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Oscar Klefbom for Kevin Bieksa

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Old
09-27-2013, 03:24 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth View Post
Your thought process seems to be 'Edmontons D is terrible, so they should over pay for Bieksa'. I'm not really sure what to tell you. Oilers fans don't seem to feel that way, so agree to disagree I guess. End of thread?
Mark Spector addressed this idea on the air. He didn't think the Canucks would agree to it. Yet you are saying this is an overpayment.

I like Beiksa. I just want Klefbom because I think we can develop him better and sooner just because we have some veterans.

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09-27-2013, 03:24 PM
  #77
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Also, I like how last night when some guy was messing with Hamhuis, then later in the game he ran Horvat, Bieksa dropped the gloves and fought him. I forget who the guy was but he was a tough guy, a fighter..
anyways, It was an average fight, but Bieksa got the best of him

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09-27-2013, 03:27 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Bankerguy View Post
Bieksa is a solid no.3 dman.

Only scored at a 27 point pace last year but he had injuries and only played 36 games.
The year before that he put up 44 points.
He's tough, he fights, he hits, he's a vet, he's decent in his own zone, and on a fair contract.

That being said, what's Klefboms potential?
Klefbom has Edler potential . But Edler had Ohlund and Salo to learn from.

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09-27-2013, 03:29 PM
  #79
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I doubt Edmonton goes for this. They think Klefbom is going to become as good as Edler is .

Nurse might become as good as Edler. Klefbom will not. If the Oilers were ready to contend right now, they do the trade, but they are not.
Said everything perfectly. The fact that I hate the air Bieksa breathes means he's probably worth it. Plus he has a stupid punchable face.

That said oilers wouldn't consider a trade like this for 2 years, and by then Klefbom is more valuable.

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09-27-2013, 03:30 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth View Post
Well I think we can agree that a Hemsky for Horvat trade works for both teams.

Look at the Oilers forwards. Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, Hemsky. Any of those 4 is better than Chris Higgins.

See how that works?
Not comparative at all. Not sure the point you are trying to make here.

Let me see if I can figure this one out.

Oiler fan lists the Oil D with Ference on the top pair. A Canuck fan says Bieksa > Ference therefore would become a top pairing D on the Oil. Makes sense to me. So far so good.

Then you go on to compare the top 4 wingers on the Oilers with Higgins? The Canucks 3rd or 4th best winger. How/why does this make any sense? What am I misunderstanding here. Should your comparison not be with D.Sedin?

So no... I don't see how this works. Please explain.

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09-27-2013, 03:36 PM
  #81
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Said everything perfectly. The fact that I hate the air Bieksa breathes means he's probably worth it. Plus he has a stupid punchable face.

That said oilers wouldn't consider a trade like this for 2 years, and by then Klefbom is more valuable.
There is nothing more annoying than this!

Where did you pick up your crystal ball? I know many people who have them but they are wrong as often as they are right. What makes your crystal ball so superior that even the scouts/GM's of the NHL cannot say for certain where a player will be in 2 years.

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09-27-2013, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Klefbom has Edler potential . But Edler had Ohlund and Salo to learn from.
No he doesnt.

Klefbom having Edler potential is wildly homeristic fantasy.

Darnell Nurse has Edler potential.

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09-27-2013, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Klefbom has Edler potential . But Edler had Ohlund and Salo to learn from.

Klefbom may not have any high level vets on defense, but that doesn't mean he won't or can't develop quickly. Lots of stud defenders around the NHL broke in on teams with weak defenses and learned the game without vet leaders.

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09-27-2013, 03:39 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
Mark Spector addressed this idea on the air. He didn't think the Canucks would agree to it. Yet you are saying this is an overpayment.

I like Beiksa. I just want Klefbom because I think we can develop him better and sooner just because we have some veterans.
How about Shinkaruk for Gordon? We could develop shinakruk better

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09-27-2013, 03:41 PM
  #85
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No he doesnt.

Klefbom having Edler potential is wildly homeristic fantasy.

Darnell Nurse has Edler potential.
Considering Klefbom was ranked as the better prospect thats a weird statement

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09-27-2013, 03:44 PM
  #86
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How about Shinkaruk for Gordon? We could develop shinakruk better
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09-27-2013, 05:16 PM
  #87
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Considering Klefbom was ranked as the better prospect thats a weird statement
Serious question who ranked Klefbom as a better prospect than Nurse?

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09-27-2013, 05:30 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Klefborn is probably the #2 d prospect in their system. I don't think EDM touches it.
That isnt saying much as he was downright terrible in the pre-season.

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09-27-2013, 05:38 PM
  #89
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That isnt saying much as he was downright terrible in the pre-season.
This was literally his first time playing in 10 months. I'd be shocked if he didn't struggle.

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09-27-2013, 05:49 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Bieksa is not Chara indeed. Chara was dominant enough that he could potentially lose a step and still be an absolute stud. Bieksa is already very inconsistent and coming off a fairly mediocre season and if he loses a step, could quickly become ineffective

Most players do decline as they hid their mid to late thirties so to say he definitely wii stay at the exact same level is "nothing short of ridiculous."

For every Chara, there are probably a dozen dmen who lose their game as they age: Kaberle, Striet, Redden, etc.

My experience on this board is when fans of an aging team look to gut another teams young core, they make all these wild claims about how modern day players are ageless. I am sure you guys would not be happy to see Jensen or Gauce traded for a 31 yo though.

That is not to say a seasoned vet won't have great value, but the attempts to portray age as irrelevant are unconvincing. At the very least, I am confident NHL GMs won't buy that line of logic.
I'd happily trade either of Jensen or Gaunce for a 31 YO top-4 defender that can log 22-25 mins/night, play in every situation, including the PP and PK, play on the team's top shutdown pairing, is tough as nails and fights for his teammates, plays with huge energy and motivation in the playoffs, and has put up multiple 40+ point seasons in his career.

Bieksa has flaws in his game... namely he makes high risk plays and gets burned at times for it. But when it comes to being a complete dman, there are few that bring as many tools to the table as he does. He a pitbull on the ice that can play in any situation, and has been on the top shutdown pairing on one of the top defensive teams in the league for years, while being able to put up points as well. And he plays with his heart on his sleeve and why he's respected by his teammates. Seriously, how many dmen can you name in the league that bring all that to the table? There are tough dmen out there that will never come close to putting up 40 points... 40+ point dmen that can't be relied on to play in a shutdown role or bring little or no physical presense or intensity to their teams.

At 31, he still has a few good years left in him. I'd deal Jensen or Gaunce for a player of that calibre in a second, 31 YO or not. Players like Bieksa don't come around often. And he's the type of player that any team would love to go into the playoffs with. His game is built for the playoffs because of that attitude, intensity and energy he brings when the games get nasty and tight.

Having said that I can understand Edmonton not wanting to do this kind of trade. They are not going to place as much value on what a player like that can bring to that team come playoff time. They are more interested in upside and potential than having a veteran like Bieksa right now.

For the Canucks, why would they deal a player like that right now? They aren't going into rebuilding mode, and have some solid young dmen coming up the pipeline, including Tanev (already in the NHL) and Corrado (should be in the NHL now and will likely be a regular before the end of the season). A team like Vancouver is going to place a lot more value on a veteran who can raise his game in the playoffs, and bring the type of intensity and overall game that Bieksa does.

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09-27-2013, 05:57 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
I'd happily trade either of Jensen or Gaunce for a 31 YO top-4 defender that can log 22-25 mins/night, play in every situation, including the PP and PK, play on the team's top shutdown pairing, is tough as nails and fights for his teammates, plays with huge energy and motivation in the playoffs, and has put up multiple 40+ point seasons in his career.
If Bieksa is truly your #1 or #2 dman (i.e., is on your top pairing), then you are not going very far this year. He is in no way, shape, or form at high caliber top 2 dman.

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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
At 31, he still has a few good years left in him. I'd deal Jensen or Gaunce for a player of that calibre in a second, 31 YO or not. Players like Bieksa don't come around often. And he's the type of player that any team would love to go into the playoffs with. His game is built for the playoffs because of that attitude, intensity and energy he brings when the games get nasty and tight.

Having said that I can understand Edmonton not wanting to do this kind of trade. They are not going to place as much value on what a player like that can bring to that team come playoff time. They are more interested in upside and potential than having a veteran like Bieksa right now.

For the Canucks, why would they deal a player like that right now? They aren't going into rebuilding mode, and have some solid young dmen coming up the pipeline, including Tanev (already in the NHL) and Corrado (should be in the NHL now and will likely be a regular before the end of the season). A team like Vancouver is going to place a lot more value on a veteran who can raise his game in the playoffs, and bring the type of intensity and overall game that Bieksa does.
All of this makes total sense to me. Although, personally, I think it would be to VCR's advantage to move some vets for youth. I don't think you are going to win with the current lineup. I'm not saying total rebuild, and I think VCR is starting to bring in some nice youth, but I believe that it is time to start thinking about life after the Sedins.

But, there isn't much in this post that isn't logical and fair.

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09-27-2013, 05:58 PM
  #92
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That isnt saying much as he was downright terrible in the pre-season.

Whoa! You mean a rookie dman was bad in the preseason. Well, his career is over.

(Don't get mad at me, I was just adopting a playful tone to make a point - not trying to flame you).

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09-27-2013, 06:19 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
If Bieksa is truly your #1 or #2 dman (i.e., is on your top pairing), then you are not going very far this year. He is in no way, shape, or form at high caliber top 2 dman.



All of this makes total sense to me. Although, personally, I think it would be to VCR's advantage to move some vets for youth. I don't think you are going to win with the current lineup. I'm not saying total rebuild, and I think VCR is starting to bring in some nice youth, but I believe that it is time to start thinking about life after the Sedins.
Bieska played the entire season on the team's top shutdown pairing for the past several years, which led the team to back to back President's trophies, and a trip to game 7 of the finals. At 31, dmen rarely drop off from their late 20's so dramatically that now all of a sudden Bieksa at 31 wouldn't be able to play the same role he did during those years. And in 2 of those years they were also a top-5 defensive team in the league (including the #1 defensive team one of those years).

As far as depth chart goes, Bieksa is the #3 dman on the team (behind Edler and Hamhuis), but plays on the top shutdown pairing next to Hamhuis (as he's better than Edler in a shutdown role, and being a natural right side dman makes him a better fit to play next to Hamhuis).

And the Canucks are thinking about life after the Sedins... doesn't mean you start tearing up the team or move key vets that have a leadership role here.

They did just draft 2 1sts that both have solid potential in Horvat and Shinkaruk... they added that to Jensen and Gaunce. That's 4 recent 1st round picks still developing. Have a 21 YO Kassian and Schroeder on the team... and a few young defenders coming up. IMO that's a solid improvement on where their pipeline was from a few years ago. And the Sedins aren't about to retire in a year or two either... they still have a few solid years left and are in tremendous shape still (among the top fitness level of any Canuck this year in camp, showing more endurance than all the 18/19/20 YOs in camp this year). While Kesler, Burrows, Hamhuis, Edler, Garrison and even Bieksa all have a solid few years left, which only gives them more time to continue adding to the Horvats/Shinkaruk/Jensen/Gaunce/Corrado etc they already have coming through the pipeline.

People seem to think that the Canucks are all made up of old players well past their prime... they're still very much in their prime years right now... and their prospects cupboard hasn't been as deep since the late 90s.

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09-27-2013, 06:47 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
Serious question who ranked Klefbom as a better prospect than Nurse?
Most Edmonton fans, most Edmonton media writers and bloggers, Cory pronman also did as well.

But most of that was before preseason and how well nurse played. Maybe the thinking has changed

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09-27-2013, 06:49 PM
  #95
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Most Edmonton fans, most Edmonton media writers and bloggers, Cory pronman also did as well.

But most of that was before preseason and how well nurse played. Maybe the thinking has changed
I don't put much value in Pronman at all he's got a different way to look at things. I really thought most people in EMD valued Nurse much more then Klefbom. I'm not in EDM so I didn't know that was how EDM fans felt.

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09-27-2013, 06:54 PM
  #96
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Bieska played the entire season on the team's top shutdown pairing for the past several years, which led the team to back to back President's trophies, and a trip to game 7 of the finals.
Bieska is simply not a top pairing dman. Too many brain farts and not skiled enough in any aspect of the game for that role. If he is really your top pairing guy, then that would help explain why the Nucks keep crash and burning in the playoffs.

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As far as depth chart goes, Bieksa is the #3 dman on the team (behind Edler and Hamhuis), but plays on the top shutdown pairing next to Hamhuis (as he's better than Edler in a shutdown role, and being a natural right side dman makes him a better fit to play next to Hamhuis).
He is really # 4, since Garrison is a superior all around dman.


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And the Canucks are thinking about life after the Sedins... doesn't mean you start tearing up the team or move key vets that have a leadership role here.

They did just draft 2 1sts that both have solid potential in Horvat and Shinkaruk... they added that to Jensen and Gaunce. That's 4 recent 1st round picks still developing. Have a 21 YO Kassian and Schroeder on the team... and a few young defenders coming up. IMO that's a solid improvement on where their pipeline was from a few years ago. And the Sedins aren't about to retire in a year or two either... they still have a few solid years left and are in tremendous shape still (among the top fitness level of any Canuck this year in camp, showing more endurance than all the 18/19/20 YOs in camp this year). While Kesler, Burrows, Hamhuis, Edler, Garrison and even Bieksa all have a solid few years left, which only gives them more time to continue adding to the Horvats/Shinkaruk/Jensen/Gaunce/Corrado etc they already have coming through the pipeline.

People seem to think that the Canucks are all made up of old players well past their prime... they're still very much in their prime years right now... and their prospects cupboard hasn't been as deep since the late 90s.
What you are saying here is exactly why I don't think the Nucks need to clean house and rebuild from scratch. They have developed a nice nucleus of young players.

I don't think VCR is going to do jack this coming season though. Another visit to the playoffs, another early flame-out. I think it is probably time to start thinking about turning some of your vet assets into futures.

But, I could understand why the Nucks would not want to do that too.

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09-27-2013, 06:56 PM
  #97
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Klefbom may not have any high level vets on defense, but that doesn't mean he won't or can't develop quickly. Lots of stud defenders around the NHL broke in on teams with weak defenses and learned the game without vet leaders.
Like who ? Jay Boumeester ? Dion Phenuef ? Both of whom never lived up to their contracts and still haven't got their defensive game as clean as it should be.

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09-27-2013, 07:12 PM
  #98
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Bieska is simply not a top pairing dman. Too many brain farts and not skiled enough in any aspect of the game for that role. If he is really your top pairing guy, then that would help explain why the Nucks keep crash and burning in the playoffs.
Distiction needs to be made between "top pairing" and "playing on the top shutdown unit"

Bieksa is not a top pairing dman. He has been on the team's top shutdown unit, playing next to Hamhuis, during the organization's most successful years and their top defensive years. The team finished as run away winners of the President's, the league's top defensive team, the league's #2 PK team, and a trip to game 7 of the Cup finals, with Bieksa playing on the team's top shutdown unit.

He didn't just get by playing in that role, he helped the team to records that the organization has never seen before in that role. And at 31 there isn't going to be a huge drop off from playing in that role at 28... if anything most dmen become more stable as they get into their mid-30s, and stability been Bieksa's weakest area.

Edler is the team's #1 dman. He gets more minutes overall than any other dman on the team. He gets the team's prime offensive roles. That makes him #1 overall on the depth chart.

Hamhuis is the team's #2 dman. His minutes are slightly below Edler's, but he plays on the top shutdown unit, and is relied on in a defensive role more so than any other dman on the team.

Bieksa and Garrison - flip a coin as far as #3 goes. Garrison filled in on the top shutdown unit last year down the stretch next to Hamhuis and played very well there, but Bieksa has played that role for years, and again during the years that saw the greatest success for the organization overall.

What's made Bieksa even more valuable to the Canucks has been his right handed shot. Until Tanev emerged just last year, he was really the only right handed shot on the Canucks for the longest time (outside Salo, who spent more time on the IR than on the ice).

Again, you've said multiple times that if Bieksa really is the Canucks top pairing guy then the team is doomed, but playing on the top shutdown role (again not to be confused with being a top pairing dman, but the unit that faces off against the opposition's top lines most often), the Canucks have not just done well, but had the best seasons and post-season of their existence.

So would you call it "crash and burn" when the team finished with 117 points, and went to game 7 of the finals posting the #1 GF, #1 GA, #1PP and #2PK in the league along the way? They did that with Bieksa playing alongside Hamhuis on the top shutdown pairing... not what I would call "crash and burn" personally.

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09-27-2013, 07:47 PM
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son of their existence.

So would you call it "crash and burn" when the team finished with 117 points, and went to game 7 of the finals posting the #1 GF, #1 GA, #1PP and #2PK in the league along the way? They did that with Bieksa playing alongside Hamhuis on the top shutdown pairing... not what I would call "crash and burn" personally.
The Nucks have managed a grand total of one playoff win in the last two seasons, and got nicely swept last season by a team that didn't even make the conference finals.

Are you seriously not going to see that as a major failure and a "crash and burn?"

And,I would take Garrison over Bieksa anyday.

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09-27-2013, 08:03 PM
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The Nucks have managed a grand total of one playoff win in the last two seasons, and got nicely swept last season by a team that didn't even make the conference finals.

Are you seriously not going to see that as a major failure and a "crash and burn?"

And,I would take Garrison over Bieksa anyday.
And in one of those seasons, they were the best team in 82 games and the LA Kings were one game away from missing the playoffs.

The playoffs are mostly about luck and momentum. Just look at Calgary in 2004 or the Oilers in 2006. Not the slightest hope in hell of those teams winning a Presidents trophy, a Campbell, a Selke, 2 Hearts, an Art Ross, a Jennings, a Jack Adams ect... I would even say the same about the LA Kings.

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