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Pre #6|Thursday, Sep. 26, 2013|Flyers at Devils|7:00 p.m. ET

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Old
09-27-2013, 08:21 AM
  #351
sa cyred
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I was hoping a little more offense with Raffl. I know he is still getting used to the size and such (one thi you can't fault him is he carries the puck into the zone VERY well) but hoping he gets some offense going. By no means does he look over his head though.

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09-27-2013, 08:29 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by KevD10 View Post
It pretty much was. Although, Jagr,Elias, and Fayne didn't play.

However, your point still stands, though I think the players deserve more blame than Lavi. The system works, it's just that you need the players to execute, and for some reason the Flyers can't seem to do that. The defensemen and forwards cough up the puck far too often in the defensive zone because they can't make clean passes, which leads to them getting hemmed in their zone. Also, their forecheck is terrible at times; they can dump the puck in the zone, but it doesn't do much good when no one can win a puck battle.

Hopefully everyone gets their act together when the season starts and we'll look back and laugh that we were getting angry over preseason games.
You provided a perfect explanation why the system needs to be at least adjusted- it does not suit the current personnel.
However, the personnel has changed dramatically, but the symptoms of failure are the same, leading one to believe that either the system is ill designed and needs adjustment, or you have a wrong men instituting it.

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09-27-2013, 08:30 AM
  #353
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I don't think the system works against teams that know how to beat it. Like the Devils and Rangers.

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09-27-2013, 08:37 AM
  #354
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I don't even understand what system we play

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09-27-2013, 08:38 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
I don't even understand what system we play
Apparently, neither do the players.

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09-27-2013, 09:24 AM
  #356
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I'm pretty sure this line has never played together this year.
I know. I can't remember Couturier and Schenn together ever. But Schenn and Simmonds are supposedly to play with Vinny. Seems like Schenn does not have chemistry with anyone.

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09-27-2013, 09:30 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
I know. I can't remember Couturier and Schenn together ever. But Schenn and Simmonds are supposedly to play with Vinny. Seems like Schenn does not have chemistry with anyone.
When he centred Hartnell and Simmonds the looked good, Schenn also had chemistry with Jake at one point.

Him and Couts looked great together in the AHL tbf.

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09-27-2013, 09:38 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by CSKA1974 View Post
You provided a perfect explanation why the system needs to be at least adjusted- it does not suit the current personnel.
However, the personnel has changed dramatically, but the symptoms of failure are the same, leading one to believe that either the system is ill designed and needs adjustment, or you have a wrong men instituting it.
Yea, but what system will work then? If the players can't do simple things like make clean passes and win puck battles, no system will work.

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09-27-2013, 09:43 AM
  #359
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Schenn needs to get better positionally. The guys has a ton of talent, but he never gets to utilize it because he's always chasing the play. Once he settles down and realizes that he doesn't need to score a goal or get a big hit on every shift, he'll be fine. It's all part of the learning process of a young player.

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09-27-2013, 09:44 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Even if it was made up of the 100% NHLers, the Devils have perhaps the worst roster in the NHL. They might end having a winning record against only the Hurricanes and Flyers this year in the Met.
ANd what is scary, is that in the last 14 games vs NJ(including this pre-season), the Flyers are 2-12 against them. How in the hell can you not adjust a system that gives you these results. WE ALL SEE IT...why can't they???? We are wasting breakout years by our young players by not having a system that can win consistently. It's a shame.

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09-27-2013, 09:45 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
I know. I can't remember Couturier and Schenn together ever. But Schenn and Simmonds are supposedly to play with Vinny. Seems like Schenn does not have chemistry with anyone.
I think they probably played 2 games together, Simmonds has been down for about a week with the flu.

Last night was probably a real bad judge of the whole team, but the issues still seem to be there even in the first game against the Devils and that was probably made up of 90% regular squad.

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09-27-2013, 09:50 AM
  #362
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I'm sorry but this team isn't going to just turn it on like they always seem they think they can do. Yeah it is preseason but the continuing trends are troubling. I said it would be a mistake to go into another season with Lavi at the helm and Holmgren once again will have to try and fix his mistake during the season and be reactive and reactionary once again...

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09-27-2013, 09:59 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by KevD10 View Post
Yea, but what system will work then? If the players can't do simple things like make clean passes and win puck battles, no system will work.
I think teams sometimes implement systems that benefit their best players but don't work for the whole of the team. For instance Tortorella's shot blocking , defensive style suited lundqvist but hurt brad richards.

I think that is what we are doing here with Giroux. I love Claude but giroux is not a 90 pt player in any system. He is a 90 pt player in lavy's up tempo style. If you put giroux in new jersey or in boston or in LA i don't know if he is even a ppg player.

This team is not suited for uptempo play, In fact by looking at our roster we have no sort of consistently through our lineup that would lead one to believe that the roster was constructed with a style in mind. It is more of a hodge podge of players put together and hoping for the best.

WE are not a fast team, our only good skaters of note are Giroux, Voracek, Read, and Coburn. We are not a big team that can forecheck you to death, Our only good forecheckers are simmer, hartnell, and maybe schenn. We are not a team with alot of on the puck skill Giroux and voracek are the only ones that come to mind.

And we are not a team that can sit back and rely on our defense and goalie to win games for us.

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09-27-2013, 10:04 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I think teams sometimes implement systems that benefit their best players but don't work for the whole of the team. For instance Tortorella's shot blocking , defensive style suited lundqvist but hurt brad richards.

I think that is what we are doing here with Giroux. I love Claude but giroux is not a 90 pt player in any system. He is a 90 pt player in lavy's up tempo style. If you put giroux in new jersey or in boston or in LA i don't know if he is even a ppg player.

This team is not suited for uptempo play, In fact by looking at our roster we have no sort of consistently through our lineup that would lead one to believe that the roster was constructed with a style in mind. It is more of a hodge podge of players put together and hoping for the best.

WE are not a fast team, our only good skaters of note are Giroux, Voracek, Read, and Coburn. We are not a big team that can forecheck you to death, Our only good forecheckers are simmer, hartnell, and maybe schenn. We are not a team with alot of on the puck skill Giroux and voracek are the only ones that come to mind.

And we are not a team that can sit back and rely on our defense and goalie to win games for us.
So, basically what you're saying is "we're screwed"?

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09-27-2013, 10:17 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I think teams sometimes implement systems that benefit their best players but don't work for the whole of the team. For instance Tortorella's shot blocking , defensive style suited lundqvist but hurt brad richards.

I think that is what we are doing here with Giroux. I love Claude but giroux is not a 90 pt player in any system. He is a 90 pt player in lavy's up tempo style. If you put giroux in new jersey or in boston or in LA i don't know if he is even a ppg player.

This team is not suited for uptempo play, In fact by looking at our roster we have no sort of consistently through our lineup that would lead one to believe that the roster was constructed with a style in mind. It is more of a hodge podge of players put together and hoping for the best.

WE are not a fast team, our only good skaters of note are Giroux, Voracek, Read, and Coburn. We are not a big team that can forecheck you to death, Our only good forecheckers are simmer, hartnell, and maybe schenn. We are not a team with alot of on the puck skill Giroux and voracek are the only ones that come to mind.

And we are not a team that can sit back and rely on our defense and goalie to win games for us.
Giroux is at least a PPG player on any roster in the league, except for maybe Phoenix and St. Louis, because he's arguably the best powerplay player in the league.

The rest reads way too much like "the sky is falling."

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09-27-2013, 10:21 AM
  #366
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So, basically what you're saying is "we're screwed"?
well our 2-12 record against NJDs basicly says just that.


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09-27-2013, 10:22 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by KevD10 View Post
Yea, but what system will work then? If the players can't do simple things like make clean passes and win puck battles, no system will work.
I would agree with you if we were talking about high school JV team. Flyers have high skilled/ talented personnel that is underperforming due to being placed into unsuitable model.
The errors that you are talking about were almost non existent last year after Lavy had been forced to simplify the system.

They were able to perform at their level once they were put in the environment to succeed.

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09-27-2013, 10:29 AM
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I think teams sometimes implement systems that benefit their best players but don't work for the whole of the team. For instance Tortorella's shot blocking , defensive style suited lundqvist but hurt brad richards.

I think that is what we are doing here with Giroux. I love Claude but giroux is not a 90 pt player in any system. He is a 90 pt player in lavy's up tempo style. If you put giroux in new jersey or in boston or in LA i don't know if he is even a ppg player.

This team is not suited for uptempo play, In fact by looking at our roster we have no sort of consistently through our lineup that would lead one to believe that the roster was constructed with a style in mind. It is more of a hodge podge of players put together and hoping for the best.

WE are not a fast team, our only good skaters of note are Giroux, Voracek, Read, and Coburn. We are not a big team that can forecheck you to death, Our only good forecheckers are simmer, hartnell, and maybe schenn. We are not a team with alot of on the puck skill Giroux and voracek are the only ones that come to mind.

And we are not a team that can sit back and rely on our defense and goalie to win games for us.

You just got it all down don't you. Why don't you wait till the season starts before you state that everything you know about this team is set is stone. Give it a chance first. I've seen the flyers start terrible before and the season was a whole different story.

And as far as Giroux not being a 90pt player...that's just nonsense. The devils cant get any of their players to score high. Look at what happened to Kovy. There is a reason he wanted out. I hate watching the devils play. They might have a solid system, but they are so boring to watch. Even when we beat them the games are uninteresting. There is a reason they can't fill the stands.

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09-27-2013, 10:41 AM
  #369
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You just got it all down don't you. Why don't you wait till the season starts before you state that everything you know about this team is set is stone. Give it a chance first. I've seen the flyers start terrible before and the season was a whole different story.

And as far as Giroux not being a 90pt player...that's just nonsense. The devils cant get any of their players to score high. Look at what happened to Kovy. There is a reason he wanted out. I hate watching the devils play. They might have a solid system, but they are so boring to watch. Even when we beat them the games are uninteresting. There is a reason they can't fill the stands.
Which has nothing to do with what you just wrote. It is a matter of circumstance and timing for when they entered the league. The potential for fans was already limited due to long-term ties to the Rangers for north Jersey and the Flyers for south Jersey. Sprinkle in some Islander fans just cause and you have a recipe for a weak fan base. Even winning 3 cups didn't matter, it's not their "system" that prevents fans from filling the seats.

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09-27-2013, 10:46 AM
  #370
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Which has nothing to do with what you just wrote. It is a matter of circumstance and timing for when they entered the league. The potential for fans was already limited due to long-term ties to the Rangers for north Jersey and the Flyers for south Jersey. Sprinkle in some Islander fans just cause and you have a recipe for a weak fan base. Even winning 3 cups didn't matter, it's not their "system" that prevents fans from filling the seats.
Valid points, but their game doesn't help. Its boring as crap and if you introduce fans to a new sport, NJ wouldn't be a team you'd start with.

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09-27-2013, 11:04 AM
  #371
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Valid points, but their game doesn't help. Its boring as crap and if you introduce fans to a new sport, NJ wouldn't be a team you'd start with.
Yeah it is boring winning cups...exciting to not have won a cup since the 70's...

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09-27-2013, 11:11 AM
  #372
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Yeah it is boring winning cups...exciting to not have won a cup since the 70's...
Cups aren't guaranteed. Hypothetical, somebody wants to watch them this year for the first time. You think they'll be MASSIVELY entertained to stick around?

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09-27-2013, 11:50 AM
  #373
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what was the record against the Devils in the prior 14 games before the trades.
I am going to guess it was much, much better. coincidence? probably not.

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09-27-2013, 11:59 AM
  #374
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Few things.

1) It's up to the GM to create a well-built team. That includes not only quality players but a team identity of players that suit each others play styles as well as the coaches play style. Homer has failed to do that time after time. We went from a **** coach he hired in Stevens that had no real system really aside from "go out there and wing it" and then we went to a coach that emphasizes puck movement and an attack style despite Timonen being our only modicum of offensive talent on the back-end aside from the short period of time we had Pronger (you could argue Carle but him and Pronger kind of went along as a pair at the time). This is without mentioning all the other stupid mistakes and failures like not getting a steady rock of Gibraltar in net which we kind of need in a system like this or immediately trading Richards and Carter after signing them long-term.

My point is that if you're going to blame the coach or the players, regardless of which one, you should be blaming Homer as well as he put this team together and he's been here long enough that almost everything out there is from his own construction. I've said this before and I'll say it again Homer is way past his shelf life and gets way more breaks then maybe any other professional hockey organization would give to him. The way a sports team works is that a GM makes the team and hires the coach and those two units are supposed to work well with synergy. We don't have that.

2) Every team ****s up simple stuff like passing and zone coverage frequently. If professional hockey players played like professionals a hundred percent of the time we'd probably never have highlight goals and have nothing but deflection and screen type goals go through for any team. It confuses me how a professional athlete paid millions of dollars can **** up stuff as simple as passing and zone coverage so frequently but this happens to every team. It's on a GM to put enough talent out there to compensate for those mistakes and on a coach (that the GM hires) to limit those mistakes.

3) Our coach doesn't fit our personnel and he also has been given way too much time with this team. Coaches have short shelf lives for the most part for reasons I don't feel like going in to. If it were up to me I'd have changed coaches and given Homer this one last season to make it or break it. Of course, because this is the Flyers, neither happened.

4) This leads into my quote, but I hate hate hate when people talk about leadership qualities of players. That's part of why I was bothered by all the talk of us not being able to get it done with Richards or Carter when they were here. None of us are professional hockey players. None of us are on the team or even have a connection to the team. Therefore how are any of us supposed to logically and fairly comment on any player's leadership abilities or even the general leadership of the lockerroom? We ****ing can't. There is the rare case of players speaking up about lockerroom cancers but aside from that there's no way to know. That's why when people talk about Toews leadership ability or Carter and Richards lack of leadership when they were here I just want to scream at them and rip their freaking head off.

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Also this whole not competing for a full 60 minutes was blamed on the leadership group (Richards and Carter). Well they've been gone for a while now and we still have to watch the same **** every game. Play like garbage for the majority of the game, play hard the final 5 minutes of the game and hope for a win. I guess Giroux, Hartnell and Kimmo should go next. Seriously though the common denominator is Lavi, if the team gets off to a bad start something needs to change. I'm just particularly upset cause if a coaching change is necessary it'll have to be in season meaning they'll end up going with Murray.
They also won Cups almost immediately after leaving Philly. Gagne included.

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09-27-2013, 12:00 PM
  #375
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Give me Tocchet!!

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