HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Mike Babcock -- Bull **** Artist

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-24-2013, 11:09 AM
  #176
Henkka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 9,756
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
I don't think the situation was over JUST money. I seem to remember some grumblings from Hudler over ice time and being benched.

There may have been some things going on behind the scenes. I don't think he had the greatest relationship with the Wings while he was here.
There was salary negotiations and Hudler was filing to arbitrator. Holland also wanted that case done, before he leaves in KHL. Then the arbitrator gave that 2.875 caphit contract and Wings choose it as a 2-year deal. It would take in effect if Hudler ever comes back.

Henkka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 11:16 AM
  #177
bababooeyII
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 561
vCash: 500
You guys are missing the point, who cares if it won't "hurt" Nyquist to be sent down, who cares if Nyquist is ok with it or not, the point is simple, he should NOT be sent down he belongs here. Brendan Smith and Jakub Kindl's play both regressed when they were left to "over ripen" in Grand Rapids, so I am not on board with it not having some affect on their play. The Wings claim that the best players win jobs and get the icetime, but by sending down one of your best players and best prospects who have consistently outplayed the re-treads you re-signed, that contradicts your message. The only message I see consistently from Wings brass is that you will not be playing with the Wings until you are out of eligibility and are waiver eligible, that is the only way you get taken seriously. Other teams, like say Chicago, have given huge roles to guys like Saad, Pirri, Leddy and they seemed to have done ok. And on the flipside, in last years playoffs the team that brought Chicago to the brink was lead mostly by the younger players. Nyquist, Tatar, Dekeyser have all done enough to prove they belong, it is time for some veterans to feel the heat and have to fight for their jobs.


Last edited by bababooeyII: 09-24-2013 at 11:31 AM.
bababooeyII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 11:43 AM
  #178
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 27,843
vCash: 500
The argument wasn't about whether they deserved it or not. A poster specifically made mention of how players wouldn't be interested in coming here because of management, which I contested.

ArGarBarGar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 11:49 AM
  #179
bababooeyII
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
The argument wasn't about whether they deserved it or not. A poster specifically made mention of how players wouldn't be interested in coming here because of management, which I contested.
In spite of all the hoopla to the contrary, I don't see free agents clamoring to come here either unless they're already established and the Wings are willing to pay market value. Dekeyser could have gone anywhere, and it was known that the Wings were always in the front of the pack, but even still the Wings brass had to guarantee that Dekeyser would play on the Red Wings, not Grand Rapids. So make no mistake about it, ice time and role is important. If other players see you jerking your prospects around forever in favor of Samuelsson or Cleary, then when the next Justin Schultz becomes available do you think he'll consider Detroit? I don't, even if he does do you think his agent will? Not me

bababooeyII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 01:14 PM
  #180
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 27,843
vCash: 500
That is pure speculation at best. Players don't "shy" away from Detroit because of how they treat young players, they "shy" away because we are no longer a dynasty.

I also don't think we are ignored as a free agent destination, either.


Last edited by ArGarBarGar: 09-24-2013 at 01:19 PM.
ArGarBarGar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 01:27 PM
  #181
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Yeah, I was also 100% sure about Nyquist, when we had that false information here that Nyquist has also lost his waiver-eligibility. But since he is still free, they are going to use that option if necessary.

I'm not against that idea as long as Nyquist has place to play. It's not the end of the world like it looks to be many in this board. He isn't going get benched anywhere. He will play and develop. ~10 games at minors doesn't really matter a thing on his long-term development.

This reminds me of the case when Filppula got demoted, played 4 games down and Babcock was furious about it. Then Holland waived Brad Norton, Val was promoted again and he never looked back.



Yeah, waiver eligibility is THE THING. Last season Tatar was was demoted, because we could do it.

But it was injuries in NHL side affected a lot about that Griffins 1st line, who was called up and who not. If Helm and Bertuzzi would have been healthy, Andersson would never see games up. But they needed a center and a big guy. Andersson had these in same package, great. If there would have been different injuries, the story could be different. Nyquist and Tatar up, Andersson sees the whole season at Griffins. It just went that way.

This season we can't waive Tatar, so he's gonna play. He is not gonna sit on the bench, what people are debating here. "Washed up vets are gonna play instead of kids" -********.

I'm gonna give you guys a healthy scratch tracking at next season to give some statistical prove about this plan, how the vets will rotate and kids will play.
I don't understand your logic Henkka.
So -- Tatar played good enough in the NHL -- but was sent down because he was waiver eligible.
But now that he's not waiver eligible, he's going to play?

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 01:31 PM
  #182
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Who has it hurt so far?
What do you suppose Smith's contract would be like if he had 2 years of NHL experience under his belt instead of 1?
How about Nyquist?

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 01:49 PM
  #183
bababooeyII
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
That is pure speculation at best. Players don't "shy" away from Detroit because of how they treat young players, they "shy" away because we are no longer a dynasty.

I also don't think we are ignored as a free agent destination, either.
No one said we're "ignored" just not preferred anymore. Anyone who has cap space is not ignored, I just don't think we're ta preferred destination anymore unless we pay market prices or we're attracting Swedes.

bababooeyII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 01:59 PM
  #184
Henkka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 9,756
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I don't understand your logic Henkka.
So -- Tatar played good enough in the NHL -- but was sent down because he was waiver eligible.
But now that he's not waiver eligible, he's going to play?
And I don't understand what are you questioning...?

They send him down for Nyquist. There was roster room for one skilled smallish winger, not for two. Clear and simple. Brunner was at Tatar's spot. They maybe wanted to add a playmaker on that 3rd line instead of two snipers.

The point is, Tatar had a place to play and develop through play, in NHL or AHL.

It could have been done other ways, keeping Tatar up and keeping Nyquist down the rest of the season. In my mind, these guys are equal. They preferred to give that ~20 games for both. It doesn't really change anything in the big picture. They will be future particles in the team.

Henkka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 02:17 PM
  #185
Guru Meditation
Service Unavailable
 
Guru Meditation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bababooeyII View Post
Brendan Smith and Jakub Kindl's play both regressed when they were left to "over ripen" in Grand Rapids
I'm not sure this ever happened. In both cases, they were just really small sample sizes. Kindl nearly made the Wings, but then he went back and had kind of a mediocre season. Same with Smith. I see no reason to believe that their ability to play high quality hockey jumps around according to the circumstances like some kind of mexican jumping bean. Bottom line, both of them overachieved for short periods of time and then regressed to the mean.

Guru Meditation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 02:24 PM
  #186
Heaton
Moderator
#hope
 
Heaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rochester, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 17,442
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Heaton
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
What do you suppose Smith's contract would be like if he had 2 years of NHL experience under his belt instead of 1?
How about Nyquist?
No idea, but it's not the organization's job to make sure players should make a ton of money as fast as they can.

Since I know your followup, no, I don't think they should've played in the AHL that long.

Heaton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 02:24 PM
  #187
SoupNazi
Global Moderator
No Soup for You!!!
 
SoupNazi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kramerica Industries
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,482
vCash: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
What do you suppose Smith's contract would be like if he had 2 years of NHL experience under his belt instead of 1?
How about Nyquist?
How can you possibly know? Smith might never become anything more than he is right now.

SoupNazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 02:38 PM
  #188
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
No idea, but it's not the organization's job to make sure players should make a ton of money as fast as they can.

Since I know your followup, no, I don't think they should've played in the AHL that long.
My point doesn't speak to the organization's job -- but about what the Red Wings' development system costs the players.
Even if you don't believe the organization harms players with slow development -- it's pretty obvious the team harms a player's income earning ability.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 02:40 PM
  #189
Heaton
Moderator
#hope
 
Heaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rochester, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 17,442
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Heaton
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
My point doesn't speak to the organization's job -- but about what the Red Wings' development system costs the players.
Even if you don't believe the organization harms players with slow development -- it's pretty obvious the team harms a player's income earning ability.
I think that's probably true, but the Wings have pretty much always taken care of their players. And considering how many draft picks the Wings have on their roster every given season I'd say the players generally can't be that unhappy with the arrangement.

Heaton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 02:42 PM
  #190
Guru Meditation
Service Unavailable
 
Guru Meditation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
My point doesn't speak to the organization's job -- but about what the Red Wings' development system costs the players.
Even if you don't believe the organization harms players with slow development -- it's pretty obvious the team harms a player's income earning ability.
It goes both ways. Yes, the prospects get shortchanged a bit. But they also see Cleary and Bertuzzi and think they're going to get taken care of when they're older. If anything, the Wings organization is putting out the message that if players are loyal to them when they're young, the Wings will be loyal back when they're old.

I know you hate everything about that message, but I don't see it as nearly as toxic as you think.

Guru Meditation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 02:52 PM
  #191
Chance on Chance
Registered User
 
Chance on Chance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
It goes both ways. Yes, the prospects get shortchanged a bit. But they also see Cleary and Bertuzzi and think they're going to get taken care of when they're older. If anything, the Wings organization is putting out the message that if players are loyal to them when they're young, the Wings will be loyal back when they're old.

I know you hate everything about that message, but I don't see it as nearly as toxic as you think.
Thats not really playing to win in the salary cap era though

Chance on Chance is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 03:50 PM
  #192
bababooeyII
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
It goes both ways. Yes, the prospects get shortchanged a bit. But they also see Cleary and Bertuzzi and think they're going to get taken care of when they're older. If anything, the Wings organization is putting out the message that if players are loyal to them when they're young, the Wings will be loyal back when they're old.
I know you hate everything about that message, but I don't see it as nearly as toxic as you think.
You think a blue chip prospect, or any prospect for that matter, thinks that when they're 38 yrs old they'll have a retirement home, so take the demotions to Grand Rapids with a smile because, hey, when you're 38 yrs old and broken down you'll always have a spot in Detroit?

bababooeyII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2013, 07:38 PM
  #193
silkyjohnson50*
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 9,183
vCash: 500
I really want to enjoy this season, but it's not easy to start the season with the BS that Mike delivered. I've really been able to sit back and think about it today and it just pisses me off more and more...

Nyquist and Tatar make this team better, period. Both players came in last season and did just that. The team was better with them than without. They made the bottom 6 dangerous, something that the bottom 6 wasn't before their arrival. But regardless...

They look really good in most of the preseason and then the game vs. Pittsburgh occured. Pittsburgh basically iced their regular lineup and Detroit was without their top line and top defensive pair, among others. Mike uses this game as a reason to call out Nyquist and Tatar and claim that this proves that they aren't ready. That's just f'ing BS. First of all, Tatar and Nyquist aren't going to be regularly playing against the Malkin's of the NHL when Datsyuk and Zetterberg on playing. So that didn't prove anything. Nyquist and Tatar can individually be pieces to scoring lines, but it's the thought of them together with Andersson against opposing 3rd and 4th lines that just screams success. Much like they showed last season. But the thing that pisses me off the most is the fact that somehow that game vs Pittsburgh proved something while all of the terrible games by Cleary, Samuelsson, etc doesn't prove anything? It's a BS double standard. No consistency.

Then Mike comes out a day or two ago and states that "a tie goes to the veteran."
What tie Mike? Nothing but BS.

Tatar never had a shot. Mike took advantage of a Pittsburgh game to set things up his way because he's full of it.

There was never a real battle. Tatar was on the outside looking in the whole time. So much for fair competetion.

Ken's an idiot as well for bringing Cleary back. But even without Cleary, Tatar probably wouldn't be playing if Eaves or Tootoo were healthy enough to play.

But regardless thanks to these two the team being iced isn't the best team both for now and for the future. It's a lose/lose situation.

Thanks boys.

Now i'll try and enjoy the beginning of the season, but in the back of my mind how could this BS not be lingering.

silkyjohnson50* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2013, 07:53 PM
  #194
Zetterberg4Captain
Registered User
 
Zetterberg4Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,886
vCash: 500
what a difference when compared to how the Murray/Maclean feel about honouring your word..

"The GM and head coach Paul MacLean have been telling their prospects all camp that hard work would be rewarded. As Murray put it in a conference call on Monday afternoon, how do you keep players like Pageau and Da Costa off the team “if we’re going to be good on our word: that is work hard and you will get a chance.”

ottawa citizen

Zetterberg4Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2013, 08:01 PM
  #195
Johnz96*
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 982
vCash: 500
I think it's conclusive, he IS a ******** artist.
The Wings have a lot of older, worn down forwards who are (fortunately) injury prone. The young guys will get their chances and stick.
I'll be surprised if the Sammy, Bert, Cleary Trio get in a 100 games in total and you know that Franzen, Alfredsson, Datsyuk and Zetterberg will miss a bunch between them.

Johnz96* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.