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Is there a historical comparison for PK Subban?

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Old
09-15-2013, 01:44 AM
  #101
GuineaPig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Bear View Post
12 ES / 26 PP
Subban's more Carlyle than Carlyle was
It was also a shortened season. There's absolutely no guarantee that Subban's point splits would have continued like that, and it probably would not have. Subban's much too dangerous a player to have continued scoring at that rate at ES, and the Habs' powerplay would've likely faltered as well.

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09-15-2013, 09:35 AM
  #102
MXD
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
It was also a shortened season. There's absolutely no guarantee that Subban's point splits would have continued like that, and it probably would not have. Subban's much too dangerous a player to have continued scoring at that rate at ES, and the Habs' powerplay would've likely faltered as well.
Here's something that makes sense!

One thing though : Subban is much better defensively than offensively (5 on 5) and thus, is not that much of a scoring threat at 5 on 5.

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Old
09-15-2013, 10:03 AM
  #103
MadArcand
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The number of Norris winners in the HHOF is a lot longer than the number who are not in it.

Why wouldn't a young Norris winner be "on the radar?"
That's one hell of a long range radar you got there.

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09-15-2013, 02:59 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
His splits with Boullion are as a sheltered player, his splits with Gorges are as a shutdown D. Matchup reports on LeftWingLock confirm this. Unfortunately, there's no way to further break them down by month.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/show...012-13&sit=5v5

Playing against opposing top lines, Subban was below his season average as a possession forward, and a minus player (kind of kills the "he always got better with more responsibility" narrative, huh?). His Norris win was a perfect storm of small sample size, inflated numbers from his time as a depth player, and a lazy, biased pool of voters.
You were saying?

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09-15-2013, 03:18 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Maybe in terms of agitation, but Chelios was always better defensively than he was offensively even when he was putting up good numbers.

Maybe I haven't watched enough recent Montreal games, but isn't Subban more offensive than defensive?
Yeah I would agree. Certain aspects you can probably compare (agitation, good offense), but overall the comparison is a bit off I think. Take away some of Cheli's defensive abilities and overall meanness, and add some more offensive talent then its closer.

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09-16-2013, 12:37 PM
  #106
struckbyaparkedcar
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
That's not really the case.

First, Gorges-Subban still put up elite level puck possession numbers in that shutdown role. Just not completely absurd ones like he did in other situations.

Secondly, he didn't just play with Gorges in the later season, there was also a significant chuck of time with Markov and that pairing crushed it.
Five games is a significant chunk of time?

That pairing put up insane figures, but also completely unsustainable ones (like not being scored on at ES) in games that all came after the Habs had clinched a playoff spot. Also, that pairing was used as the ES shutdown pairing in only 3/5ths of those contests.

Quote:
Thirdly, Montreal spent a very unusual amount of time playing with the lead in 2013, which skews the puck possession downward. With Gorges and the score tied he was playing shutdown minutes with a 57% Corsi percentage. That is dominant level of play.
You still don't want to bring up what actually happened in those minutes, which was Suter being scored on less, being on the ice for more goals, and scoring more points, in time and a half more sample size.

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Fourthly, Corsi isn't the only way to look at possession. If you check the Fenwick results he was doing even better. He put a score-tied Fenwick% of 64.1%. That is just dominant, its essential tied for the highest recorded in the past 6 seasons for a major minutes defenseman. His score-tied pure shots for and against percentage was the highest in 6 years by a fair margin at 65.6%. Chew on that for a second, the Habs literally got about twice as many shots as the other team with Subban on the ice in 2013 when the score was tied. This suddenly explains very easily how they managed to get twice the goals as the other side 5 on 5 when they had Subban on the ice. This is in the context of a team that was just somewhat above average on the season when Subban wasn't playing.
Aside from his dominant five game run with Markov (which regressed to the mean in the playoffs both from a goal-generating and goal-preventing standpoint, despite still being an obscene possession pairing), the Habs outscored the opponents 2-1 with Subban because he was sheltered from top checkers and scorers with Bouillon and the Galchenyuk line. That's the sample size primarily driving his +/- stats, because it's 3x as long as his time with Markov.

And I don't understand how you can full-stop at "his score-tied pure shots for and against percentage was the highest in 6 years by a fair margin at 65.6%" without taking into account that his sample size as a "major minutes defenseman" is 25% of every season that isn't this one, and roughly half of every other top pairing guy in 2013.

Of course, when you see a number you don't like, like how he was a minus player with Gorges:
Quote:
Being a minus with Gorges was pretty clearly an artifact of small numbers, plus the tendency to use that as a defensive duo while not using Gorges in offensive situations in favour of Markov.
You readily invoke "small sample size," even though it's the longest sample size PK has with any skater on his team, and it's the longest by far of Subban's performance in a Norris role.

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Old
09-28-2013, 10:43 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm bumping this almost 2 year old thread now because I'm curious to know what people think now that Subban has won his (controversial) Norris.

Just keep it clean.
Wow. Good memory.

I started this thread, and didn't even remember it.

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