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Should he stay or should he go? (Meszaros or Grossmann)

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Old
09-23-2013, 02:22 PM
  #26
FlyersFanz
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$4+mil a year for Mez? He's gone.

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09-23-2013, 02:23 PM
  #27
Curufinwe
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Gone to where?

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09-23-2013, 02:25 PM
  #28
Jtown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Disagree with basically all of that. Grossmann is far better than Lauridsen and Alt. Yes, they are cheaper options, but they are also worse options. There will always be cheaper options. As far as having ELCs and vet minimums on the third pairing...you ice the best team, not the best contracts. Grossmann on the bottom pair is a good thing, even if his contract is higher than an ELC.
icing the best contracts ices the best team.

I like grossman , and he is better than laurdisen and alt. But is that 2.5 mill difference in salary equal to the difference in performance? Especially for the 3rd line? If you can afford it keep a guy like grossman but if you cant i have no problem with going with a cheap contract and a younger guy.

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09-23-2013, 02:28 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Heisenbergg View Post
I'm in the minority that I'd rather see a healthy Mesz in the lineup over Gustafsson anyday...
This has been the problem with him over the past 2 years.

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09-23-2013, 02:31 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Gone to where?
To any team that will take him in trade, there will be a team that needs a veteran D man.

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09-23-2013, 02:59 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
icing the best contracts ices the best team.
No, it doesn't. I'm not sure what world that would be true, but as long as the team fits under the cap, the contracts are irrelevant. Having good contracts helps, of course, but having good players is better than having good contracts.

Quote:
I like grossman , and he is better than laurdisen and alt. But is that 2.5 mill difference in salary equal to the difference in performance? Especially for the 3rd line? If you can afford it keep a guy like grossman but if you cant i have no problem with going with a cheap contract and a younger guy.
I would say that it is. Where would you put that money? Have a higher paid second pairing? Then wouldn't that second pair be overpaid? Have a higher paid third line center? Wouldn't he then be overpaid? You want the best players out there. Grossmann on the third pair is going to be worlds better than Lauridsen or Alt out there. Yes, for a bottom pair guy his price tag is a little high, but I'd rather have a guy making too much money on the third pair, but playing at a high level, than have a guy making an "appropriate" amount of money but playing at a fringe NHL level like Lauridsen and Alt likely would do. Obviously, I'd prefer a guy on an ELC that can play like Grossmann (or better), but those guys don't grow on trees.

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09-23-2013, 03:35 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
To any team that will take him in trade, there will be a team that needs a veteran D man.
Carolina did, but they got Hainsey.

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09-23-2013, 04:11 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Carolina did, but they got Hainsey.
There is more than just Carolina that could use a guy like Mez. I know he has injury problems, but he's a low-risk high reward acquisition if it is for the cheap (which I imagine it would be). Yes, he is coming off an injury and overpaid ATM, but if they can get him for a song, I think there would be a lot of teams that would be interested. Or at least more than most people think. The guy isn't even 30 years old. Hell he isn't even 28.

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09-23-2013, 04:22 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
They don't need to move either one of them. Keep Grossmann in the lineup and platoon Mez and Gus. Depending on where we are in the standings come the trade deadline and if Mez stays healthy at the deadline, maybe you can flip him for a pick then.
I would platoon all three of Gus, Mes and Gross. Keep them fresh. Let Grossmann rest his melon in back to backs. Then if someone breaks a bone in their foot blocking a shot, they could sit out too. Just sayin'...

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09-23-2013, 06:19 PM
  #35
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I don't think Gus is very good at all and neither is the "great Dane" I prefer mezzy

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09-23-2013, 07:24 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
There is more than just Carolina that could use a guy like Mez. I know he has injury problems, but he's a low-risk high reward acquisition if it is for the cheap (which I imagine it would be). Yes, he is coming off an injury and overpaid ATM, but if they can get him for a song, I think there would be a lot of teams that would be interested. Or at least more than most people think. The guy isn't even 30 years old. Hell he isn't even 28.
There is a risk though for other teams when it comes to Mez, for teams that operate towards the cap they're dedicating $4M to a guy who hasn't played much hockey in the last two years & to teams with an internal budget paying him $5M in actual salary for the same reasons.

There is a risk in taking on Mez & I wouldn't call it low, moderate would probably be the more appropriate word. If it was such a low risk the Flyers would be trying to keep him.

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09-23-2013, 08:07 PM
  #37
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If Colorado isn't interested in Meszaros then I can't think of any other likely trading partners.

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09-23-2013, 09:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
No, they are on ELC.
that has nothing to do with it. Games played does

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09-24-2013, 01:01 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
that has nothing to do with it. Games played does
True. Couturier is exempt and Schenn is not. (age 20 exempt is 160 games, age 22 exempt is 70).

Still doesn't change anything because Raffl is waiver exempt.

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Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Vincent Lecavalier ($4.500m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Scott Laughton ($1.107m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m) / Adam Hall ($0.600m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m)
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Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Mark Streit ($5.250m)
Chris Pronger ($4.941m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m) / Erik Gustafsson ($1.000m)
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Last edited by BillDineen: 09-24-2013 at 01:06 AM.
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09-24-2013, 01:29 AM
  #40
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Holmgren has been burnt before.
He has said numerous times that he thinks you need 8 healthy defensemen going into the season.

And knowing our luck at least 1 of our D corps will miss significant time at some point.
Why trade Mesz now for a bag of pucks only to spend multiple picks at the trade dealine to acquire another Pavel Kubina type of stop gap?

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09-24-2013, 01:43 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
right now we have the most expensive defense in the league and to me that seems weird.

I think mez and Grossman are both expendable at this point. Mez is gone next year regardless, Grossman i like but for the money he is making it is hard to justify him as a 3rd pairing defender especially when we have cheap options in the next year or two in Lauridsen and Alt.

I've always felt that your 3rd pairing and 4th line needs to be made up or elc contracts or veteran minimum's
Krajicek - Parent

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09-24-2013, 05:33 AM
  #42
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The reason that people would prefer to move Meszaros, $4m cap hit $5.5m salary, is the same reason other teams won't want him or at least might try to get Grossmann or even Coburn or Schenn instead.

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09-24-2013, 06:18 AM
  #43
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I understand it's a big if, but IF Mez is healthy he is one of our better dmen

He is better than Grossmann

Gus is also better than Grossmann

If someone HAD to go I'd say Grossmann

But I personally don't see the point in moving any of them. We all know someone is going to get hurt, why not have a capable guy waiting to replace him? --it's not like we need to add any talent up front -- and no one is going to give us a better dman than we already have -- trade makes no sense --might as well keep them all for now

Lauridsen is not an nhl player imo - he's not smart enough - he's only here bc he's 6'6 -if you're that big, you're going to get a look --he got his --lets move on now

Gill/Gervais ---I'd rather not see them play anymore...at least not in orange

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09-24-2013, 06:32 AM
  #44
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Grossmann is da man. Before he was injured, he played fantastic. Grossmann and Simmonds were my 2 favorite players on the team last season. I would be very unhappy if Grossmann were traded. And, I do not think it will happen, personally.

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09-24-2013, 08:53 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
There is a risk though for other teams when it comes to Mez, for teams that operate towards the cap they're dedicating $4M to a guy who hasn't played much hockey in the last two years & to teams with an internal budget paying him $5M in actual salary for the same reasons.

There is a risk in taking on Mez & I wouldn't call it low, moderate would probably be the more appropriate word. If it was such a low risk the Flyers would be trying to keep him.
We'll see. I think you and I have discussed this same wrinkle before so let's spare each other the back and forth and just agree to disagree. Haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
If Colorado isn't interested in Meszaros then I can't think of any other likely trading partners.
You don't have to be down a defenseman to want to upgrade. I'm sure there are a number of teams out there that would like an upgrade to their defense. Just look at a team like the Sabres. They have the cap room and the bottom half of their defense is nothing to write home about. Now, I don't know what they are looking to do, but if they have the space, a team like Buffalo might take a shot for a mid-round pick to have a nice upgrade on the blueline. It gives them a shot to better their defense and see how Mez does. If he plays well and stays healthy, then they can re-sign him and let Tallinder walk if they so choose and maybe Risto or Zad will be up the following year.

It doesn't actually have to be a team that has five defenseman and needs a sixth to make a trade. Teams are always looking to upgrade.

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09-24-2013, 10:24 AM
  #46
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I don't get why people are so willing to throw Meszaros under a bus. Yes, he's had two injury plagued seasons, but they were freak injuries. I'll say it before and I'll say it again - he was cleared way to early from his back surgery. David Bolland had the exact same surgery as Meszaros and he missed 19 weeks of the regular season. Meszaros missed 8 weeks. He might have been physically ok, but he was not in game shape and I really think that had a negative effect.

His Achilles tear was also a freak injury. Once again, an Achilles injury usually takes a significant amount of time to heal from. He healed up relatively quickly and then the shoulder injuries hit.

The best thing that ever happened to Meszaros was the Flyers missing the play offs. He got to heal up and he's ready to go.

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09-24-2013, 10:45 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I don't get why people are so willing to throw Meszaros under a bus. Yes, he's had two injury plagued seasons, but they were freak injuries. I'll say it before and I'll say it again - he was cleared way to early from his back surgery. David Bolland had the exact same surgery as Meszaros and he missed 19 weeks of the regular season. Meszaros missed 8 weeks. He might have been physically ok, but he was not in game shape and I really think that had a negative effect.

His Achilles tear was also a freak injury. Once again, an Achilles injury usually takes a significant amount of time to heal from. He healed up relatively quickly and then the shoulder injuries hit.

The best thing that ever happened to Meszaros was the Flyers missing the play offs. He got to heal up and he's ready to go.
For me it is not throwing him under the bus. If he's healthy and in Philly, he should be in the lineup not the pressbox. That being said, if someone wants to trade for him, I'd do it. It is pretty clear he won't be back next year; if he sucks, he won't be asked back, if he plays well, he'll probably want more money, plus we have a number of young defenders that may be NHL ready next season. It just makes the most sense to deal him instead of a Grossmann or Gus. If he is dealt, you look at a lineup next year potentially of:

Streit-Schenn
Coburn-Morin
Grossmann-Gus

or, if Timonen comes back again...

Streit-Schenn
Coburn-Grossmann/Morin
Timonen-Gus/Morin/Grossmann

That leaves more money to play around with for extensions to whomever needs one (Schenn?) or UFAs.

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09-24-2013, 11:19 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
No, it doesn't. I'm not sure what world that would be true, but as long as the team fits under the cap, the contracts are irrelevant. Having good contracts helps, of course, but having good players is better than having good contracts.



I would say that it is. Where would you put that money? Have a higher paid second pairing? Then wouldn't that second pair be overpaid? Have a higher paid third line center? Wouldn't he then be overpaid? You want the best players out there. Grossmann on the third pair is going to be worlds better than Lauridsen or Alt out there. Yes, for a bottom pair guy his price tag is a little high, but I'd rather have a guy making too much money on the third pair, but playing at a high level, than have a guy making an "appropriate" amount of money but playing at a fringe NHL level like Lauridsen and Alt likely would do. Obviously, I'd prefer a guy on an ELC that can play like Grossmann (or better), but those guys don't grow on trees.
AGREE 100%.

People are hung up on slotting salaries more so then icing the best team. When Alt and Laurisden get to the point that they are giving you competitive minutes then you can move Grossman and play them on the third pairing. I personally don't think Laurisden will ever be a full time dman on a winnign team. YES, Grossman is 2.5MM better then Alt or Laurisden. Until you can depend on either to anchor a PK or move up to the 2nd pairing for matchups then Grossmann is 2.5 better.

If you play either now over Grossmann the Flyers will spend every game trying to hide them from match ups. At some point Grossmann's production will come down and the young's production will go up and that's when you replace Grossmann's salary.

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Old
09-24-2013, 11:34 AM
  #49
dingbathero
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In case you weren't aware the Flyers D is BELOW NHL average (according to Frank S):

12:32
Comment From -ding
Who plays on the 3rd line LW with Coots-Read? You also mentioned the D was the biggest concern for you, which doesn't make sense b/c now the Flyers have puck moving D men and are a healthy bunch to start the year, no?
12:32
Frank Seravalli: They are definitely improved with Streit, in terms of puck-moving, but still probably below NHL average as a whole.

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09-24-2013, 12:32 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I don't get why people are so willing to throw Meszaros under a bus. Yes, he's had two injury plagued seasons, but they were freak injuries. I'll say it before and I'll say it again - he was cleared way to early from his back surgery. David Bolland had the exact same surgery as Meszaros and he missed 19 weeks of the regular season. Meszaros missed 8 weeks. He might have been physically ok, but he was not in game shape and I really think that had a negative effect.

His Achilles tear was also a freak injury. Once again, an Achilles injury usually takes a significant amount of time to heal from. He healed up relatively quickly and then the shoulder injuries hit.

The best thing that ever happened to Meszaros was the Flyers missing the play offs. He got to heal up and he's ready to go.
Because he makes $4mil a year...too much in my books for a defenseman that plays 20 games a year

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