Jane go through her thing, letting Jesse alone to wake up and find out by himself, how he goes after Brock, all this only to manipulate Jesse.
He's always condescending and manipulative towards Jesse. Knowing what he's done in order to get what he wants out of Jesse, is enough to call him evil.

I think what you're doing is separating Walter White and Heisenberg.
WW is the nice family guy. He wants to spoil them, and make sure they're taken cared off. He's the clumsy innocent brilliant family oriented man.
Heisenberg is an egotistical manipulative greedy selfish man, that has no issues committing as much as murder (to whomever) in order to secure his safety and position at the top of the food chain.

If Walter suffered from schizo, then I would agree with you, he's not the evil man as He'd be doing this without really realizing.
However, he's fully aware of his decisions, and they're generally well thought through.
He's not a psychopath, but that's not the only form of evil. I would agree with you that he's not evil if he truly was always backed up into a corner. But I disagree that this is the case. On many occasions, he puts himself there because of his greed, pride or ego, and he never shows any remorse.

All the guys you mentioned are evil, Mike, Saul, and Jesse. But yes, WW is definitely more as he's the one controlling them. The only guy on par I'd say is Mike, but he's more controlled than WW.

I re-watched the whole series just two weeks ago, so everything is still very fresh. There's no way WW isn't evil.


As for your GoT comparison, I don't get it. You're talking about a fictional show set throughout different Medieval times in Western Europe. It combines different eras but is usually set between 1200-1500 period. Killings were not frowned upon during those times. It was the reality.
BB is set in the present day. Society has evolved. It's really not comparable, but yes, gutting a pregnant woman or slicing off jewels is definitely freaking evil. But just because the sociopath is more calculated and less impulsive than a psychopath doesn't mean he's not evil.


Last edited by Kriss E: 09-24-2013 at 02:42 PM.
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09-24-2013, 02:38 PM
  #349
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I really don't find the violence in GoT to be over the top. Especially not compared to some of the stuff tarantino has done. Final hitler scene from IB comes to mind.


For a fantasty/medieval setting, it's really not that bad at all. Christ I think Braveheart was worse.
Agreed. It's also a show about conquering a kingdom, so I don't see how you can make a show about battles and wars, with little violence and killings.
Not to mention the fantasy side of it with Dragons, witches, body shifter and ghost like creatures..

I really love BB and Sons of Anarchy, but Game of Thrones is definitely my fav.

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09-24-2013, 02:40 PM
  #350
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDaddy View Post
Homeland is one of my favorites. Claire Danes is a bit over the top but its a really great show...Season 3 starts on Sunday I believe.....


Meanwhile, I have heard so much hype about Breaking Bad I am going to check it out. Season 1 episode 1 starting in about 5 minutes.....
Bet you can't watch just one

Stick with it, the character development is really amazing.

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