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Old
09-24-2013, 01:54 PM
  #101
aidenkael
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I have no problem with these lines save PP2. I would like to see a sniper instead of Cleary because you already have Franzen on the other wing. I'll break down the other lines real quick

I like the top line because Abby is quickly developing into the poor mans Homer. My only question with line two is can Alfie not let age make him our new Modano. Line three is perfect, love the GR line. I like four, but I question if Sammy can still play. I'd rather see Miller.

Hopefully it works, but the season will let us know!

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09-24-2013, 02:01 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Datsyuk and Cleary, but who was Franzen playing with? I honestly don't remember.
In the playoffs he had Zed with them. I cant remember but looking at the rosters from 05-07 Jason Williams was probably our 3rd line center so maybe him

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09-24-2013, 02:02 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Datsyuk and Cleary, but who was Franzen playing with? I honestly don't remember.
Franzen - Dats - Abdelkader
Filppula - Zeta - Cleary
Nyquist - Andersson - Brunner

This is how it was mostly at the playoffs.

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09-24-2013, 02:02 PM
  #104
Heaton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Franzen - Dats - Abdelkader
Filppula - Zeta - Cleary
Nyquist - Andersson - Brunner

This is how it was mostly at the playoffs.
No, I mean in Franzen's first two years on the team, since that's what we were comparing.

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09-24-2013, 02:09 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Datsyuk and Cleary, but who was Franzen playing with? I honestly don't remember.
Franzen played with Flip, then Zetterberg, then Datsyuk, I think

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09-24-2013, 02:12 PM
  #106
Heaton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Franzen played with Flip, then Zetterberg, then Datsyuk, I think
Ah yes, the Hudler - Filppula - Franzen line, thanks.

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09-24-2013, 02:12 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
No, I mean in Franzen's first two years on the team, since that's what we were comparing.
I can't remember (dobber hockey only shows lineups from 2007-2008 to the present), but the massive difference in production between Gator and Franzen's first two years make it irrelevant in terms of trying to argue Gator is even remotely similar or as gifted offensively as Franzen.

They are two completely different players and Gator has never given fans or management any reason to believe he has a scoring touch.

Babcock is just obsessed with the idea that all world talent has to play with at least one crappy grinder. I really wish he would at least play good grinders.

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Old
09-24-2013, 02:15 PM
  #108
Henkka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
No, I mean in Franzen's first two years on the team, since that's what we were comparing.
2005-06:

4th line
Cleary - Franzen - Maltby

2006-07:
January: Maltby - Draper - Franzen
February: Calder - Lang - Franzen
March: Bertuzzi - Datsyuk - Franzen
April: Franzen - Datsyuk - Homer

During the season he climbed from the Bottom6 to Top6. But quite a suffle season for Mule.

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09-24-2013, 02:19 PM
  #109
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Oh... people think Abdelkader is going to be the next Franzen -- that's what this is about?

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09-24-2013, 02:20 PM
  #110
Heaton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Oh... people think Abdelkader is going to be the next Franzen -- that's what this is about?
The ole Freddie Modin debate rearing it's ugly head.

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09-24-2013, 02:24 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Oh... people think Abdelkader is going to be the next Franzen -- that's what this is about?
I think that is what a lot of Wings fans think. When I speak to fans outside of this forum and I explain how stupid it is to have such a crappy player on the top line, I routinely hear them mention Franzen. My friends say the same thing. It's completely wrong, but I have heard that excuse quite a few times as to why Gator is playing with Datsyuk.

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09-24-2013, 02:28 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
The ole Freddie Modin debate rearing it's ugly head.
Well go for it. Make the claim.

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Old
09-24-2013, 02:31 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I think that is what a lot of Wings fans think. When I speak to fans outside of this forum and I explain how stupid it is to have such a crappy player on the top line, I routinely hear them mention Franzen. My friends say the same thing. It's completely wrong, but I have heard that excuse quite a few times as to why Gator is playing with Datsyuk.
God I hope not.

It's slightly less infuriating to watch Abby giving it his all and failing than it is to watch Franzen go 75% all year. Nothing pisses me off more than wasted talent and potential. Part of the reason I despise the way the prospects have been treated for the past few years. So much wasted talent.

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09-24-2013, 02:31 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Well go for it. Make the claim.
Why would I? I don't want him or Bertuzzi on the 1st line in the first place.

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Old
09-24-2013, 02:32 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I think that is what a lot of Wings fans think. When I speak to fans outside of this forum and I explain how stupid it is to have such a crappy player on the top line, I routinely hear them mention Franzen. My friends say the same thing. It's completely wrong, but I have heard that excuse quite a few times as to why Gator is playing with Datsyuk.
I;ve already said I think Abby can score 20-25 goals with D-Z.
He scored at a 34 goal pace with Datsyuk and Franzen last year -- in the second half. Without PP time.
Granted -- there were a lot of fluke goals and all.

But that doesn't mean he's a good fit.

I think Eaves or Miller could score 20-25 goals. In fact, i'd take Eaves or Miller ahead of Abdelkader on such a lone. Miller is a better skater and smarter player. Eaves is smarter, has a better shot, and is righthanded.

The only forward on the Red Wings roster who is worse for Datsyuk-Zetterberg is probably Emmerton.

I'd even take Tootoo over Abdelkader. Tootoo doesn't have Abby's hands around the net...probably. But if you're a defenseman worried about a Tootoo hit while Datsyuk and Z is on the ice -- that's real anxiety right there.

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Old
09-24-2013, 02:38 PM
  #116
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now for all of you Cleary haters : Franzen is not a good at standing front off net, he is a finisher. It will be Cleary job . Cleary can take a lot of beating so does Aby . That is why we see Aby at first power and Cleary second units. the only problem I have it is Emmerton over Miller

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Old
09-24-2013, 02:41 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by lilidk View Post
now for all of you Cleary haters : Franzen is not a good at standing front off net, he is a finisher. It will be Cleary job . Cleary can take a lot of beating so does Aby . That is why we see Aby at first power and Cleary second units. the only problem I have it is Emmerton over Miller
Saying players are good at something doesn't make it true.

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Old
09-24-2013, 02:47 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Saying players are good at something doesn't make it true.
Claiming everyone is garbage at everything also doesn't make it true.

Except for in Cleary's case.

Franzen is actually pretty good in front of the net, scored a lot of goals that way in terms of the post you're responding to. I have no use for Cleary on the PP, really even though I defend the Abdelkader on the first line, I don't know that they need him out there on the PP. Would really like a movement 2nd PP, without a designated net front guy, kind of like what Renney ran in Edmonton with one of his units.

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09-24-2013, 02:53 PM
  #119
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Our PP goals so far at pre-season:

@Boston
Abdelkader scored, was in front of the net getting the rebound from Kindl-shot.
Zetterberg tip-in, Abdelkader made the screen for Kronwall-pointshot.

@Pittsburgh
Almquist scored from point, Abdelkader made the net-front screen.
Almquist scored from point, Cleary made the net-front screen.

vs.Chicago
Tatar tip-in, Andersson made the screen for Nyquist-shot.
Ericsson scored from point, both Andersson and Sheahan made the net-front screen. (not PP, but goalie pulled)

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Old
09-24-2013, 02:56 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Claiming everyone is garbage at everything also doesn't make it true.

Except for in Cleary's case.

Franzen is actually pretty good in front of the net, scored a lot of goals that way in terms of the post you're responding to. I have no use for Cleary on the PP, really even though I defend the Abdelkader on the first line, I don't know that they need him out there on the PP. Would really like a movement 2nd PP, without a designated net front guy, kind of like what Renney ran in Edmonton with one of his units.
Cleary is garbage at any role he plays on the team.

Gator is garbage as a first line winger. He is a mediocre 4th liner.

Gator problem can be somewhat fixed. Cleary problem can only be fixed by abducting him and sending him to North Korea.

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09-24-2013, 02:58 PM
  #121
Roy S
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
OK

Franzen had 46 points in his first two years in the league playing full time.

Gator has a career total of SIXTY points in 257 games.

Any way you want to slice it, Franzen has been producing at a far better rate than Gator ever has. Their career trajectories aren't even close. One is a fourth line grinder (Gator) and the other is a top six winger. (Franzen) albeit a very lazy one.
That's a flawed way to slice it, though, because you are comparing Franzen's two seasons when he was 26 and 27 to Abdelkader when he hasn't had his age 26 and 27 seasons yet. If you compare Franzen's first season at 26 to Abdelkader's season in 10-11 or 11-12 when they both had similar type of roles and ice time, then the fit becomes more clear- with Franzen having a slight edge in goals per game and Abdelkader having a slight edge in points per game. Prior to exploding on the scene, Franzen was a 3rd and 4th line grinder his first season at a pretty advanced age before unexpectedly taking off offensively. He also played center sparingly and on the PK; also two similarities to how Abdelkader started out.

I'm not saying Abdelkader will do what Franzen did- I don't think there is anyway he'll have even close to the same scoring touch; although I do think he could become a decent top 6 player rather than the top line player that Franzen turned into. But, you asked for an example and Franzen didn't begin to find a clear offensive touch until he was 27 or 28 so he is one example; although maybe not as good as the Burrows one.

[QUOTE]I really don't see the Burrows comparison either.[QUOTE]

I have absolutely no idea why not because he had far worse offensive numbers than Abdelkader has had at that time of his career. He had 9 total points in his age 25 season in 81 games as a 3rd/4th line grinder and then was elevated to top 6 roles right after that season and slowly morphed into a 25+ goal scorer playing with the Sedin's. You asked for an example of a 4th line grinder who started to find offense at age 26. If he's not seen as a useful example then I don't know what to say. He didn't officially come into his own until he was 27.


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Old
09-24-2013, 02:58 PM
  #122
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Babcock will never do it, but this would be my PP units.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Franzen
Kindl - Alfie

Kindl out high with a umbrella type setup. Franzen as the net front guy also has the ability to flash high for one times when they get below the line. This one would be more conventional but like swapping out Kronwall for Kindl for fit.

Nyquist - Weiss - Tatar
Kronwall - Smith

This one is the movement lineup, lots of interchanging, both Kronwall and Smith like to jump into the play. Weiss and Tatar while not big like to drive the net when openings are there. Throw Nyquist and Tatar below the goal like the RNH and Eberle setup of a couple years back with Renney. They could do this system and the onus of checking all five guys that all skate well and can activate catching you in a stand still in a box would be dangerous. Also it gets away from the traditional PP. I think that wrinkle would be tough on other teams, it isn't just the Wings that have gotten into the boring system on the PP, everyone has. This is outside of the box and will stress other teams, could also lead to some SH goals against but I think the balance and different looks of both units will be extremely hard on most teams.

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09-24-2013, 03:00 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Our PP goals so far at pre-season:

@Boston
Abdelkader scored, was in front of the net getting the rebound from Kindl-shot.
Zetterberg tip-in, Abdelkader made the screen for Kronwall-pointshot.

@Pittsburgh
Almquist scored from point, Abdelkader made the net-front screen.
Almquist scored from point, Cleary made the net-front screen.

vs.Chicago
Tatar tip-in, Andersson made the screen for Nyquist-shot.
Ericsson scored from point, both Andersson and Sheahan made the net-front screen. (not PP, but goalie pulled)
Yeah if the job is to anchor in front of the goal I prefer both Sheahan and Andersson at this point in time. Sheahan is likely in the minors, but if that is going to be Cleary's job on the second unit I would prefer Andersson, he is bigger and better at it.

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09-24-2013, 03:03 PM
  #124
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Everybody should compare Abdelkader to Holmström's career start if you want to compare him somebody.

I wonder what kind of debate there would have been at 90's HF Boards, how Scotty was a pure lunatic and has lost his mind when using that slow-fat ass on the PP or with Yzerman at even strength.

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09-24-2013, 03:05 PM
  #125
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[QUOTE=Roy S;71511629]That's a flawed way to slice it, though, because you are comparing Franzen's two seasons when he was 26 and 27 to Abdelkader when he hasn't had his age 26 and 27 seasons yet. If you compare Franzen's first season at 26 to Abdelkader's season in 10-11 or 11-12, then the fit becomes more clear. Prior to exploding on the scene, Franzen was a 3rd and 4th line grinder his first season at a pretty advanced age before unexpectedly taking off offensively.

I'm not saying Abdelkader will do what Franzen did. But, you asked for an example and Franzen didn't begin to find a clear offensive touch until he was 27 or 28 so he is one example; although maybe not as good as the Burrows one.

[QUOTE]I really don't see the Burrows comparison either.
Quote:

I have absolutely no idea why not because he had far worse offensive numbers than Abdelkader has had at that time of his career. He had 9 total points in his age 25 season in 81 games as a 3rd/4th line grinder and then was elevated to top 6 roles right after that season and slowly morphed into a 25+ goal scorer playing with the Sedin's. You asked for an example of a 4th line grinder who started to find offense at age 26. If he's not seen as a useful example then I don't know what to say.
You can spin it however you want.

60 points in 257 games. His best offensive season in his entire career was in high school.

Franzen routinely puts up #'s in a single season that are almost more than Gator's entire career.

Franzen has an amazing shot. Quick and accurate release.

Gator does not.

Franzen earned his ice time early on in his career.

Gator has not.

One is a 4th line grinder.

The other is a top six winger.

This isn't even debatable. There is zero evidence to suggest Gator is half as offensively gifted as Franzen.

Henkaa is right, Homer is the best player to compare Gator to and Homer was 10x the player Gator ever will be.

Wings are attempting to keep a system in place but using inferior players to keep the system going. Eventually the system falls apart when you have too many inferior players running the system.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 09-24-2013 at 03:15 PM.
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