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Montreal Canadiens and historical Cup chances

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Old
09-23-2013, 09:57 AM
  #1
ShawnTHW
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Montreal Canadiens and historical Cup chances

No hard feelings Habs fans. Just thought it was an interesting topic to discuss.

http://thehockeywriters.com/montreal...n-nhl-history/

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09-23-2013, 10:09 AM
  #2
Bear of Bad News
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I've changed the bombastic thread title (because you know exactly what it will lead to).

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09-23-2013, 10:33 AM
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Canadiens1958
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Factual Accuracy

Factual accuracy helps. Starting from a false premise will lead you to any desired conclusion.

Specifically stretching the O6 era back to 1927 is rather weak. O6 ran from the 1942-43 season thru the 1966-67 season, total of 25 seasons. Canadiens won 10 SCs during the 25 seasons in question.

Post 1967 expansion. If we take the first 25 seasons post 1967, the Canadiens also won 9 SCs in league whose team population ranged from 12 to 21 teams, 9 SCs in a 19 season stretch, winning a 10th in the 26th season.

So reduced to simple counting, requiring no analysis, your reasoning does not work very well.

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09-23-2013, 12:09 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Good point, C1958. The entire premise of a section of the article (the probability of winning a Cup in a smaller league) fails when you don't even know how many teams were in the league at a given time. It would have taken a minimal amount of research to realize that there were more than 6 teams before 1942-43.

Also, if you're going to talk about the "unfair" advantages the Canadiens had, you're missing perhaps the biggest one - for some reason, the NHL let Montreal GM Sam Pollock write the 1967 expansion rules and he did so in a way that favored his club: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=1476

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09-23-2013, 12:36 PM
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saskriders
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Article doesn't mention how Norris basically controlled all the American teams during the O6 era and basically only tried to make Detroit competitive

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09-23-2013, 01:07 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Choices Come With a Price

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Good point, C1958. The entire premise of a section of the article (the probability of winning a Cup in a smaller league) fails when you don't even know how many teams were in the league at a given time. It would have taken a minimal amount of research to realize that there were more than 6 teams before 1942-43.

Also, if you're going to talk about the "unfair" advantages the Canadiens had, you're missing perhaps the biggest one - for some reason, the NHL let Montreal GM Sam Pollock write the 1967 expansion rules and he did so in a way that favored his club: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=1476
Choices always come with a price. At the time of the 1967 expansion, the Canadiens were owned by the Molson family. By comparison the other five teams and the six expansion teams were rather poor. Some of the expansion teams barely scrapped together the expansion fee.

Yet everyone wanted immediate talent. Last cashed in their spare chips since they were not willing to wait. The Canadiens waited. Sold viable but not the best assets for the future benefits. Model is still used today by the various NHL teams depending on circumstances.

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09-23-2013, 03:51 PM
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Big Phil
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Not that a Leaf fan like myself prefers to defend the Habs, but if we are going to go down this road we'd better do it in every sport. The Yankees are the only North American franchise to win more championships. From Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Maris, Berra, Jackson, Jeter, Rivera, A-Rod, etc. they've had some of the all-time greats and plenty of dynasties to go along with it. They had the money to do this as well, but like the Habs, you still have to win it all on the ice.

If this was the case where a team just wins on paper, the Penguins would have won in 2013.

The original 6 wasn't a patsy league either. Each team played each other 14 times. You knew one another and you knew there were plenty of guys in the minors itching to get your spot. No union, you needed a job in the summer, or in some cases even during the NHL season, so it was never easy to win - ever.

Not to mention the 2000s are the only decade the Habs have never won a Cup.

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09-23-2013, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Not that a Leaf fan like myself prefers to defend the Habs, but if we are going to go down this road we'd better do it in every sport. The Yankees are the only North American franchise to win more championships. From Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Maris, Berra, Jackson, Jeter, Rivera, A-Rod, etc. they've had some of the all-time greats and plenty of dynasties to go along with it. They had the money to do this as well, but like the Habs, you still have to win it all on the ice.

If this was the case where a team just wins on paper, the Penguins would have won in 2013.

The original 6 wasn't a patsy league either. Each team played each other 14 times. You knew one another and you knew there were plenty of guys in the minors itching to get your spot. No union, you needed a job in the summer, or in some cases even during the NHL season, so it was never easy to win - ever.

Not to mention the 2000s are the only decade the Habs have never won a Cup.
And not to mention the Yankees were directly helped by some other franchises (cough, Athletics, cough), something the Habs never really were.

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09-23-2013, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Good point, C1958. The entire premise of a section of the article (the probability of winning a Cup in a smaller league) fails when you don't even know how many teams were in the league at a given time. It would have taken a minimal amount of research to realize that there were more than 6 teams before 1942-43.

Also, if you're going to talk about the "unfair" advantages the Canadiens had, you're missing perhaps the biggest one - for some reason, the NHL let Montreal GM Sam Pollock write the 1967 expansion rules and he did so in a way that favored his club: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=1476
Quote:
Originally Posted by saskriders View Post
Article doesn't mention how Norris basically controlled all the American teams during the O6 era and basically only tried to make Detroit competitive
I had always been under the premise that there were six teams from the inception of the league. I'll admit when I'm wrong and should've delved further into that so I didn't look so incompetent.

As for the other rules you two mentioned, I was doing my due diligence in trying to find a case against the Habs. Never stumbled upon that stuff, but am reading over it now and it's fascinating. Thanks for your input.

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09-23-2013, 07:19 PM
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Canadiens1958
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James Norris Sr

If you are going to look into James Norris Sr you have to look beyond hockey and into boxing, specifically the International Boxing Club.

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09-24-2013, 02:13 AM
  #11
alko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I've changed the bombastic thread title (because you know exactly what it will lead to).
please, tell us the bombastic thread title.

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09-24-2013, 02:54 AM
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BrimStone64
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Written out of jealousy....Habs just had 3 great GMs. For example, Pollock smart to trade his aging players for high draft picks, or Selke smart to spent tons of money in junior team sponsorship. No different than Detroit has done last 15 years. For example, Devellano smart to draft Russians late in draft before Iron Curtain fell, or Holland first at signing players long term to secure low caphit..its call circumventing the cap now but back then it was allowed.

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09-24-2013, 08:44 AM
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Bear of Bad News
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alko View Post
please, tell us the bombastic thread title.
It's on the article in the link.

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Old
09-24-2013, 09:14 AM
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Inflammatory tripe for page views..

If you can't even get the number of teams correct I am guessing that you haven't really delved into the subject well enough to know if the Canadiens had an unfair advantage or not.

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09-24-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Inflammatory tripe for page views.. If you can't even get the number of teams correct I am guessing that you haven't really delved into the subject well enough to know if the Canadiens had an unfair advantage or not.
Now now BC. Cut the guy some slack. Encourage peoples interest in the history of hockey. For a first shot at writing a story about the fabled Habs its not bad at all. 'A' for effort. So he got a few things wrong. Big deal. Merely came here for a critique, not to be Crucified.

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09-24-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Now now BC. Cut the guy some slack. Encourage peoples interest in the history of hockey. For a first shot at writing a story about the fabled Habs its not bad at all. 'A' for effort. So he got a few things wrong. Big deal. Merely came here for a critique, not to be Crucified.
I don't mean to be toooo hard on him.

However, if you're going to write about something and publish it to the world, fact check!

We need people who write about hockey to do a better job than the current THN crap so that things are improving in hockey journalism!

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09-24-2013, 11:55 AM
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I'm not a Habs fan (that avatar was chosen only because it is an awesome old-school kick save and I'm a goalie) so I don't feel I have a horse in this, but my take on the article is that it is far from indicting. It seemed to me more of an explanation of 'these are the things the Canadiens did to remain as dominant as they were for as long as they did'. They benefitted from i) being in Quebec, and ii) having forward-looking leadership who worked hard to ensure favourable conditions for the franchise.

Us in Leaf-land would have loved to have been so fortunate. But in reality there was nothing save for the limited imagination of Leafs management stopping the Leafs from being just as successful.

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09-24-2013, 05:19 PM
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Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
If you are going to look into James Norris Sr you have to look beyond hockey and into boxing, specifically the International Boxing Club.
Yep. The Norris' were fronting for Frankie Carbo through the IBC.

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09-24-2013, 10:19 PM
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ShawnTHW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Inflammatory tripe for page views..

If you can't even get the number of teams correct I am guessing that you haven't really delved into the subject well enough to know if the Canadiens had an unfair advantage or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Now now BC. Cut the guy some slack. Encourage peoples interest in the history of hockey. For a first shot at writing a story about the fabled Habs its not bad at all. 'A' for effort. So he got a few things wrong. Big deal. Merely came here for a critique, not to be Crucified.
That was precisely it. I wanted people to take a look as to how the Habs got so good and won so many Cups. I'm all for people not agreeing with me. It's my opinion vs. yours. Although I pose the question in the title and ask if the Montreal Canadiens are overrated, I come to the conclusion that they were not. However, they did have a much greater advantage than every other team.

I respect your opinion even though you didn't like the article. No hard feelings.

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09-24-2013, 11:09 PM
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Killion
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However, they did have a much greater advantage than every other team.
Everyones a critic. No worries. ... the Habs werent always so well run of course & were in fact hit hard by the Depression in the 30's. The arrival of Maurice Richard & Frank Selke' Sr from Toronto (who brought with him many of the farm system models he'd established with Smythe in Ontario) in the 40's changed their fortunes, the tracks really laid from that point forward in bringing them so much success through the 50's, 60's, 70's & more sporadically through the 80's. The Leafs shared the same advantages and more through the 30's-60's, sadly squandered by ownership through the late 50's until 67/68 and their last real hurrah, running on fumes.

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09-25-2013, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
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Everyones a critic. No worries. ... the Habs werent always so well run of course & were in fact hit hard by the Depression in the 30's. The arrival of Maurice Richard & Frank Selke' Sr from Toronto (who brought with him many of the farm system models he'd established with Smythe in Ontario) in the 40's changed their fortunes, the tracks really laid from that point forward in bringing them so much success through the 50's, 60's, 70's & more sporadically through the 80's. The Leafs shared the same advantages and more through the 30's-60's, sadly squandered by ownership through the late 50's until 67/68 and their last real hurrah, running on fumes.
To go with the debacle of the Leafs administration since the late 1960s, there is also the debacle of the Canadiens management since the late 1970s and particularly from the mid 1990s through the 2000s. Who would have thought back in the day that the time would come when the two Original Six teams that have gone the longest without a Stanley Cup victory are the Leafs at 46 years and the Canadiens at 20 years, the two teams that are, respectively, No. 2 and No. 1 in total number of Cups won, the two oldest NHL teams, the two teams that are traditionally at the heart of Canadian hockey? Hardly anyone, I would think. And there's no realistic chance of a change, at least not in the next few years.

While I'm more than half a century removed from Canada, this breaks my heart, partly because I'm still a fiercely loyal Canadiens fan, but also because of what these two clubs stand for in hockey history, what they were during my boyhood, my youth and my young adult years and what they were before I was alive. It's just terribly saddening.

And yet the Montreal Canadiens are the last Canadian team to win the Stanley Cup--20 years ago!

Does anyone else think that in a league where so much depends on the ability of teams to keep players who become free agents and to attract players from other teams who are free agents, it is highly unfair that no allowance is made in the cap system for the harsher tax rates imposed on players on Canadian teams. The tax rates are beyond the control of any team, of course. A team located where higher tax rates apply must pay out much more to equal the salaries offered by teams located where lower tax rates apply, and thus that team's cap limit takes a much heavier hit.

The Canadian teams start out at a distinct disadvantage in terms of attracting and keeping talent. Of course the vast majority of teams are located in the USA, the NHL headquarters have been in the USA for decades now, and USA economic interests run the league. They aren't about to allow equal footing to Canadian teams.

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Old
09-25-2013, 05:09 AM
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BrimStone64
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Montreal had foresight to spent a lot of money in junior team sponsorship to acquire these young players. Something teams like the Leafs wasn't willing to do. However, if Ballard doesn't buy the Leafs it is most likely different story. Because up until mid-60s, quite the battle between those two clubs for cups. Until then Leafs had won as many cups as Habs.

Teams like Rangers or Bruins had WHL and many QMJHL or OHL to sponsor. It wasn't until Cat Francis that they started to do so. As seen with Rod Gilberts, Jean Ratelles, among others. Or Bobby Orrs, Sandersons.

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09-25-2013, 07:02 AM
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Sponsorship

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats86 View Post
Montreal had foresight to spent a lot of money in junior team sponsorship to acquire these young players. Something teams like the Leafs wasn't willing to do. However, if Ballard doesn't buy the Leafs it is most likely different story. Because up until mid-60s, quite the battle between those two clubs for cups. Until then Leafs had won as many cups as Habs.

Teams like Rangers or Bruins had WHL and many QMJHL or OHL to sponsor. It wasn't until Cat Francis that they started to do so. As seen with Rod Gilberts, Jean Ratelles, among others. Or Bobby Orrs, Sandersons.


The Bruins, Blackhawks, and Rangers had a solid junior sponsorship program after WWII producing Memorial Cup winners and quality NHL players - see the 1948, 1951,1953, 1954 Memorial Cup winning rosters - Port Arthur, Guelph, Barrie, Ste Catharines, in the link below:

http://www.mastercardmemorialcup.ca/historyrosters

Three problems. They did not have the quality minor league or NHL coaches to develop the players effectively. They would make bad trades moving the young players too early. Poor and weak management of their junior teams.

You cite Rod Gilbert and Jean Ratelle with the Rangers. Both from east end Montreal, College Roussin but they had to go to Guelph to play in the Rangers junior system because the Rangers had shut down the Quebec junior teams. Other junior prospects from east end Montreal and other industrial parts of Quebec were not willing to go to non Montreal sponsored teams, because it would mean giving up an excellent job/future at the refineries, etc. Boston had a junior farm system, teams in Victoriaville, partial agreement in Shawinigan but they were not stand alone operations but feeders for Niagara Falls, Oshawa, Barrie in Ontario. This produced Don Marcotte, Jean Pronovost, Gilles Marotte, a few others but not as many as was possible.

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09-25-2013, 07:33 PM
  #24
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Where should the Montreal Canadiens have had their territorial rights? Alaska? I mean there was nothing to stop Boston of Chicago from producing boatloads of hockey talent in their 50 mile radius.

1 in 6 six chance of winning the cup? Ahhh now I understand why the Black Hawks and Rangers had 40 year droughts. Too many other teams!

Of interesting note, Montreal and Toronto won 19 of 25 Cups in the 6 team era.

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09-25-2013, 07:52 PM
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Of interesting note, Montreal and Toronto won 19 of 25 Cups in the 6 team era.
And Detroit won 5 of the remaining 6. The O6 wasn't exactly the most balanced league

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