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Old
09-22-2013, 11:49 AM
  #51
GRECOHAB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
This is a horrible deal for Vancouver.

We give up arguably the better goalie, albeit for one nine years his senior, but also lose our best scoring defenseman for essentially nothing in replacement utility. Gorges is a solid defensive defense, but inferior to what we already have and provides no offensive whatsoever, whilst Beaulieu is a prospect another year or two from even making the NHL. Moen, meanwhile, is useless.

And insult to injury. We give up Kassian for literally nothing.

On the flipside, the only reason Montreal might not consider doing this is the difference of age between Price and Luongo. Even that may not be enough of a deterrent, seeing they receive an pseudo-number defenseman one on the cusp of a breakout and a budding powerforward.

Edler - Subban
Markov - Diaz
Tinordi - Emelin

Hamhuis - Garrison
Gorges - Bieksa
Beaulieu - Tanev

As a Habs fan, I love it. As a Canucks fan? Not so much.
You have a solid point of view, though, i still think this is a decent trade for both teams. I should have spend more time breaking down the trade, so i can make a case out of my theory.

Luongo is a goalie almost past his prime that saw the window of ultimate success close hard on him the last two years. A change of scenery was the obvious move, but we all saw what happened at Newark's draft floor. Sticking with Lou doesn't make him a better goalie, but we should all realize where he stands. He is a good experienced goalie that bends under pressure, and with a very bad contract.

Price is maybe the goalie with the most potential in the league. Why is he underperforming is something the experts should answer, but i feel that if there is success in Price's carreer, it will be far from Montreal. Although he is above 1M more expensive than Lou, his contract looks better, especially in the future.

Value wise if both Luongo and Price were available for a trade i bet no team would be calling Vancouver for Luongo, while Montreal would receive offers from various clubs. You do realize that another mediocre year for both of them will eliminate any trade value they have at the market. Thats why i suggest the goalie swap (maybe returning to the roots would benefit them both), but its obvious that VAN has to add.

Beaulieu is a top prospect. Offensive defensemen with size that can contribute at the score sheet and is a year or two from making an NHL inpact. Kassian is a power forward that has the tools, but i am not so sure that he has the toolbox. Not producing enough for a top-6 role, but very good for a bottom -6 role. He has a two year NHL experience but during this time you cant discribe him as dominant.

So breaking down this trade so far its

Price+Beaulieu for Luongo+Kassian

Edler is a top producing defensemen, but VAN hasn't been able to benefit from it. I always thought that the case in Vancouver wasn't about scoring, but avoiding being scored on. Gorges would be ideal for Vancouver. Hart and soul player, that blocks shots, and excell at the PK. Value wise MTL has to add thats why i suggested Moen breaking in the trade, to help the controvercial bottom lines in Vancouver and even up the salary

Gorges+Moen for Edler

So, as i said, i think its a decent trade for both teams, and i dont think that its that bad for Vancouver...

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Old
09-22-2013, 01:56 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRECOHAB View Post
You have a solid point of view, though, i still think this is a decent trade for both teams. I should have spend more time breaking down the trade, so i can make a case out of my theory.

Luongo is a goalie almost past his prime that saw the window of ultimate success close hard on him the last two years. A change of scenery was the obvious move, but we all saw what happened at Newark's draft floor. Sticking with Lou doesn't make him a better goalie, but we should all realize where he stands. He is a good experienced goalie that bends under pressure, and with a very bad contract.

Price is maybe the goalie with the most potential in the league. Why is he underperforming is something the experts should answer, but i feel that if there is success in Price's carreer, it will be far from Montreal. Although he is above 1M more expensive than Lou, his contract looks better, especially in the future.

Value wise if both Luongo and Price were available for a trade i bet no team would be calling Vancouver for Luongo, while Montreal would receive offers from various clubs. You do realize that another mediocre year for both of them will eliminate any trade value they have at the market. Thats why i suggest the goalie swap (maybe returning to the roots would benefit them both), but its obvious that VAN has to add.

Beaulieu is a top prospect. Offensive defensemen with size that can contribute at the score sheet and is a year or two from making an NHL inpact. Kassian is a power forward that has the tools, but i am not so sure that he has the toolbox. Not producing enough for a top-6 role, but very good for a bottom -6 role. He has a two year NHL experience but during this time you cant discribe him as dominant.

So breaking down this trade so far its

Price+Beaulieu for Luongo+Kassian

Edler is a top producing defensemen, but VAN hasn't been able to benefit from it. I always thought that the case in Vancouver wasn't about scoring, but avoiding being scored on. Gorges would be ideal for Vancouver. Hart and soul player, that blocks shots, and excell at the PK. Value wise MTL has to add thats why i suggested Moen breaking in the trade, to help the controvercial bottom lines in Vancouver and even up the salary

Gorges+Moen for Edler

So, as i said, i think its a decent trade for both teams, and i dont think that its that bad for Vancouver...
A change of scenery only crept into the equation due to the emergence of Schneider. It had nothing to do with our failure to win the cup. And I never said that it did. Luongo's performance up to this point do, with his statistics only corroborating that claim. Price may have the potential of a franchise goalie, but despite flashes of brilliance, he has yet to demonstrate the consistency to maintain that level, whereas Luongo has. Where Lu stands is to win games, whether for the Vancouver Canucks or whomever.

The theory Price would benefit outside the pressures of Montreal is not without merit, although you severely underestimate how merciless Vancouver is on goaltenders. Regardless, I am aware of their respective values - no one will argue Luongo has any. The issue is with the trade is the secondary pieces.

We are not a rebuilding club. Beaulieu is of little use to a team intending to "win now." Furthermore, our need to scoring upfront, preferably from gritty wingers, i.e. a powerforward. Conversely, we have a solid blueline as in and need no additions. This trade essentially subtracts from a weakness and offers nothing else; Beaulieu is a substantial drop from Edler.

Speaking of whom, is notably more valuable than Gorges. Your breakdown ironically favors Vancouver initially, but the second is completely lopsided in Montreal's favor. Gorges is a second pairing defenseman on a good team, but inferior to Hamhuis and Garrison - not that it matters because he does not remotely remedy the loss of Edler.

And I reiterate, Moen is useless. We already have younger players itching to crack our fourth line and temporary fixtures in Santorelli and Richardson. We have no need of Moen, who has been terrible since signing that contract.

We actually allowed less goals than Montreal last season. Scoring them has been our problem.

No, it is not decent, as it does not address any of Vancouver's needs. We do not need a replacement for Luongo, otherwise we would have kept Schneider. Moreover, we are not going to trade Edler to accommodate that need should it arise down the road.

Simply put, if Edler is involved in any trade with Montreal, we would demand Gallagher or Pacioretty. A trade I would pass on as a Habs fan.

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Old
09-22-2013, 05:48 PM
  #53
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I am not opposed to Edler, but it has to be the right fit.

I am totally opposed to trading Hansen.

Plekanec is too expensive for the role he'd be playing here vs. our other options (top6 - Higgins, Hansen, Shinkaruk, Horvat, Jensen...bottom six C in Horvat, Gaunce, Schroeder, Santorelli, Richardson).

Gorges I'd be curious about, completely removing the rest of the trade. With retained salary, and Corrado (who's been great so far this preseason) in the minors, Gorges with Tanev and our top 4 would be lights out D under Torts.

However, salary concerns and the pieces being asked make no sense for Vancouver.

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Old
09-22-2013, 06:20 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRECOHAB View Post
I think that Montreal and Vancouver are good trade partners as they can trade some parts that can benefit both parts, short and long term. To evaluate this deal better we have to agree on the clubs current status.

GOALTENDING: Controvercial at best, for both parts it might be better for either club to part with the goalies they think are the No1. There has been alot of discussions of a goalie swap between VAN and MTL, and i think this actually might work, value wise though VAN has to add...

DEFENSE: Vancouver has a very reliable top-4 on paper but they obviously need something else to add, as they haven't had much success with the current formation. Montreal, although deep on D, they dont have a clear top-2 D to play along Subban as the RD first D pairing.

OFFENSE: Montreal has many scoring options, skills and talent but they lack size. Also they do have a plethora of very good bottom - 6 players, at the same time that Vancouver cant really rely on the bottom lines for some scoring and point contributing.

SALARY CAP: Montreal has 1,886 M to spend and Vancouver has 2,247M left to spend.

PROSPECTS: Montreal has a better prospect pool than Vancouver and as the matter of fact Vancouver is quite shallow at quality defensive prospects.


So here is my idea of the massive trade between the two teams:

Luongo, Edler, Kassian (VAN) with 11,2M in cap space involved
for
Price, Gorges, Moen, Beaulieu (MTL) with 12,2M in cap space involved

VANCOUVER LINE UP

Price-Lack

D.Sedin-H.Sedin-Burrows
Higgins-Kesler-Hansen
Booth-Schroeder-Richardson
Moen-Weiss-Sestito
ex.Horvat,Shinkaruk

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Garrison-Gorges
Tanev-Corrado
ex.Alberts,Weber

MONTREAL LINE UP

Luongo-Budaj

Pacioretty-Desharnais-Gallagher
Bourque-Plekanec-Briere
Galchenuyk-Eller-Kassian
Prust-Bournival-White
ex.Gionta (LTIR), Parros, Leblanc

Edler-Subban
Markov-Tinordi
Murray-Diaz
ex.Bouillion, Pateryn, Drewiskie
There is absolutely no way we do this.

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Old
09-22-2013, 06:22 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRECOHAB View Post
Gorges+Moen for Edler
Gorges + Moen for Edler is freaking horrible...

Counter: Price + Pacioretty for Luongo + Edler.

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Old
09-23-2013, 04:04 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
Gorges + Moen for Edler is freaking horrible...

Counter: Price + Pacioretty for Luongo + Edler.
Get it through your head there is no way you can dump Luongo let alone trade him for a younger goalie.Lu is going to drown this season playing for you guys.He wants out badly and his new born hatred for the management is just going to kill his and the Nucks season.Lu has shown us how it's going to be this season in his pregames.Going to be a long season for you guys.
And no Patches for you.

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Old
09-23-2013, 05:00 PM
  #57
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Luongo will be better than price this year. Book it.

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09-23-2013, 06:49 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by rypper View Post
Luongo will be better than price this year. Book it.
Considering Price has never had a better season than Luongo you're probably going to be right.

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Old
09-23-2013, 08:24 PM
  #59
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Get it through your head there is no way you can dump Luongo let alone trade him for a younger goalie.Lu is going to drown this season playing for you guys.He wants out badly and his new born hatred for the management is just going to kill his and the Nucks season.Lu has shown us how it's going to be this season in his pregames.Going to be a long season for you guys.
And no Patches for you.
Not going to lie, this post made me laugh.

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09-23-2013, 08:34 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
Gorges + Moen for Edler is freaking horrible...

Counter: Price + Pacioretty for Luongo + Edler.
Counter-Counter: Gorges + Moen + Gallagher for Hamhuis and Habs retain $1MM/yr to even out the cap hits

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Old
09-23-2013, 08:37 PM
  #61
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Counter-Counter: Gorges + Moen + Gallagher for Hamhuis and Habs retain $1MM/yr to even out the cap hits
Counter-counter-counter: Kassian for Galchenyuk.

But in reality, Edler would only be traded if a bonafide, proven top 6 winger comes back. Hansen won't be traded unless he's made it clear that he's not re-signing or for an overpayment.

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09-23-2013, 09:06 PM
  #62
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Counter-counter-counter: Kassian for Galchenyuk.

But in reality, Edler would only be traded if a bonafide, proven top 6 winger comes back. Hansen won't be traded unless he's made it clear that he's not re-signing or for an overpayment.
The only GM that would pull off a trade that lopsided involving Kassian is on the wrong end of that one

Or maybe if Gainey was still at the helm he'd throw in Tinordi to sweeten the deal

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Old
09-23-2013, 09:34 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
Not going to lie, this post made me laugh.
Maybe you should think about getting a waterproof (or tearproof) keyboard. This upcoming season is going to stress you out, me thinks. And watching people like you implode makes it all worthwhile.

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Old
09-24-2013, 01:09 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Maybe Eller + Tinordi + 1st for Edler

Edler is a pretty valuable piece signed long-term on a great deal.

For the record, I would do Tanev + Gaunce/Jessen + 1st for Plekanec @ 70%. (Figure the VAN package is worth less than MTL's while Pleks is also worth less than Edler).

Are you being sarcastic?

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09-24-2013, 01:19 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Maybe you should think about getting a waterproof (or tearproof) keyboard. This upcoming season is going to stress you out, me thinks. And watching people like you implode makes it all worthwhile.
One admires confidence, even when it's so incredibly off base.

Luongo is going to rip it up this season and Edler is going to prove himself to be more than capable of carrying a top pairing. There's ample reasons/evidence to believe this will be the case while conversely, detractors such as yourself are just hoping things will fail for the Canucks.

Personally, I think Price will also have a solid season. He too has a lot to play for.

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Old
09-24-2013, 01:21 AM
  #66
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Luongo will be better than price this year. Book it.
Don't think that's a bold statement.

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Old
09-24-2013, 01:40 AM
  #67
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Are you being sarcastic?
Bobby Ryan got Jakob Silfverberg, Stefan Noesen and a first. So the comparison is there.

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Old
09-24-2013, 04:48 AM
  #68
Lord Flacko*
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Maybe you should think about getting a waterproof (or tearproof) keyboard. This upcoming season is going to stress you out, me thinks. And watching people like you implode makes it all worthwhile.
Lmfao yeah, ok.

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