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Old
09-22-2013, 07:13 PM
  #26
FLYguy3911
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
No, I'm not overly impressed with Gus' play on the pp but as you pointed out yourself it's a small sample size and considering the Flyers won't have any better options unless something drastic happens he'll get pp time assuming of course Kimmo doesn't come back. I was merely pointing out that Schenn mostly definitely won't get pp time when Gus is available as you stated.
Kimmo and Streit are clearly a cut above Gus. They most likely go with 4 forwards on each unit. Meszaros if he's still here probably gets the nod above him as well. I don't see him getting much time on the PP this year. And when he get's the chance, he doesn't make anything of it. He presses and makes poor decisions. He just doesn't look comfortable at all. And the game the other day didn't look much different.

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Andd as far as Ghost is concerned he needs to dominate college before we can talk about giving him a bigger challenge. In one years time if he tried to make the jump to the NHL he would get destroyed. There's a reason most d-man don't make the jump straight from juniors/college to the NHL.
You can look at stats and say he didn't dominate, but aside from a stretch after the WJC's he was about a PPG defenseman as a 19 year old. Every game I watched of Union (only a handful obviously), he's been the best or one of the best players on the ice despite being one of the youngest. He absolutely dominated BC in the tournament.

I'm not expecting him to jump straight to the NHL, but I also don't think he's 3 years away like most others. He's too talented. Yeah you can say he's too small, but he can hold his own, and he has the tools to avoid the big hit.

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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Ice time is still ice time and the team will suffer if Kimmo is asked to play 22 minutes as a 38 year old.

Streit has a better shot and shouldn't be on the PK unless there's an emergency. He should be given every chance to contribute on the power play.
Like I said before, there's tough minutes and not so tough minutes. The PP and PK are not tough minutes. It's static hockey. If you want to cut his minutes you do it at even strength.

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Old
09-22-2013, 07:26 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
Kimmo and Streit are clearly a cut above Gus. They most likely go with 4 forwards on each unit. Meszaros if he's still here probably gets the nod above him as well. I don't see him getting much time on the PP this year. And when he get's the chance, he doesn't make anything of it. He presses and makes poor decisions. He just doesn't look comfortable at all. And the game the other day didn't look much different.



You can look at stats and say he didn't dominate, but aside from a stretch after the WJC's he was about a PPG defenseman as a 19 year old. Every game I watched of Union (only a handful obviously), he's been the best or one of the best players on the ice despite being one of the youngest. He absolutely dominated BC in the tournament.

I'm not expecting him to jump straight to the NHL, but I also don't think he's 3 years away like most others. He's too talented. Yeah you can say he's too small, but he can hold his own, and he has the tools to avoid the big hit.



Like I said before, there's tough minutes and not so tough minutes. The PP and PK are not tough minutes. It's static hockey. If you want to cut his minutes you do it at even strength.

But we aren't talking about this year. We're talking about next season when Mez is gone and Kimmo's return is uncertain. At that point he is the 2nd pp point guy. And again he needs experience at the point to be comfortable, it's gonna take time.

Agree to disagree about Ghost. I see him finishing college (two years) and then a yr in the AHL (at least to start). The reason being 4 spots as of now are already taken, leaving two one of which could very well be Gus. I also think Morin and Hagg compete for a spot before further diminishing his chances of making the team in less then three yrs.

Btw pk is very tough. Maybe not much movement but its filled with board battles and diving to block shots. I agree though if Kimmo's minutes are cut it won't be pp minutes, it would be ES.

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Old
09-22-2013, 07:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
But we aren't talking about this year. We're talking about next season when Mez is gone and Kimmo's return is uncertain. At that point he is the 2nd pp point guy. And again he needs experience at the point to be comfortable, it's gonna take time.

Agree to disagree about Ghost. I see him finishing college (two years) and then a yr in the AHL (at least to start). The reason being 4 spots as of now are already taken, leaving two one of which could very well be Gus. I also think Morin and Hagg compete for a spot before further diminishing his chances of making the team in less then three yrs.
If Gus isn't playing the PP this year, he's not playing it next year either unless he really shows another level to his game. You mention the guys who won't be here next year, but you don't recognize the fact that guys could be coming in. If Kimmo retires, you can bet your ass Homer (if still employed) is going to do whatever it takes to get that #1 guy in here (or something close).

What 4 spots are taken? I see two- Schenn and Streit. Coburn and Grossmann are movable. While Morin and Hagg may be competing for a spot, neither brings what Gostisbehere brings.

You're looking a numbers. I'm looking at roles.

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Old
09-22-2013, 08:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
If Gus isn't playing the PP this year, he's not playing it next year either unless he really shows another level to his game. You mention the guys who won't be here next year, but you don't recognize the fact that guys could be coming in. If Kimmo retires, you can bet your ass Homer (if still employed) is going to do whatever it takes to get that #1 guy in here (or something close).

What 4 spots are taken? I see two- Schenn and Streit. Coburn and Grossmann are movable. While Morin and Hagg may be competing for a spot, neither brings what Gostisbehere brings.

You're looking a numbers. I'm looking at roles.
I said a bunch of times as of right now meaning I'm not counting on the Flyers trading people (Coburn or Grossmann) or trading for a number one (at that point the team could look totally different anyway so it's a moot point). Or prospects making the jump earlier then most expect and running a pp as a 21 yo rookie.

And why can't Gus play pp next yr if he doesn't primarily this yr? He'll be 25 turning 26, thats not old like at all for a d-man.

I never said if someone more capable is available they won't play cause that's Gus' job, I'm saying as of right now Gus is the only other option behind Streit likely to be here.

Morin, Hagg and Ghost all play different games that's true but the best d-man will make the roster not necessarily the one with the best offensive game.

I'm looking at what's most likely based on the current roster and our situation, not the "numbers".


Last edited by FlyersFan61290: 09-22-2013 at 08:48 PM.
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Old
09-22-2013, 09:34 PM
  #30
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Assuming they go with the umbrella again this year...

Down low: Hartnell - Simmonds
Half boards: Giroux - Voracek
On the point: Timonen

Down low: Couturier - Schenn
Half boards: Read - Lecavalier
On the point: Streit

Lecavalier is a better player than Hartnell and Simmonds, but I'd rather him be allowed to work wide with more space rather than around the net, so I put him in the second unit. There will be lots of shuffling depending on injuries and performance. The only real "guarantee" on the first unit is Giroux.

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Old
09-22-2013, 11:50 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I said a bunch of times as of right now meaning I'm not counting on the Flyers trading people (Coburn or Grossmann) or trading for a number one (at that point the team could look totally different anyway so it's a moot point). Or prospects making the jump earlier then most expect and running a pp as a 21 yo rookie.

And why can't Gus play pp next yr if he doesn't primarily this yr? He'll be 25 turning 26, thats not old like at all for a d-man.

I never said if someone more capable is available they won't play cause that's Gus' job, I'm saying as of right now Gus is the only other option behind Streit likely to be here.

Morin, Hagg and Ghost all play different games that's true but the best d-man will make the roster not necessarily the one with the best offensive game.

I'm looking at what's most likely based on the current roster and our situation, not the "numbers".
If you're not going to think outside of the box a little bit, why have the debate? That's like saying 'as of right now, Emery and Mason aren't under contract next year so Cal Heeter is the only other option'. No. It comes down to I don't think he's good enough to run a PP. Could it change? Maybe, but right now he's just a guy you throw out there in a pinch and hope for the best.

If he can't get PP time this year I don't see him getting a chance next year just because Timonen may not be here. It has nothing to do with his age. It tells you what they think about his ability. You're not going to take a guy out of a role for an entire year and then the next year just simply reinsert him.

The funny part about this whole thing is we are assuming he's playing a regular role this season. As it stands, the team currently has a slew of left handed defenseman.

In regards to Morin, Gostisbehere, and Hagg, you take the guy who's going to help your team win. If you need a puck mover with PP capabilities Gostisbehere is going to be the guy. If you need to add size, Morin's going to be the guy. The former is a more likely scenario. Morin may be able to defend better than Gostisbehere, but if I still have Coburn and Grossmann, he's kind of redundant. We saw last year what happened when we tried to improve our team defense by adding guys to strictly play defense. Everyone wanted Carle out of town but this team missed him whether people want to admit it or not.

And I see a lot of people expecting Hagg to compete next year. I don't see it. He's a nice looking prospect, but he went in the second round for a reason. He's got things to work on and he doesn't have a standout trait like the other two. He's good at a lot of things, great at nothing, which is a OK, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be in the NHL sooner. He's not Brodin. Go look at past drafts. When was the last time a 2nd round defenseman played as a 19 year old let alone a European? I went back to 2008 when Josi and Voynov were taken in the second round of a pretty good draft. They both needed three full seasons before becoming NHLers. I could see Hagg playing next year in Sweden and then needing another year (or most) in the AHL to adjust to the NA game.


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Old
09-23-2013, 06:57 AM
  #32
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Yeh, I do think Hagg will not ready until 15-16, the year after more likely. He will still only be 20 at the start of 15-16.

The one thing I may disagree with is him not being 'great' at anything... his skating ability is pretty fantastic, and his shot is great as well.

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Old
09-23-2013, 08:25 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
If you're not going to think outside of the box a little bit, why have the debate? That's like saying 'as of right now, Emery and Mason aren't under contract next year so Cal Heeter is the only other option'. No. It comes down to I don't think he's good enough to run a PP. Could it change? Maybe, but right now he's just a guy you throw out there in a pinch and hope for the best.
No I would say Mason is an RFA after this year and would be the go to guy. There is also a large UFA market of quality goalies next season the same can't be said for defensemen, specifically number one defensemen. It's no the same, like at all. Free agency and trades are entirely two different animals.

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If he can't get PP time this year I don't see him getting a chance next year just because Timonen may not be here. It has nothing to do with his age. It tells you what they think about his ability. You're not going to take a guy out of a role for an entire year and then the next year just simply reinsert him.
Yeah, it tells you they think he's not as good as Kimmo or Streit on the point. That's it. Again if no one better is available he'll be there, that's all I've ever said and I don't see how anyone can deny that.

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The funny part about this whole thing is we are assuming he's playing a regular role this season. As it stands, the team currently has a slew of left handed defenseman.
Well obviously if Mez is still on the team I would think he'll be that number six guy getting the tertiary pp minutes.

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In regards to Morin, Gostisbehere, and Hagg, you take the guy who's going to help your team win. If you need a puck mover with PP capabilities Gostisbehere is going to be the guy. If you need to add size, Morin's going to be the guy. The former is a more likely scenario. Morin may be able to defend better than Gostisbehere, but if I still have Coburn and Grossmann, he's kind of redundant. We saw last year what happened when we tried to improve our team defense by adding guys to strictly play defense. Everyone wanted Carle out of town but this team missed him whether people want to admit it or not.

And I see a lot of people expecting Hagg to compete next year. I don't see it. He's a nice looking prospect, but he went in the second round for a reason. He's got things to work on and he doesn't have a standout trait like the other two. He's good at a lot of things, great at nothing, which is a OK, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be in the NHL sooner. He's not Brodin. Go look at past drafts. When was the last time a 2nd round defenseman played as a 19 year old let alone a European? I went back to 2008 when Josi and Voynov were taken in the second round of a pretty good draft. They both needed three full seasons before becoming NHLers. I could see Hagg playing next year in Sweden and then needing another year (or most) in the AHL to adjust to the NA game.
I don't think I said Morin or Hagg will be playing in the NHL next year. All I said is that they would be competing for a job around the same time as Ghost, which I think is minimum two years. And you're not giving Morin enough credit. He's much more then just size, he's an excellent skater and while he may not have the offensive potential of Ghost he moves the puck very well. Similarly many consider Hagg to be a steal in the 2nd round cause some had him ranked as high as 25 (Flyers if I'm not mistaken). If the Flyers think he's a 1st round talent based on their scouting, conversations with Forsberg, Renberg and all that I wouldn't consider him a second round talent. The Flyers think he's gonna make a good 2-way d-man so again jack or all master of non may apply but saying that is selling him short IMO, he's a silky smooth skater with a wicked shot not unlike Ghost's one-timer. Maybe I'm just more confident in the Flyers scouting staff as well as the improvements he's gonna make playing on the top d pairing for MODO in the next year or two.

I think bottom line is I would probably be more comfortable with a better defensive defensemen with good size who is capable of putting up around 20 or so points a season (Morin and Hagg) compared to a undersized defensemen who needs to work on his play in his own zone who can put up 30+ points (Ghost). I think both formers help the team out more then the latter especially considering Streit will still be here and Gus will still be an RFA.

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Old
09-23-2013, 10:09 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I don't think I said Morin or Hagg will be playing in the NHL next year. All I said is that they would be competing for a job around the same time as Ghost, which I think is minimum two years. And you're not giving Morin enough credit. He's much more then just size, he's an excellent skater and while he may not have the offensive potential of Ghost he moves the puck very well. Similarly many consider Hagg to be a steal in the 2nd round cause some had him ranked as high as 25 (Flyers if I'm not mistaken). If the Flyers think he's a 1st round talent based on their scouting, conversations with Forsberg, Renberg and all that I wouldn't consider him a second round talent. The Flyers think he's gonna make a good 2-way d-man so again jack or all master of non may apply but saying that is selling him short IMO, he's a silky smooth skater with a wicked shot not unlike Ghost's one-timer. Maybe I'm just more confident in the Flyers scouting staff as well as the improvements he's gonna make playing on the top d pairing for MODO in the next year or two.

I think bottom line is I would probably be more comfortable with a better defensive defensemen with good size who is capable of putting up around 20 or so points a season (Morin and Hagg) compared to a undersized defensemen who needs to work on his play in his own zone who can put up 30+ points (Ghost). I think both formers help the team out more then the latter especially considering Streit will still be here and Gus will still be an RFA.
I'm done arguing Gus. I should have known what I was getting in to. I don't think he's as good as people around here think he is.

Maybe you didn't directly say Hagg would be competing next year, but I see a lot of people who seem to think he will. Like I said, history seems to say otherwise.

I'm not giving Morin enough credit? Go back and read the pre draft threads on this board. I was (one of) the only one in support of Morin. I even argued he had offensive upside when everyone just said he was a big shutdown guy. That said, he's not a guy that's going to run a PP. He's a guy you put on the right side, feed him pucks, and let him pound away. Gostisbehere is versatile enough to either QB or be a trigger man.

Yeah, yeah, the Flyers had Hagg ranked as a first rounder. I know that. Every team feels that way about their second round pick. That's why I used Voynov and Josi as examples. They were both in a very good draft and ended up being selected in the second. You could even argue if not for the Russian factor, Voynov would have been a first rounder. It still took him three full years and I would say he was more talented than Hagg at this point in their careers. Look, I like Hagg, I'm hoping for the best. I'm excited to see his development. The same way you think I'm overprojecting Gostisbehere, I think people are projecting Hagg in the lineup too soon.

You can shelter Gostisbehere's ES minutes if you think he's such a liability (which I think gets overblown). If Gus is really the best option we have, as you keep hypothetically saying, than I see no way Gostisbehere's not in that lineup in some form. There's no comparison between the two offensively.


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09-23-2013, 11:21 AM
  #35
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I'm done arguing Gus. I should have known what I was getting in to. I don't think he's as good as people around here think he is.
Great. I wasn't hyping him up by any means but sure.

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Maybe you didn't directly say Hagg would be competing next year, but I see a lot of people who seem to think he will. Like I said, history seems to say otherwise.
I didn't directly say it? I never even hinted at it so I don't even know what you're arguing with the history says otherwise comment.

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I'm not giving Morin enough credit? Go back and read the pre draft threads on this board. I was (one of) the only one in support of Morin. I even argued he had offensive upside when everyone just said he was a big shutdown guy. That said, he's not a guy that's going to run a PP. He's a guy you put on the right side, feed him pucks, and let him pound away. Gostisbehere is versatile enough to either QB or be a trigger man.
I don't know man I don't read all you're posts. I was responding to you saying "If you need to add size, Morin's going to be the guy" which yes is not giving him enough credit. As you mentioned the Flyers often run with 4 forwards so Morin could be that guy on the point just firing away not running things. You don't rush a kid like Ghost with so much potential cause you need some one to run a pp, forwards like G and Vinny can do that from the half boards.

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Yeah, yeah, the Flyers had Hagg ranked as a first rounder. I know that. Every team feels that way about their second round pick. That's why I used Voynov and Josi as examples. They were both in a very good draft and ended up being selected in the second. You could even argue if not for the Russian factor, Voynov would have been a first rounder. It still took him three full years and I would say he was more talented than Hagg at this point in their careers. Look, I like Hagg, I'm hoping for the best. I'm excited to see his development. The same way you think I'm overprojecting Gostisbehere, I think people are projecting Hagg in the lineup too soon.
Again I said in two years Hagg would be competing, that's too soon? Please don't put words in my mouth and say or imply that I'm talking next year here.

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You can shelter Gostisbehere's ES minutes if you think he's such a liability (which I think gets overblown). If Gus is really the best option we have, as you keep hypothetically saying, than I see no way Gostisbehere's not in that lineup in some form.
Let Ghost turn pro before we start talking about this. I mean for gods sake Gus is an AHL all-star with 95 pts in 145 games and had the better numbers while in the NCAA too. He's also only has 60 NHL games (13 points) over multiple years and isn't old by any stretch of the imagination, let him play a little before you start saying a college kid is the better player. He may project to be the better player but not for a few years.


Last edited by FlyersFan61290: 09-23-2013 at 08:30 PM. Reason: typo
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