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Oscar Klefbom for Kevin Bieksa

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Old
09-27-2013, 08:08 PM
  #101
Darth Milbury
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
And in one of those seasons, they were the best team in 82 games and the LA Kings were one game away from missing the playoffs.

The playoffs are mostly about luck and momentum. Just look at Calgary in 2004 or the Oilers in 2006. Not the slightest hope in hell of those teams winning a Presidents trophy, a Campbell, a Selke, 2 Hearts, an Art Ross, a Jennings, a Jack Adams ect... I would even say the same about the LA Kings.

Really, so the playoffs are mostly about "luck", eh? Then I suppose we can just write off the Nucks march to the finals a few years back as "luck."

VCR's performance in the playoffs has been dismal over the last two years. And, I'm willing to bet that it will be dismal again this year - because the fundamental problems remain.

Good teams win consistently in the playoffs. That's not not just about "luck and momentum." There are always teams that sneak in, like the Oilers, Flames, etc. But, the top tier teams make frequent runs and the teams that just don't have the horses, like the Nucks, continually flame out.

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09-27-2013, 08:12 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
If Bieksa is truly your #1 or #2 dman (i.e., is on your top pairing), then you are not going very far this year. He is in no way, shape, or form at high caliber top 2 dman.

Bieksa has played top pairing minutes for nearly 5 years now, in that span the Canucks have won 5 division titles, 2 President's Trophies and a trip to game 7 of the finals. How could you possibly come to this conclusion?

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09-27-2013, 08:56 PM
  #103
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How about Shinkaruk for Gordon? We could develop shinakruk better
No you couldn't look what you did to RNH

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09-27-2013, 09:09 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Really, so the playoffs are mostly about "luck", eh? Then I suppose we can just write off the Nucks march to the finals a few years back as "luck."

VCR's performance in the playoffs has been dismal over the last two years. And, I'm willing to bet that it will be dismal again this year - because the fundamental problems remain.

Good teams win consistently in the playoffs. That's not not just about "luck and momentum." There are always teams that sneak in, like the Oilers, Flames, etc. But, the top tier teams make frequent runs and the teams that just don't have the horses, like the Nucks, continually flame out.
The LA Kings made a hail Mary coaching change at the end of the season and got into the playoffs by ONE game. If that doesn't tell you its about luck and momentum then I dont know what will.

You talk like the Canucks are the Sharks. The Sharks have never won a conference final. Yet some Oilers team that couldn't win a divisional, beats them in 2006.

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09-27-2013, 09:34 PM
  #105
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I hate Bieksa and his fugly-ass face. I also hate Vancouver and wish the Sedins get deported while the team gets regulated to Mexico City.

That having been said, saying Bieksa is not a top-pairing dman is hogwash. There are not sixty NHL defenders better than him. I wouldn't want him playing the most minutes on my team in any situation, but I wouldn't want to trade him in his prime (or close to it) for the possibility of a 20-year old being better in the vague future.

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09-27-2013, 09:53 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Lord Flacko View Post
No you couldn't look what you did to RNH
Hahahahahahaha

Seriously your comment is terrible and you clearly know nothing about hockey in general.

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09-27-2013, 10:11 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
The Nucks have managed a grand total of one playoff win in the last two seasons, and got nicely swept last season by a team that didn't even make the conference finals.

Are you seriously not going to see that as a major failure and a "crash and burn?"

And,I would take Garrison over Bieksa anyday.
You are vastly underestimating Bieksa. Sure, he is prone to more gaffs than preferable, but this is a guy who in a bad year was on pace to score 14 goals and 14 assists. Additionally, he was injured throughout a decent portion of it. In a five year span, with that as his worst performance. He ought to be given credit.

Bieksa's issues are consistency and extremes. When he is bad, he's bad. In comparison, when he's good, he is a terrific top four defenseman and formed one of the best shutdown pairings in the west.

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09-27-2013, 10:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
I hate Bieksa and his fugly-ass face. I also hate Vancouver and wish the Sedins get deported while the team gets regulated to Mexico City.

That having been said, saying Bieksa is not a top-pairing dman is hogwash. There are not sixty NHL defenders better than him. I wouldn't want him playing the most minutes on my team in any situation, but I wouldn't want to trade him in his prime (or close to it) for the possibility of a 20-year old being better in the vague future.
Uhmm....there you have it folks?

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09-27-2013, 10:46 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
I hate Bieksa and his fugly-ass face. I also hate Vancouver and wish the Sedins get deported while the team gets regulated to Mexico City.

That having been said, saying Bieksa is not a top-pairing dman is hogwash. There are not sixty NHL defenders better than him. I wouldn't want him playing the most minutes on my team in any situation, but I wouldn't want to trade him in his prime (or close to it) for the possibility of a 20-year old being better in the vague future.
A well reasoned response on HF. As elusive as the mighty Sasquatch.

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09-27-2013, 11:41 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by settinguptheplay View Post
There is nothing more annoying than this!

Where did you pick up your crystal ball? I know many people who have them but they are wrong as often as they are right. What makes your crystal ball so superior that even the scouts/GM's of the NHL cannot say for certain where a player will be in 2 years.
I'll try not to be rude here, but is the concept of potential alien to you?

Most media, scouts, and hockey personnel in the Oiler organization feel that way about Oscar Klefbom.

It's how potential works. Based on Klefbom's potential, I would not trade him for Bieksa, even though Bieksa would make the oilers better today. It's a gamble, yes, but that's what it's all about.

I mean why WOULDN'T you trade Bo Horvat for Mike Brown? Horvat hasn't even played an NHL game and there's NO GUARANTEE he's better than Brown!

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09-27-2013, 11:44 PM
  #111
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Not a chance on gods green earth the Canucks even look at a deal like this. One of the worst proposals I've ever seen.

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09-28-2013, 12:06 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by ChaoticOrange View Post
I'll try not to be rude here, but is the concept of potential alien to you?

Most media, scouts, and hockey personnel in the Oiler organization feel that way about Oscar Klefbom.

It's how potential works. Based on Klefbom's potential, I would not trade him for Bieksa, even though Bieksa would make the oilers better today. It's a gamble, yes, but that's what it's all about.

I mean why WOULDN'T you trade Bo Horvat for Mike Brown? Horvat hasn't even played an NHL game and there's NO GUARANTEE he's better than Brown!
This is the worse counter I've seen lately. A 4th line scrub who washed out of this team already for the best prospect we've had since the Sedins. Brown wouldn't even make this roster, with Sestito and Weise doing his job admirably. Bieksa would get top pairing minutes.

The easiest way to lose an argument is to overstate it.

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09-28-2013, 12:13 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
This is the worse counter I've seen lately. A 4th line scrub who washed out of this team already for the best prospect we've had since the Sedins. Brown wouldn't even make this roster, with Sestito and Weise doing his job admirably. Bieksa would get top pairing minutes.

The easiest way to lose an argument is to overstate it.
See it how you will.

I think Klefbom's ceiling is higher than anything Bieksa has ever touched. At worst Klefbom should be a top 4 defenceman. Why trade him? Especially for an area of (relative) strength?

I'd trade him for Schnei...oh wait.

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09-28-2013, 12:15 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ChaoticOrange View Post
I'll try not to be rude here, but is the concept of potential alien to you?

Most media, scouts, and hockey personnel in the Oiler organization feel that way about Oscar Klefbom.

It's how potential works. Based on Klefbom's potential, I would not trade him for Bieksa, even though Bieksa would make the oilers better today. It's a gamble, yes, but that's what it's all about.

I mean why WOULDN'T you trade Bo Horvat for Mike Brown? Horvat hasn't even played an NHL game and there's NO GUARANTEE he's better than Brown!

That comparo does not work my friend...

Eberle for Shinkeruk would be the comparo if you insist.

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09-28-2013, 12:18 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by ChaoticOrange View Post
See it how you will.

I think Klefbom's ceiling is higher than anything Bieksa has ever touched. At worst Klefbom should be a top 4 defenceman. Why trade him? Especially for an area of (relative) strength?

I'd trade him for Schnei...oh wait.
The potential, according to you, to be a top four, even a high end top four, defender is a risk for us, when we have that right here.

As for Schneider, we got a much better offer in my books.

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09-28-2013, 12:19 AM
  #116
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That comparo does not work my friend...

Eberle for Shinkeruk would be the comparo if you insist.
You seem civil and articulate - refreshing in a Canucks fan! :wink:

The comparison is a tool my friend. It's supposed to be ridiculous.

There are some...shall we say...blunt instruments about? Sometimes you need to swat a fly with a Buick to get your point across.

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09-28-2013, 12:21 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ChaoticOrange View Post
Said everything perfectly. The fact that I hate the air Bieksa breathes means he's probably worth it. Plus he has a stupid punchable face.

That said oilers wouldn't consider a trade like this for 2 years, and by then Klefbom is more valuable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoticOrange View Post
I'll try not to be rude here, but is the concept of potential alien to you?

Most media, scouts, and hockey personnel in the Oiler organization feel that way about Oscar Klefbom.

It's how potential works. Based on Klefbom's potential, I would not trade him for Bieksa, even though Bieksa would make the oilers better today. It's a gamble, yes, but that's what it's all about.

I mean why WOULDN'T you trade Bo Horvat for Mike Brown? Horvat hasn't even played an NHL game and there's NO GUARANTEE he's better than Brown!
Oh don't worry about being rude. Worry more about your inability to understand the words you yourself wrote.

What part of the bolded says anything about potential? You made no claim about Klefblom potentially being better in 2 years. You wrote explicitly that Klefbom will be more valuable in 2 years. So again I ask. What criteria are you using to determine that Klefbom will be more valuable? What has he done in the NHL to support your claim?

So apparently most media, scouts and hockey personnel support your claim. Care to link even 1 article that claims Klefbom will have X value in 2 years? Can you show me 1 article that guarantees that Klefbom will even be in the NHL in 2 years?

And you are right. I cannot nor would I make the claim that Horvat will be better than Mike Brown. But then you are comparing a 4th line tough guy who has been passed around the NHL to a top 4 (top shutdown) Dman. Do you really see Mike Brown and Kevin Bieksa having similar career paths?

I am not easily fooled by your moving of goalposts and deflections.

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09-28-2013, 12:22 AM
  #118
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The potential, according to you, to be a top four, even a high end top four, defender is a risk for us, when we have that right here.

As for Schneider, we got a much better offer in my books.
You also allegedly had a much, MUCH better offer from EDM at the draft, but division rivals etc.

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09-28-2013, 12:36 AM
  #119
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Oh don't worry about being rude. Worry more about your inability to understand the words you yourself wrote.

What part of the bolded says anything about potential? You made no claim about Klefblom potentially being better in 2 years. You wrote explicitly that Klefbom will be more valuable in 2 years. So again I ask. What criteria are you using to determine that Klefbom will be more valuable? What has he done in the NHL to support your claim?

So apparently most media, scouts and hockey personnel support your claim. Care to link even 1 article that claims Klefbom will have X value in 2 years? Can you show me 1 article that guarantees that Klefbom will even be in the NHL in 2 years?

And you are right. I cannot nor would I make the claim that Horvat will be better than Mike Brown. But then you are comparing a 4th line tough guy who has been passed around the NHL to a top 4 (top shutdown) Dman. Do you really see Mike Brown and Kevin Bieksa having similar career paths?

I am not easily fooled by your moving of goalposts and deflections.
An aging, expensive Top 4 defenceman that, while making Edmonton better, we A) do not overly need and B) do not really want. Edmonton needs bolstering in its bottom 6 and decent goaltending prospects far more then it needs more defencemen.

Your points on potential and value are completely ridiculous and you seem more unwilling than unable to understand. Prospects are an inexact science. There is no way to say Klefbom will be rated an 86 compared to Bieksa's 83, real life isn't EA sports. I said VALUABLE very deliberately, because, again, I don't know for a fact that he will be better, but most people in the oiler organization are VERY high on Klefbom. It would take a significant overpay to get him and Bieksa doesn't get it done. We signed Ference to hopefully fill that role.

I could, if I cared to, link to any number of articles by quite a few different guys all very high on Klefbom, but what's the point? They'll just be dismissed as oiler homers anyway.

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09-28-2013, 12:40 AM
  #120
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You also allegedly had a much, MUCH better offer from EDM at the draft, but division rivals etc.
8th overall (one step up, to take the same piece in Horvat...our guys LOVED him), and which other pieces? I've heard everything from Klefbom to a 2nd to Dubnyk.

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09-28-2013, 12:46 AM
  #121
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8th overall (one step up, to take the same piece in Horvat...our guys LOVED him), and which other pieces? I've heard everything from Klefbom to a 2nd to Dubnyk.
I've heard the same, I know the 1st and 2nd were on the table. I think Gillis asked for 1st and Klefbom.

The Oilers held the 7th pick also.

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09-28-2013, 12:50 AM
  #122
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More deflection....

You said Klefbom will be more valuable. Please show me how you can know this with absolute certainty. Stop changing the subject. No one has brought up EA sports other than you. No one mentioned an 86 or an 83 except you. Do not put words into my mouth. Try to answer the question asked of you.

I don't care that there are articles about Klefbom's potential. I went over the potential deflection with my last post. Why continue to bring it up. I am fully aware of what potential is but fact is not all players reach their potential. Despite how many experts claim what a particular players NHL potential is many fail to achieve it. Or are you trying to say that all players reach their expected potential? And if not why are we so certain about Klefbom? Then you say that prospects are an inexact science at the same time saying with certainty that a prospect will have more value in 2 years than an established NHL dman.

And on what planet is 4.6m a year expensive for a top 4 dman? You are all over the map!

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09-28-2013, 01:03 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by settinguptheplay View Post
blah blah indignant ramble blah peremptory demands blah
I answered your question. Several
times in fact. I don't KNOW Klefbom will be better. NO ONE DOES. He could (god forbid) shatter his femur tomorrow or decide he wants to pursue a career in classical violin. Most people in the Oiler org (and quite a few outside it) think that Klefbom will be a great NHL defenceman. Seeing him play hasn't led me to think otherwise. He has all the makings of a very complete NHL defenceman. Potential isn't a sure thing but I see no reason he isn't based on the games I've seen him in and the analysis I've read.

I do hate to repeat myself so maybe READ this time.

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09-28-2013, 01:04 AM
  #124
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I've heard the same, I know the 1st and 2nd were on the table. I think Gillis asked for 1st and Klefbom.

The Oilers held the 7th pick also.
Oh yeah...Buffalo had 8...my bad. Still, we'd have gotten the same player, and the second is a small price to pay to have Schneider not play against us 6 or more times a season.

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09-28-2013, 01:11 AM
  #125
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Oh yeah...Buffalo had 8...my bad. Still, we'd have gotten the same player, and the second is a small price to pay to have Schneider not play against us 6 or more times a season.
Oh I completely agree. I hate Gillis for it but it was absolutely the right move

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