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Should he stay or should he go? (Meszaros or Grossmann)

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Old
09-25-2013, 11:21 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
We must be watching different games because he's been terrible this whole preseason so far not just last night & so has Gustafsson before you bring him into the equation.
vets get a free pass on poor play. rookies and younger players dont.
dem the rules.

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09-25-2013, 11:29 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
We must be watching different games because he's been terrible this whole preseason so far not just last night & so has Gustafsson before you bring him into the equation.
I guess we have. I'm not sure what you are deeming terrible, but Mez has played in what, three games thus far? There was nothing wrong with his performance the first game that I saw. The second game I admittedly didn't see, but I don't remember reading anything that would cause me to believe that he was terrible, nor would his 24+ minutes on the ice and blank stats line. And last night he was bad. So unless he was so bad in those 24 minutes while also being at +/- 0 in that second game, I'm not too sure how you can say he has been terrible.

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09-25-2013, 11:49 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
vets get a free pass on poor play. rookies and younger players dont.
dem the rules.
Meszaros isn't a "vet" entitled to a free pass on poor play. Meszaros has just as much if not more to prove than Gustafsson through this preseason.

Both have been the epitome of disaster so far.

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09-25-2013, 11:52 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I guess we have. I'm not sure what you are deeming terrible, but Mez has played in what, three games thus far? There was nothing wrong with his performance the first game that I saw. The second game I admittedly didn't see, but I don't remember reading anything that would cause me to believe that he was terrible, nor would his 24+ minutes on the ice and blank stats line. And last night he was bad. So unless he was so bad in those 24 minutes while also being at +/- 0 in that second game, I'm not too sure how you can say he has been terrible.
He was. He has honestly been the teams worse defender, and that's bad considering how bad Gus has been. Doesn't even look NHL quality.

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09-25-2013, 12:15 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
He was. He has honestly been the teams worse defender, and that's bad considering how bad Gus has been. Doesn't even look NHL quality.
Ok if he was that bad in the second game then I will take back what I said, but I don't remember reading anything too harsh about his performance immediately following that game, and his stat line doesn't indicate a poor performance.

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09-25-2013, 12:17 PM
  #81
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Mez needs a little more time to get back into game shape I believe. He has shown in his career he is the better player, and probably always will be better than Gus. Gus, while young, has been dreadful this year. Not saying he won't turn into a good 3rd pairing defender, but the progress he made last year has seemed to disappear. If Mez is completely healthy, I would much rather have hi and his injury concerns over Gus. Gus also gets injured frequently too. Both have some pretty crappy luck when it comes to injuries.

Waive Gus and if Laughton doesn't make the team, we clear the space for this team. Raffl would be our third liner.

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09-25-2013, 12:40 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's a good point. All those points he scored were likely by accident and his play is defensive play is clearly overrated based on your remembering of the iso cam you have had set up on him over the past few seasons.
He has scored two points since his back injury.

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09-25-2013, 12:43 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
He has scored two points since his back injury.
So you're going with the old "his last 11 NHL games are all that matter" argument?

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09-25-2013, 12:46 PM
  #84
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Since he's had some serious injuries, yeah, I'd say his play since those injuries is a very important consideration.

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09-25-2013, 12:54 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Since he's had some serious injuries, yeah, I'd say his play since those injuries is a very important consideration.
It certainly is worth considering. I'm not saying those games are meaningless, but they are also not the end-all-be-all for Mez. He's 27 years old and the majority of his career he has been a very good defender in this league. 500+ games prior to an injury, in my opinion, are more valuable than 11 games after an injury. Especially when the player is relatively young. Yes, he may never return to his old form. He may never even come close. He may never play a regular season NHL game again. But for me, I'm more confident that a solid player, under 30, can rebound.

You obviously are of the opinion of "what have you done for me lately?" Mez is toast because coming back from injury in a shortened season he didn't look good. Gus is legit based on 60 NHL games. I go with larger sample sizes. Oh well. We'll see what happens.

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09-25-2013, 12:55 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Mez needs a little more time to get back into game shape I believe. He has shown in his career he is the better player, and probably always will be better than Gus. Gus, while young, has been dreadful this year. Not saying he won't turn into a good 3rd pairing defender, but the progress he made last year has seemed to disappear. If Mez is completely healthy, I would much rather have hi and his injury concerns over Gus. Gus also gets injured frequently too. Both have some pretty crappy luck when it comes to injuries.

Waive Gus and if Laughton doesn't make the team, we clear the space for this team. Raffl would be our third liner.
Gus isn't waiver exempt and would be scooped up quickly.

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09-25-2013, 12:56 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
It certainly is worth considering. I'm not saying those games are meaningless, but they are also not the end-all-be-all for Mez. He's 27 years old and the majority of his career he has been a very good defender in this league. 500+ games prior to an injury, in my opinion, are more valuable than 11 games after an injury. Especially when the player is relatively young. Yes, he may never return to his old form. He may never even come close. He may never play a regular season NHL game again. But for me, I'm more confident that a solid player, under 30, can rebound.

You obviously are of the opinion of "what have you done for me lately?" Mez is toast because coming back from injury in a shortened season he didn't look good. Gus is legit based on 60 NHL games. I go with larger sample sizes. Oh well. We'll see what happens.
That larger sample size might be meaningless because Mez's injuries might have made him a different player. When a guy is markedly and consistently less effective every time he comes back from injuries and continues to rack up more injuries it sets off alarm bells.

The only way to be sure is to give him a roster spot and see how it goes. At 4 million dollars that's an excessively risky experiment to run.

Edit: I haven't seen a lot of PS games, but from what I can gather from comments here we have one crappy player for a lot of money, and another crappy player for less money. I'd rather pay less to eat crap if I've absolutely got to eat crap.

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09-25-2013, 12:57 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Gus isn't waiver exempt and would be scooped up quickly.
I not so sure. Not a lot of teams have cap space for 1 million dollar defenseman. HF always tends to believe players that are put on waivers would be taken quickly, it's just not always the case though.

Waive Gervais then, but he doesn't make enough to make us cap compliant.

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09-25-2013, 01:01 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
That larger sample size might be meaningless because Mez's injuries might have made him a different player. When a guy is markedly and consistently less effective every time he comes back from injuries and continues to rack up more injuries it sets off alarm bells.

The only way to be sure is to give him a roster spot and see how it goes. At 4 million dollars that's an excessively risky experiment to run.
I don't know how "markedly and consistently less effective" he's been. He has had two "comeback seasons" we can call them. One of them, he was clearly less effective (his second year in TB). The other, was 11 games out of a shortened season, wherein he was subsequently injured. I am not so sure that you can say that is less effective. A lot of people say he rushed back from the original injury two years ago, which likely would have hampered his play last year. If he's fully healthy, I expect a better showing than last year. How much better, I don't know. But better than last year.

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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
I not so sure. Not a lot of teams have cap space for 1 million dollar defenseman. HF always tends to believe players that are put on waivers would be taken quickly, it's just not always the case though.

Waive Gervais then, but he doesn't make enough to make us cap compliant.
I think Gus gets picked up. He's not as good as most around here say he is, but he's definitely worthy of a waiver pickup. I'd grab him if he was waived by another team. At $1 million, a team could make room.

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09-25-2013, 01:04 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I don't know how "markedly and consistently less effective" he's been. He has had two "comeback seasons" we can call them. One of them, he was clearly less effective (his second year in TB). The other, was 11 games out of a shortened season, wherein he was subsequently injured. I am not so sure that you can say that is less effective. A lot of people say he rushed back from the original injury two years ago, which likely would have hampered his play last year. If he's fully healthy, I expect a better showing than last year. How much better, I don't know. But better than last year.

Well, he's been visibly and statistically less effective since coming back from both injuries, and he's been visibly less effective in the few periods I've seen of him so far.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say he's been less effective. The guy has way too many question marks for his health record and cap hit.

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09-25-2013, 01:09 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Gus isn't waiver exempt and would be scooped up quickly.
This is my biggest concern. Sitting as the 7th does him no good cause he has always started seasons slowly and gotten better (significantly) as the seasons have progressed, in other words he needs to play. So if he's not getting that playing time at the 6th d-man and he can't get it in the AHL I don't know what to say. I'm hoping Gus can build off his good 3rd period last night, not to mention is solid play on the 5 on 3 in the first.

I think playing time will also help Mez but honestly I can't be confident that he'll ever be the player he was after back, shoulder and achilles problems. There's also the fact that he's carrying that 4 mil price tag. I know with Pronger on LTIR we're fine but that little breathing room would be nice come trade deadline.

I realize Grossmann has similar health concerns but I wouldn't consider moving him unless someone was willing to offer something good. He's looked pretty damn good so far and he was a rock before his injury last season and the year before, the same can't be said for Mez.

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09-25-2013, 01:15 PM
  #92
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I'm quite confident that losing Gus wouldn't be a repeat of Seidenberg for Nedved..

This blast from the past I fell upon was interesting..

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=213717

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09-25-2013, 01:23 PM
  #93
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If Meszaros skates like that all season I say get rid of him now, he got caught many times last night standing still.
That's a no-no

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09-25-2013, 01:24 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, he's been visibly and statistically less effective since coming back from both injuries, and he's been visibly less effective in the few periods I've seen of him so far.

So yeah, I think it's safe to say he's been less effective. The guy has way too many question marks for his health record and cap hit.
His first comeback season I'd agree with you fully. But last season, being a shortened season to begin with, then a season shortened to injury, is not proof enough for me. I'd count this season as his "comeback season." Again, I'm not saying he is going to drop 60 points and play a full season. I just think he is going to be a good player again. Better than our other options currently, and worth trade inquiries from other teams who may be interested in upgrading their defense.

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09-25-2013, 01:40 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
His first comeback season I'd agree with you fully. But last season, being a shortened season to begin with, then a season shortened to injury, is not proof enough for me. I'd count this season as his "comeback season." Again, I'm not saying he is going to drop 60 points and play a full season. I just think he is going to be a good player again. Better than our other options currently, and worth trade inquiries from other teams who may be interested in upgrading their defense.
He's done nothing to show that he and his 4 million dollar cap hit are any better than the other cheaper options.

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09-25-2013, 01:47 PM
  #96
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I think some people forget that during his "good" season he faced the easiest opponents every night. The games where he faced 2nd pairing opponents he did horribly. Oh and these are it my words but Bill M did a great article during the summer time on it. Now this doesn't matter if one thinks that it's ok to pay a 5/6 defender 4 mil a year.

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09-25-2013, 01:48 PM
  #97
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He's done nothing to show that he and his 4 million dollar cap hit are any better than the other cheaper options.
Exactly!!

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09-25-2013, 01:55 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He's done nothing to show that he and his 4 million dollar cap hit are any better than the other cheaper options.
And this is where we get back into the old Mez vs. Gus discussion. I think his 500+ games in the NHL are enough to at least give him the benefit of the doubt that he can return to form, or somewhere above where he was last season. You think that is not the case, and the last 11 games are indicative where he is and where he will be. On the other hand, I think Gus and his 60 NHL games have not shown me much of anything. He isn't bad, but I am not ready to hand the sport over to him based on 60 games. You are ready to do that. I agree Mez is overpaid and I agree he should be traded. But I don't agree with the "he's finished" angle many are taking.

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09-25-2013, 02:02 PM
  #99
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And this is where we get back into the old Mez vs. Gus discussion. I think his 500+ games in the NHL are enough to at least give him the benefit of the doubt that he can return to form, or somewhere above where he was last season. You think that is not the case, and the last 11 games are indicative where he is and where he will be. On the other hand, I think Gus and his 60 NHL games have not shown me much of anything. He isn't bad, but I am not ready to hand the sport over to him based on 60 games. You are ready to do that. I agree Mez is overpaid and I agree he should be traded. But I don't agree with the "he's finished" angle many are taking.
His 500+ games come BEFORE his string of major injuries. It's also worth noting that even before those injuries he was widely considered to be overpaid cap wise. So we've got one good season against weaker competition in Philly where it can be argued he earned his cap hit. Other than that, there is really nothing.

The guy simply isn't worth 4 million a year. Especially on a team that needs cap space and is already spending an absurd amount of money on a defense that can best be described as average.

He might not be finished, but he's also not worth his cap hit.

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09-25-2013, 02:04 PM
  #100
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And this is where we get back into the old Mez vs. Gus discussion. I think his 500+ games in the NHL are enough to at least give him the benefit of the doubt that he can return to form, or somewhere above where he was last season. You think that is not the case, and the last 11 games are indicative where he is and where he will be. On the other hand, I think Gus and his 60 NHL games have not shown me much of anything. He isn't bad, but I am not ready to hand the sport over to him based on 60 games. You are ready to do that. I agree Mez is overpaid and I agree he should be traded. But I don't agree with the "he's finished" angle many are taking.
He didn't say the Mez was finished only that he isn't worth the $4mil cap hit and there are definitely better options out there at a cheaper pricetag.
Get Wade Redden, he needs a home and only costs $800k a season, he may be too old now though.


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