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Seattle IV: The Money Will Roll Right In

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Old
09-22-2013, 12:21 AM
  #251
NYR89
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Not all of those 18k will be driving. Putting a new arena over by the Key makes things even worse as there's less access to public transportation than there is in the stadium district which means more of those 18k will be driving then there would be for a stadium near Safeco/Century Link. I know if I'm going to an NHL game at an arena in the stadium district I'm driving up to Seatac and taking the light rail in.
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Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
Exactly the point. Not everyone will be driving to the sodo arena and in the near future even less word with the expansion of lightrail north south and east.
It is evident that putting it where Key is makes no sense and that's completely understood. Simply "replacing" Key isn't a viable option.

Who says less people would drive? You're going to a game downtown that wouldn't stay until 7 or 7:30. The bus system in Seattle is incredibly unreliable as it gets later in the evening. Especially when you're coming from further away. More people will always drive because of the convenience. Having the public transportation there is absolutely necessary because it does elevate some of the strain on the traffic gridlocks we have here in Seattle, but again, simply adding to the arena traffic to the already existing traffic is not the correct thing to do. I would give it 2 months max because season ticket holders for all teams start complaining about the traffic. It already happens with Sounders/Mariners season ticket holders on combined event days whether it be traffic or parking related.

Edit: Also, the maturity level of the discussion that goes on in here is fantastic. There aren't personal attacks when there are two different points of view. It's incredibly refreshing.

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09-22-2013, 12:38 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by NYR89 View Post
Edit: Also, the maturity level of the discussion that goes on in here is fantastic. There aren't personal attacks when there are two different points of view. It's incredibly refreshing.
It isn't always so pleasant around here but the site is well moderated so it doesn't usually get out of hand.

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09-22-2013, 12:43 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by NYR89 View Post
It is evident that putting it where Key is makes no sense and that's completely understood. Simply "replacing" Key isn't a viable option.

Who says less people would drive? You're going to a game downtown that wouldn't stay until 7 or 7:30. The bus system in Seattle is incredibly unreliable as it gets later in the evening. Especially when you're coming from further away. More people will always drive because of the convenience. Having the public transportation there is absolutely necessary because it does elevate some of the strain on the traffic gridlocks we have here in Seattle, but again, simply adding to the arena traffic to the already existing traffic is not the correct thing to do. I would give it 2 months max because season ticket holders for all teams start complaining about the traffic. It already happens with Sounders/Mariners season ticket holders on combined event days whether it be traffic or parking related.

Edit: Also, the maturity level of the discussion that goes on in here is fantastic. There aren't personal attacks when there are two different points of view. It's incredibly refreshing.
and how many times do we see a combined game between sounders/mariners at the same time not that often. Let assume Sounders get ~40k(for most home games) , mariners get ~22k(current average) and NHL/NBA gets ~18k Sounders/mariners = 62k Sounders/ NBA or NHL = ~58k and Mariners/NBA or NHL = ~40k. This is at the same day same time.

on a typical NHL/NBA day with out no other sport games going on at the same time there won't be 18k people driving to Seattle.

In terms of overlap there probably be at the most 4 games overlapping. Its all on how you schedule it.


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09-22-2013, 09:22 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
and how many times do we see a combined game between sounders/mariners at the same time not that often. Let assume Sounders get ~40k(for most home games) , mariners get ~22k(current average) and NHL/NBA gets ~18k Sounders/mariners = 62k Sounders/ NBA or NHL = ~58k and Mariners/NBA or NHL = ~40k. This is at the same day same time.

on a typical NHL/NBA day with out no other sport games going on at the same time there won't be 18k people driving to Seattle.

In terms of overlap there probably be at the most 4 games overlapping. Its all on how you schedule it.
You're correct that she sports events probably won't overlap a ton. Realistically, you'd have some overlap in September with preseason NHL/NBA. October if the Mariners make the playoffs. April-June depending on the playoff runs of the respective NHL/NBA teams. So you're looking at a max of 4.5 months of overlap. To me, that's not a huge deal.

The bigger issue becomes the concerts/events the arena is going to have. They will run when the team(s) are out of town and in the office. Being brand new, it's going to draw acts that would go to the Tacoma Dome/Key normally. It's going to cause significant overlap year round. To me it's the biggest issue. The venues are going to share parking garages. When there are overlapped events it makes parking more challenging than it already is.

Hansen wants to close all of Occidental for the "party plaza" he wants. How do buses/equipment trucks get into the garage in the Safe? The whole back side entrance/exit would be cutoff of the garage. You would have one way in/out out of that garage and it would be the worst.

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09-22-2013, 10:49 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by NYR89 View Post
Your argument is that there will be traffic regardless and that's a valid point. However, you're going to add an additional 18k people coming into traffic that is already horrendous. How is that in anyway a good idea? It's an awful idea. It's a good way to have people that spent good money miss parts of their event because traffic is gridlocked and they can't find a place to park in a fashionable amount of time.
It is only additional on days when other events are going on which will be rare otherwise it is less than Seahawks or Sounders game nights. Mariners will be about the same. It seems your argument is that the NBA and NHL should not come to Seattle at all because no matter where a new building goes it will create traffic. Sodo is probably better equipped to handle the traffic than anywhere else in the Seattle city area.

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09-22-2013, 11:00 AM
  #256
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You're correct that she sports events probably won't overlap a ton. Realistically, you'd have some overlap in September with preseason NHL/NBA. October if the Mariners make the playoffs. April-June depending on the playoff runs of the respective NHL/NBA teams. So you're looking at a max of 4.5 months of overlap. To me, that's not a huge deal.

The bigger issue becomes the concerts/events the arena is going to have. They will run when the team(s) are out of town and in the office. Being brand new, it's going to draw acts that would go to the Tacoma Dome/Key normally. It's going to cause significant overlap year round. To me it's the biggest issue. The venues are going to share parking garages. When there are overlapped events it makes parking more challenging than it already is.

Hansen wants to close all of Occidental for the "party plaza" he wants. How do buses/equipment trucks get into the garage in the Safe? The whole back side entrance/exit would be cutoff of the garage. You would have one way in/out out of that garage and it would be the worst.
Again concerts scheduling will ALSO have to follow that city rule when they get scheduled. Good god ENOUGH. Ever consider that cars can get to the parking garage through S Mass street. Seesh enough already. Also ever consider traffic is actually GOOD for Seattle.


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09-22-2013, 11:51 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
Again concerts scheduling will ALSO have to follow that city rule when they get scheduled. Good god ENOUGH. Ever consider that cars can get to the parking garage through S Mass street. Seesh enough already. Also ever consider traffic is actually GOOD for Seattle.
You couldn't use S Mass to get in. That whole back side would be closed. Hansen wants it to be a pedestrian only street leading into the arena.

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09-22-2013, 01:01 PM
  #258
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You couldn't use S Mass to get in. That whole back side would be closed. Hansen wants it to be a pedestrian only street leading into the arena.
Have you seen the latest arena drawings yes they CAN. I'm done arguing.


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09-22-2013, 01:29 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by NYR89 View Post
Your argument is that there will be traffic regardless and that's a valid point. However, you're going to add an additional 18k people coming into traffic that is already horrendous. How is that in anyway a good idea? It's an awful idea. It's a good way to have people that spent good money miss parts of their event because traffic is gridlocked and they can't find a place to park in a fashionable amount of time.
Let's do recall one thing: light rail didn't start rolling until a year after the Sonics left... and 11 years after the citizens first voted for it. Expansion of the system would be more than nice. Having it does help.

Still, this is something where you ought to be able to point to another city and understand the effects of this sort of grouping on traffic. In theory, the grouping together is kind of neat. In practice, it's questionable. Even in cities that have four majors (and, for that matter, four or more facilities), someone is in a suburb... or someone is the other side of downtown from the other places.

The Wild are in St. Paul and the Metrodome is a fair distance from the Targets. Cleveland has three facilities in roughly similar distances to Minneapolis.

Atlanta has the arena and the Georgia Dome next to each other, but Turner Field is across downtown.

Boston... the Patriots are closer to Providence by a mile or so.

Detroit might be as tight as I can find... and Joe Louis Arena is on the riverfront while Comerica and Ford Field are the other side of downtown.

If you throw in MLS, Houston has Toyota Center and BBVA Compass Stadium relatively near Minute Maid Park, all theoretically downtown. The soccer stadium is the other side of an expressway from the others and is somewhat regarded as more neighborhood than downtown.

Pittsburgh might be considered tight, but the outdoor facilities are the other side of the river from downtown... and there's a couple criss-cross freeways to help out.

Denver: Invesco at Mile High really isn't downtown. Their three facilities are rather well-spaced.

So the point stands: the scale to which this is being proposed in Seattle just isn't done elsewhere in America (nor Canada, frankly). There has to be a bit of consternation with the planners on this one.

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09-22-2013, 01:33 PM
  #260
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Let's do recall one thing: light rail didn't start rolling until a year after the Sonics left... and 11 years after the citizens first voted for it. Expansion of the system would be more than nice. Having it does help.

Still, this is something where you ought to be able to point to another city and understand the effects of this sort of grouping on traffic. In theory, the grouping together is kind of neat. In practice, it's questionable. Even in cities that have four majors (and, for that matter, four or more facilities), someone is in a suburb... or someone is the other side of downtown from the other places.

The Wild are in St. Paul and the Metrodome is a fair distance from the Targets. Cleveland has three facilities in roughly similar distances to Minneapolis.

Most cities have mass transit already in place for the sport stadiums seattle finally got to it after something should been done in the 60's

Atlanta has the arena and the Georgia Dome next to each other, but Turner Field is across downtown.

Boston... the Patriots are closer to Providence by a mile or so.

Detroit might be as tight as I can find... and Joe Louis Arena is on the riverfront while Comerica and Ford Field are the other side of downtown.

If you throw in MLS, Houston has Toyota Center and BBVA Compass Stadium relatively near Minute Maid Park, all theoretically downtown. The soccer stadium is the other side of an expressway from the others and is somewhat regarded as more neighborhood than downtown.

Pittsburgh might be considered tight, but the outdoor facilities are the other side of the river from downtown... and there's a couple criss-cross freeways to help out.

Denver: Invesco at Mile High really isn't downtown. Their three facilities are rather well-spaced.

So the point stands: the scale to which this is being proposed in Seattle just isn't done elsewhere in America (nor Canada, frankly). There has to be a bit of consternation with the planners on this one.
Philadelphia has stadiums very close to each other. The issue regarding game traffic for all 3 stadiums is not that huge of a issue. Its all on how its scheduled. And its a requirement that the arena operator has to follow those same rules as the mariners seahawks and sounders.


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09-22-2013, 01:47 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by gstommylee View Post
Philadelphia has stadiums very close to each other. The issue regarding game traffic for all 3 stadiums is not that huge of a issue. Its all on how its scheduled. And its a requirement that the arena operator has to follow those same rules as the mariners seahawks and sounders.
But the Philly facilities are all almost as far south as you can get in the city. They are not near downtown.

The rules you keep citing... they are already hurting someone's business. Those rules are in place BEFORE you throw in an arena, and that should be raising alarms.

The real rub here... despite the outdoor amphitheaters within a few hours drive, despite the other facilities in the area, this arena SHOULD be a 300-event-a-year all-weather facility. This arena SHOULD kick butt at the turnstiles. So is Chris Hansen putting location ahead of utility, or does he think he can drive away the Mariners? Or has he just given lip service to the NHL all this time? Or is his siting here just emotional?

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09-22-2013, 01:52 PM
  #262
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But the Philly facilities are all almost as far south as you can get in the city. They are not near downtown.

The rules you keep citing... they are already hurting someone's business. Those rules are in place BEFORE you throw in an arena, and that should be raising alarms.

The real rub here... despite the outdoor amphitheaters within a few hours drive, despite the other facilities in the area, this arena SHOULD be a 300-event-a-year all-weather facility. This arena SHOULD kick butt at the turnstiles. So is Chris Hansen putting location ahead of utility, or does he think he can drive away the Mariners? Or has he just given lip service to the NHL all this time? Or is his siting here just emotional?
The rules are that you have to have 4 hours between events to reduce the issues of major traffic issue with mulitple sporting events going on at the same time. There aren't going to be 300 events at the arena.

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09-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #263
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I get it: We should go the Phoenix route and stick the arena in whatever the Seattle equivalent of Glendale is

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09-22-2013, 02:14 PM
  #264
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I get it: We should go the Phoenix route and stick the arena in whatever the Seattle equivalent of Glendale is
Gaaaaaahhh!

I would never have been in the business of even having the suggestion of siting a new arena where Key Arena stands if I hadn't looked at ALL the other cities. There's better locations, but after studying this a bit, I think that's an improvement over this proposal. (Disclaimer: that's without really understanding how the relocation of the Alaskan Way Viaduct affects the area- where will the access points be?)

Another idea: the local convention center was built right over I-5 closer to the center of downtown. Now in a post-9/11 world, I'm not sure the prospect of an arena over the freeway excites Homeland Security, but if you could tack onto the convention center and emphasize transit, I think you have something. (Disclaimer: I actually did drive under Market Square Arena in Indianapolis, obviously long before 9/11 and long before they blew it up. But that wasn't over a freeway.)

You don't have to run to the suburbs... though before the last gas price explosion, I'd found that suburban NFL stadia were more likely to sell out than downtown NFL stadia. Football is the true suburban sport IMO.

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09-22-2013, 02:20 PM
  #265
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Gaaaaaahhh!

I would never have been in the business of even having the suggestion of siting a new arena where Key Arena stands if I hadn't looked at ALL the other cities. There's better locations, but after studying this a bit, I think that's an improvement over this proposal. (Disclaimer: that's without really understanding how the relocation of the Alaskan Way Viaduct affects the area- where will the access points be?)

Another idea: the local convention center was built right over I-5 closer to the center of downtown. Now in a post-9/11 world, I'm not sure the prospect of an arena over the freeway excites Homeland Security, but if you could tack onto the convention center and emphasize transit, I think you have something. (Disclaimer: I actually did drive under Market Square Arena in Indianapolis, obviously long before 9/11 and long before they blew it up. But that wasn't over a freeway.)

You don't have to run to the suburbs... though before the last gas price explosion, I'd found that suburban NFL stadia were more likely to sell out than downtown NFL stadia. Football is the true suburban sport IMO.
This MOU is an agreement with the city of seattle and King county to built an arena in seattle. Traffic will be MUCH WORSE if the new arena was built at key arena site or at the Memorial stadium site than it would be in Sodo.

Question have you been to seattle before specifically Key arena.

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09-22-2013, 02:20 PM
  #266
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Gaaaaaahhh!

I would never have been in the business of even having the suggestion of siting a new arena where Key Arena stands if I hadn't looked at ALL the other cities. There's better locations, but after studying this a bit, I think that's an improvement over this proposal. (Disclaimer: that's without really understanding how the relocation of the Alaskan Way Viaduct affects the area- where will the access points be?)

Another idea: the local convention center was built right over I-5 closer to the center of downtown. Now in a post-9/11 world, I'm not sure the prospect of an arena over the freeway excites Homeland Security, but if you could tack onto the convention center and emphasize transit, I think you have something. (Disclaimer: I actually did drive under Market Square Arena in Indianapolis, obviously long before 9/11 and long before they blew it up. But that wasn't over a freeway.)

You don't have to run to the suburbs... though before the last gas price explosion, I'd found that suburban NFL stadia were more likely to sell out than downtown NFL stadia. Football is the true suburban sport IMO.
Methinks you're missing the sarcasm in my post

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09-22-2013, 02:21 PM
  #267
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I get it: We should go the Phoenix route and stick the arena in whatever the Seattle equivalent of Glendale is
Seriously, this discussion about traffic is getting ridiculous. You could build it 20 miles outside Seattle and guess what, there still would be traffic on event days.

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09-22-2013, 02:24 PM
  #268
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Seriously, this discussion about traffic is getting ridiculous. You could build it 20 miles outside Seattle and guess what, there still would be traffic on event days.
The thing is, people here have no idea what truly bad traffic is. I'm from the Washington DC metro area. Does anyone here have any conception of what the Beltway looks like when FedEx field lets out after an Redskins' game? The kind of traffic Seattle would get from the new arena is child's play compared to DC traffic for ANY event or hell just everyday DC traffic.

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09-22-2013, 02:25 PM
  #269
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The thing is, people here have no idea what truly bad traffic is. I'm from the Washington DC metro area. Does anyone here have any conception of what the Beltway looks like when FedEx field lets out after an Redskins' game? The kind of traffic Seattle would get from the new arena is child's play compared to DC traffic for ANY event or hell just everyday DC traffic.
Or how about LA for example even NY. Saettle is considered a small city compared to other major cities in the US.

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09-22-2013, 02:27 PM
  #270
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Or how about LA for example.
LA is about the only place in the country worse than DC.

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09-22-2013, 02:29 PM
  #271
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Methinks you're missing the sarcasm in my post
I'm trying to live a sarcasm-free life. It's really hard, but I'm trying.

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09-22-2013, 02:36 PM
  #272
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You're all correct that Seattle traffic doesn't sniff major city traffic. I've been in Seattle from the east coast for just over a year. The major concern, relative to Seattle, is congestion causing large amounts of people to miss the start of events. As an organization, that's the last thing you want. Plus, any successful arena has 300+ events a year. That's a must for an arena.

The Philadelphia comparison doesn't really work here. The 3 venues (Link, Citizens, Wells Fargo) are essentially built in parking lots. All around all three venues is purely parking. They don't have the same issues. It's also outside of downtown.


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09-22-2013, 02:56 PM
  #273
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You're all correct that Seattle traffic doesn't sniff major city traffic. I've been in Seattle from the east coast for just over a year. The major concern, relative to Seattle, is congestion causing large amounts of people to miss the start of events. As an organization, that's the last thing you want. Plus, any successful arena has 300+ events a year. That's a must for an arena.

The Philadelphia comparison doesn't really work here. The 3 venues (Link, Citizens, Wells Fargo) are essentially built in parking lots. All around all three venues is purely parking. They don't have the same issues. It's also outside of downtown.
People are late for events due to poor planning on their part. When a new venue opens up there will be issues but people are smart enough to figure out what it takes to be on time. Every city has it's own unique situations and the people that live in those cities adapt to go those venues offered in that city that interest them. Seattle is no different in that regard.


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09-23-2013, 11:05 AM
  #274
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http://blogs.sacbee.com/sports/kings...#mi_rss=Sports

Shaq joins NBA Sacramento Kings ownership group.



(I don't remember if I posted the link or not, but Jay-Z is divesting his ownership in the NBA Brooklyn team.)

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09-23-2013, 01:22 PM
  #275
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This has probably been covered already, but why can't they just knock down Key and put the arena there? It would be a decent spot for it. I still don't think right next to Safeco/Clink is a good idea. This place will turn into a nightmare.
I'm late to this, but the foot print of a NHL sized arena would not work at that location. Also you think Traffic in the SODO area would be bad? Put that arena in Queen Anne and it would be a disaster.


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Yep, for example I have the feeling the Port/ILWU wouldn't have their hands out if the city magically decided to direct tax money towards building the Lander Street overpass.
.
They as much said that. That the city didn't take care of them, with the lander overpass, so now they are going to ***** about this.




MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 09-23-2013 at 01:48 PM. Reason: I moved it here since the ONLY reason we care about the Kings was relational to Seattle
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