HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

O'Byrne/Bournival trade revisited

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-22-2013, 01:02 PM
  #576
Zathronas
Registered User
 
Zathronas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Indeed, it was arguably his best move. As of today, it is still mediocre at best.

The 'ridiculously overpaid' Cammalleri still doing what is ultimately expected from him - put up points. He has 24 goals/ 51 points in 72 games with the Flames and likely will be traded this deadline for at least a 2nd round pick just based on his playoff history and expiring contract.

Bourque has 3 more years left on his deal and has 12 goals/21 points in 65 games + equally inconsistent not only in terms of scoring but physical play/engagement.

Ramo (penciled in as Flames starter) / 2nd (Fucale) is a wash right now. Tough to predict how this will pan out and frankly not the key parts of the deal. Plus points for Gauthier for getting a 2nd that ended up being in the 30s. Plus points for Gauthier for getting Ramo in the first place.

That's where I'd give credit. Cammy/Bourque swap? I think people are overrating Bourque's value to the team and underrating Cammy's abilities while overstating his 'cancer' traits.
If you all remember, Cammalleri only said what every other player on the habs team thought at that point. We call him a cancer because he had the gall to say the truth at the time. 1 year later everybody was saying the same thing and Molson changed the front office. It's like what J.S Giguere said about Colorado last year and he isn't considered a cancer but a leader.

Zathronas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 01:08 PM
  #577
obcd1
Registered User
 
obcd1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 709
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Looking not so bad is probably a better statement at this point.

Trading a 2nd round pick + 1st to move up a few spots in the late 1st round is perhaps better left unmentioned if we're looking at positives... Drafting is all Timmins + his staff.
Oscar Lindberg + Mark Visentin for Jarred Tinordi

obcd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 01:12 PM
  #578
WhiskeySeven
Retired. Bye.
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,585
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
If you all remember, Cammalleri only said what every other player on the habs team thought at that point. We call him a cancer because he had the gall to say the truth at the time. 1 year later everybody was saying the same thing and Molson changed the front office. It's like what J.S Giguere said about Colorado last year and he isn't considered a cancer but a leader.
The problem wasn't with what Cammy said - it was with his play. He was god damn useless and god damn expensive.

WhiskeySeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 01:15 PM
  #579
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 16,388
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
If you all remember, Cammalleri only said what every other player on the habs team thought at that point. We call him a cancer because he had the gall to say the truth at the time. 1 year later everybody was saying the same thing and Molson changed the front office. It's like what J.S Giguere said about Colorado last year and he isn't considered a cancer but a leader.
Cammy was part of the problem, and spouting off didn't help...he bacame scared of his own shadow, and was awful at the end of his Habs days...just awful...

BLONG7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 01:19 PM
  #580
obcd1
Registered User
 
obcd1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 709
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Looking not so bad is probably a better statement at this point.

Trading a 2nd round pick + 1st to move up a few spots in the late 1st round is perhaps better left unmentioned if we're looking at positives... Drafting is all Timmins + his staff.
Oscar Lindberg + Mark Visentin for Jarred Tinordi

obcd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 01:31 PM
  #581
Marc BargainBin
only on playstation
 
Marc BargainBin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,713
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by obcd1 View Post
Oscar Lindberg + Mark Visentin for Jarred Tinordi
That's a poor evaluation of the trade; we don't know how Timmins would have approached those picks..

That being said; I'm happy about how this is working out.

Marc BargainBin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 01:41 PM
  #582
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
The problem wasn't with what Cammy said - it was with his play. He was god damn useless and god damn expensive.
Nothing wrong with what he said. Too many ******** fans that were doing their damndest at protecting the crappy job of the management and coaching staff.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 01:57 PM
  #583
Sorinth
Registered User
 
Sorinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,432
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
If you all remember, Cammalleri only said what every other player on the habs team thought at that point. We call him a cancer because he had the gall to say the truth at the time. 1 year later everybody was saying the same thing and Molson changed the front office. It's like what J.S Giguere said about Colorado last year and he isn't considered a cancer but a leader.
Feaster has been quoted as saying they had been working on the for over a month. We didn't trade him because of the comments, it was merely the reason we pulled the trigger right then instead of negotiating more/waiting for trade deadline.

There was a noticeable change in Cammy's attitude after the 1st year. He didn't seem to be enjoying himself on the ice as much. We don't know why that took place, maybe he was sulking because he didn't get the Captaincy, or because Martin made fun of him in the room, or because the injuries were on his mind, or maybe his GF stopped putting out, who knows. The bottom line was he was not living up to his contract, and from an outside point of view seemed like he wasn't meshing well in the locker room anymore.

Sorinth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 02:21 PM
  #584
ZARTONK
Headscratcher!
 
ZARTONK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Armenia
Posts: 9,224
vCash: 500
God, I thought we brought him back...

ZARTONK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 02:49 PM
  #585
_vivelequebec_
Registered User
 
_vivelequebec_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montréal
Country: Martinique
Posts: 476
vCash: 500
I know someone who's friend with Bournival (yeah I know lol) and he describes him as a training beast and a player with a great work ethic. Plus it seems he was happy as **** when he was traded to Montréal.


Last edited by _vivelequebec_: 09-22-2013 at 02:55 PM.
_vivelequebec_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 02:51 PM
  #586
WhiskeySeven
Retired. Bye.
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,585
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by _vivelequebec_ View Post
I know someone who's friend with Bournival (yeah I know) and he describes him as a training beast and a player with a great work ethic. Plus it seems he was happy as **** when he was traded to Montréal.
It hasn't been that easy but I think he's on the cusp right now. Excellent training camp so far.

WhiskeySeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 03:15 PM
  #587
Steve Shutt
Don't Poke the Bear
 
Steve Shutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: Colombia
Posts: 525
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Indeed, it was arguably his best move. As of today, it is still mediocre at best.

The 'ridiculously overpaid' Cammalleri still doing what is ultimately expected from him - put up points. He has 24 goals/ 51 points in 72 games with the Flames and likely will be traded this deadline for at least a 2nd round pick just based on his playoff history and expiring contract.

Bourque has 3 more years left on his deal and has 12 goals/21 points in 65 games + equally inconsistent not only in terms of scoring but physical play/engagement.

Ramo (penciled in as Flames starter) / 2nd (Fucale) is a wash right now. Tough to predict how this will pan out and frankly not the key parts of the deal. Plus points for Gauthier for getting a 2nd that ended up being in the 30s. Plus points for Gauthier for getting Ramo in the first place.

That's where I'd give credit. Cammy/Bourque swap? I think people are overrating Bourque's value to the team and underrating Cammy's abilities while overstating his 'cancer' traits.
Don't forget the wildcard is Holland at this point. We should also consider the 2.7M in salary saved that was re-invested in a guy like Murray (1.5M) and created space to trade for Parros (.9M)

So I see the trade this way:
Ramo = Fucale
4th < Holland
Cam < Bourque/Murray/Parros

Steve Shutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 03:22 PM
  #588
68*
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mount Olympus
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by _vivelequebec_ View Post
I know someone who's friend with Bournival (yeah I know lol) and he describes him as a training beast and a player with a great work ethic. Plus it seems he was happy as **** when he was traded to Montréal.


That's him when he was 16 years old I think. This guy is not a Ryan White. He goes hard in the gym.

(no homo)

68* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 03:26 PM
  #589
MonkeyBusiness
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 68 View Post


That's him when he was 16 years old I think. This guy is not a Ryan White. He goes hard in the gym.

(no homo)
Can't blame White, he was on a dream bulk.

MonkeyBusiness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 03:40 PM
  #590
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 5,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well they are wrong if they do. Head scouts and scouts know who those guys are. GM count on his head scout to tell him how great he thinks that or this pick is in order to make a move.

So in an event where a GM moves up and deals to pick a player, praise the GM for moving up.....but praise the head scout for the actual pick.
Or you praise the organization as a whole. It lives and dies as a unit. Trying to distribute praise and criticism is a dumb man's game.

No Team Needed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 03:50 PM
  #591
Whitesnake
Here we go again!
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 61,725
vCash: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Or you praise the organization as a whole. It lives and dies as a unit. Trying to distribute praise and criticism is a dumb man's game.
Thing is when it comes to evaluation, only the player is sat down or traded. Only the coach is fired. Only the GM is fired. Only the scouting departments is revamped. So if it doesn't work that way within the organization, not sure why it should work that way within a fanbase.

Problem with your theory is that the day we find that Therrien's message doesn,t get through anymore, I can't wait to hear you ask for everybody's head instead of just Therrien's....and we know it won't happen.

Whitesnake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 04:14 PM
  #592
No Team Needed
Registered User
 
No Team Needed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 5,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Thing is when it comes to evaluation, only the player is sat down or traded. Only the coach is fired. Only the GM is fired. Only the scouting departments is revamped. So if it doesn't work that way within the organization, not sure why it should work that way within a fanbase.

Problem with your theory is that the day we find that Therrien's message doesn,t get through anymore, I can't wait to hear you ask for everybody's head instead of just Therrien's....and we know it won't happen.
You're being very simple with this.

If an organization succeeds, it succeeds due to individual efforts coming together.

If an organization fails, it fails due to individual efforts failing to come together.

If one person is highlighted as the biggest problem in a failure, of course the individual is removed. But that doesn't mean only one person failed. It was still, and always is, a team effort.

When the goalie allows a goal, rarely was it a situation where the only failure was the goalie. Someone had to allow the opposing team puck possession, nobody stripped the puck, nobody defended the puck and then the goalie allowed it to go in. Collective failure. But if it's identified that someone missed their assignment on the ice or the goalie read the play poorly or a forward didn't hustle, you identify those issues.

Back to drafting, it's a team effort. You identify the problems when drafting is bad and remove them. That's why hardly anyone from the 2006 Entry Draft scouting team is still a part of the organization, though the one who is was identified as not the problem.

No Team Needed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 04:26 PM
  #593
Whitesnake
Here we go again!
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 61,725
vCash: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
You're being very simple with this.

If an organization succeeds, it succeeds due to individual efforts coming together.

If an organization fails, it fails due to individual efforts failing to come together.

If one person is highlighted as the biggest problem in a failure, of course the individual is removed. But that doesn't mean only one person failed. It was still, and always is, a team effort.

When the goalie allows a goal, rarely was it a situation where the only failure was the goalie. Someone had to allow the opposing team puck possession, nobody stripped the puck, nobody defended the puck and then the goalie allowed it to go in. Collective failure. But if it's identified that someone missed their assignment on the ice or the goalie read the play poorly or a forward didn't hustle, you identify those issues.

Back to drafting, it's a team effort. You identify the problems when drafting is bad and remove them. That's why hardly anyone from the 2006 Entry Draft scouting team is still a part of the organization, though the one who is was identified as not the problem.
See and I believe you are very simple with this. Yes, a collective sport is a team effort. When a team play, it's often based on tons of things that went right or wrong so you are then able to name the team as the one responsible for it. Thing is, even amongst themselves, you hear Therrien speak and you often hear how he wished the goalie would have been better...how is defensive squad should have been more alert...and wonder why his top 6 offensive players didn't score more. But when it's time to evaluate, you do on an individual basis.

Back to drafting, it's not a team's effort. Reason why the 1998 draft, one of the best draft in Habs history could not be a proof that Réjean Houle wasn't as bad as GM as he really was 'cause in the end, he had nothing to do with it. Yes, let's take this year, the "idea" from the whole management was probably, like it was demanded by most of this fanbase for at least the last 10 years, to get bigger. Yet, finding the players and using the picks to get the right players is a scouting job. Going back to 2006, the head scout it's still the one who takes decisions. And keeping him was still the right move, not because that pick sucked, but because all and all, he's still amongst the ones who was the best in his position. Just like the 1st rounder in 2003 wasn't surely the right one....or like the 2004 draft....In the end, a GM will be judged based on the players' movements he makes from trades to signings. A coach for his system and how he handles his players, a scouting team based on how they scout and so on.....I don't see how it's bad to primarily target a certain group for a certain job to do. Yes, in the end, if everything goes great and you end up winning a Cup, it does become a team's effort. We all know that. But in between, people will be evaluated on their field of work. Nothing wrong with that. If in the end I learn that Patrice Brisebois's work with Darren Dietz changed totally Dietz as a player and improved him a whole lot...why can't I praise Brisebois? Yes, you can add Bergevin with the idea that he's the one who believed in having more people on board compared to Gainey and Gauthier. No problem with that. But there's no need to include everybody when I know that the main target of this praise by a player is one man. When we learned that Sylvain Lefebvre might not be doing that great of a job last year....who was targeted for it? Lefebvre immensely and Bergevin for thinking of him in the first place....but did anybody thought of bashing the entire organization for the move?

I think that frankly, we are still able to recognize a team's effort when we see it. We all know that everybody talks to each other. But we do know that one is in charge in his own field of expertise. And in the end, like in every business, he is the one who gets the praise and the bashing. People who are under the radar get their own set of praise and bashing but from their very own boss. And in the very end, when things did go very well or very bad, most likely everybody will get their share. But in sport, it will always be the same who will eventually be targeted. If we don't progress, Larry Carrière will not get as much heat as Bergevin will.


Last edited by Whitesnake: 09-22-2013 at 04:34 PM.
Whitesnake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 04:33 PM
  #594
Runner77
******************
 
Runner77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 15,780
vCash: 45138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZARTONK View Post
God, I thought we brought him back...
lol, had the same reaction -- wish they had changed the thread title or started a new thread.

I admit that I was skeptical about Bournival when we acquired him. This year's pre-season has been a true eye-opener. He deserves to make the team, no doubt.

Runner77 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 04:33 PM
  #595
Andy
Moderator
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,234
vCash: 500
lol Ryan O'byrne

Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 04:36 PM
  #596
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 16,496
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathronas View Post
If you all remember, Cammalleri only said what every other player on the habs team thought at that point. We call him a cancer because he had the gall to say the truth at the time. 1 year later everybody was saying the same thing and Molson changed the front office. It's like what J.S Giguere said about Colorado last year and he isn't considered a cancer but a leader.
If Cammalleri were merely a troublemaker it would be one thing. Unfortunately, he wasn't playing well. He wasn't scoring and wasn't nearly carrying his weight on the ice. He was a defensive liability. It seems the other players weren't sorry to see him go. The Habs received ample value in exchange for him.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 09:35 PM
  #597
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Indeed, it was arguably his best move. As of today, it is still mediocre at best.

The 'ridiculously overpaid' Cammalleri still doing what is ultimately expected from him - put up points. He has 24 goals/ 51 points in 72 games with the Flames and likely will be traded this deadline for at least a 2nd round pick just based on his playoff history and expiring contract.

Bourque has 3 more years left on his deal and has 12 goals/21 points in 65 games + equally inconsistent not only in terms of scoring but physical play/engagement.

Ramo (penciled in as Flames starter) / 2nd (Fucale) is a wash right now. Tough to predict how this will pan out and frankly not the key parts of the deal. Plus points for Gauthier for getting a 2nd that ended up being in the 30s. Plus points for Gauthier for getting Ramo in the first place.

That's where I'd give credit. Cammy/Bourque swap? I think people are overrating Bourque's value to the team and underrating Cammy's abilities while overstating his 'cancer' traits.
Yes cammy is still doing what he does, stand around and let everyone else do the work. What a superstar, I wonder how well he will do without Iginla to leech off of.

Bourque was one of our best players last year on our top line. He was clearly suffering from injuries but why talk about that when your bias is so brutally clear.

"Ramo/Fucale" is a wash? Ya ok, we get a rising talent in Fucale for Ramo who couldn't even make it on several terrible nhl teams.

If you think Bourques addition is over-rated you aren't watching the games, put down the stats page and turn on your tv.

OneSharpMarble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 09:36 PM
  #598
Mr. Hab
Registered User
 
Mr. Hab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,392
vCash: 500
The investment/trade is definitely paying off!! (Bournival for O'Byrne).
Great trade...I was 50-50 at first with the trade (but it quickly grew on me!).

UPside: solid solid 3rd liner...reliable/playoff warrior.
DOWNside:consistent, hard-working 3rd liner.




p.s.:
COMPARISONS (for those who like comparisons!):
Just curious to know who some of you would compare Bournival's style to?


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 09-22-2013 at 09:44 PM.
Mr. Hab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 09:38 PM
  #599
Born in 1909
Hockey Royalty
 
Born in 1909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,963
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZARTONK View Post
God, I thought we brought him back...
This thread is much too old.

Let it die...

Born in 1909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-22-2013, 09:53 PM
  #600
25get
Registered User
 
25get's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,947
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Yes cammy is still doing what he does, stand around and let everyone else do the work. What a superstar, I wonder how well he will do without Iginla to leech off of.

Bourque was one of our best players last year on our top line. He was clearly suffering from injuries but why talk about that when your bias is so brutally clear.

"Ramo/Fucale" is a wash? Ya ok, we get a rising talent in Fucale for Ramo who couldn't even make it on several terrible nhl teams.

If you think Bourques addition is over-rated you aren't watching the games, put down the stats page and turn on your tv.
He played in TBL only in NHL at 21 and 22 years old.

Last four seasons, he dominated in KHL and was putting numbers similar to Bobrovsky last year.

I am not saying he is going to be a top-10 goalies but you should wait a bit before saying that he is a plug.
I am pretty curious about him.

25get is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:42 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.