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Bergevin needs to reinfornce the defense a.s.a.p.

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Old
09-28-2013, 11:29 AM
  #376
impudent_lowlife
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"A scoring chance is defined as a clear play directed toward the opposing net from a dangerous scoring area - loosely defined as the top of the circle in and inside the faceoff dots (nicknamed the Home Plate)."

"Scoring chances are generated through zone time, and goals come from scoring chances." The Habs are a top-10 possession team and, more often than not, they out-chance their opposition. They, as a team, get into the dirty areas - the Home Plate.

http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/11/1...hy-they-matter

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09-28-2013, 11:37 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Nobody in their right mind could look at

Markov-Diaz
Gorges-Subban

..and say that they are reassured, and feel that we have a great defense. No way can people say something like that. Great defense means to play all the styles needed to be effective. This is the top 4 people. An aging Markov, a so-so Diaz and a Gorges who it might be too much to ask to be a top 4 now. Yes, we have Subban, so I guess playing him 30 minutes a game might strengthen that D....but aside from that, it sure would have needed reinforcement.
The Subban-Gorges pairing is fine but Markov-Diaz is too soft, IMO. Murray looks to be a pylon but maybe he can rejuvenate his career. Tinordi might be the answer to the Markov pairing.

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09-28-2013, 11:39 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
"A scoring chance is defined as a clear play directed toward the opposing net from a dangerous scoring area - loosely defined as the top of the circle in and inside the faceoff dots (nicknamed the Home Plate)."

"Scoring chances are generated through zone time, and goals come from scoring chances." The Habs are a top-10 possession team and, more often than not, they out-chance their opposition. They, as a team, get into the dirty areas - the Home Plate.

http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/11/1...hy-they-matter
Anyone watching this team knows this isn't true. Shots from in close... sure. But we don't put guys in front the net and screen. Gallagher does this, that's it. He's the only guy who plays a consistent 'dirty game' and again... he's small.

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09-28-2013, 11:44 AM
  #379
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How about goals scored in the postseason? There's a stat that you can use right?

They show up in the totals in the playoffs where we haven't been particularly great at scoring over the years. The refs put their whistles away and we get smoked. Why? Because we don't go to the net... there are the odd years where we've done well but by and large we get crushed. Then we walk away and talk about how hot the opposing goalie was...

As for finding a stat that suggests that the Habs do/do-not crash the net... no stat exists. Which is exactly my point. You can't capture everything with stats in hockey, it is a fluid game that is much harder to quantify than baseball. NO this doesn't mean we should ignore all the stats but to sit there and say that we're 100% fine on the back end is ludicrous. And it's ludicrous to sit there and pretend we don't have any issues up front either.

If you look at my posts in recent years they've become increasingly optimistic by the way. I do think that we're on the right track. But we're ignoring an important aspect of the game and our teams are too one dimensional.
That's why I said find one game that supports your argument, you can't. One tape. Five game sample sizes vs 40-50 game sample sizes, hmm, what is more reliable? Us losing != we didn't crash the net, we didn't clear the crease, the game is much bigger than this lol.

So, let me get the logic here. Our PK sucks, because we have no defenders to clear the net, however, our PP was awesome even though we had no one crashing the net? I could maybe get on board here if your arguments even made sense, but they don't. I shouldn't have to point out how absurd this argument is. The grass is always greener, I suppose.

Our pp was very successful, no net crashers, it would seem then that crashing the net is not a pre-req for having a good PP, so how did you conclude, not having crease clearers was the primary reason for our lousy PK and not the misuse change in system? IT seems you pulled it out of thin-air and I should believe you simply because you say so?

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09-28-2013, 11:48 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Nobody in their right mind could look at

Markov-Diaz
Gorges-Subban

..and say that they are reassured, and feel that we have a great defense. No way can people say something like that. Great defense means to play all the styles needed to be effective. This is the top 4 people. An aging Markov, a so-so Diaz and a Gorges who it might be too much to ask to be a top 4 now. Yes, we have Subban, so I guess playing him 30 minutes a game might strengthen that D....but aside from that, it sure would have needed reinforcement.
Very solid top 4 in my opinion. One of the best. A Norris trophy winner, that aging markov was 4th in all defensemen in scoring, Diaz is a capable puck mover and gorges compliments Subban greatly. Having a Norris trophy winner and a top 4 dman in points in luxury only we have.

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09-28-2013, 11:55 AM
  #381
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Very solid top 4 in my opinion. One of the best. A Norris trophy winner, that aging markov was 4th in all defensemen in scoring, Diaz is a capable puck mover and gorges compliments Subban greatly. Having a Norris trophy winner and a top 4 dman in points in luxury only we have.
3 out of 4 that can totally be wiped out the face of ice based on their non-physicality. "Aging" means, not what he gave us in the past, but what he'll be able to give us in the present and near future that still remains to be seen based on his not-so-distant past injuries. That the last time he played an almost full schedule, was in 2008-2009. A Diaz, that capable puck mover, that would be traded right now, and nobody would care or almost.

So yes, if everybody play up to their potential and to their best, are able to not be injured, and are intelligent and wise enough to avoid being hit and are able to deal with the physical game played against them, so yes, we've got a fantastic top 4. Reality seems to think that any wise teams won't let those guys deal with it. That if those teams are intelligent, the forecheck will be intense on them. We'll see how they handle it. No need to tell me that we have a Norris winner, he would not have won that trophy and still be elite. Yet, he doesn't play 60 minutes.

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09-28-2013, 12:02 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
3 out of 4 that can totally be wiped out the face of ice based on their non-physicality. "Aging" means, not what he gave us in the past, but what he'll be able to give us in the present and near future that still remains to be seen based on his not-so-distant past injuries. That the last time he played an almost full schedule, was in 2008-2009. A Diaz, that capable puck mover, that would be traded right now, and nobody would care or almost.

So yes, if everybody play up to their potential and to their best, are able to not be injured, and are intelligent and wise enough to avoid being hit and are able to deal with the physical game played against them, so yes, we've got a fantastic top 4. Reality seems to think that any wise teams won't let those guys deal with it. That if those teams are intelligent, the forecheck will be intense on them. We'll see how they handle it. No need to tell me that we have a Norris winner, he would not have won that trophy and still be elite. Yet, he doesn't play 60 minutes.
Every team in the league has question marks, the fact markov was top 5 in points as a shell of his old self bodes well for us. The accelerated schedule also likely hurt markov, plus therrien leaned on him way too much.

As far as diaz being traded and no1 missing him, that says more about the posters than it does diaz. Agreed, that without the norris subban was still great, I think you're pointing out the obvious here.

I don't see the risk, sure diaz might not be the ideal top 4 guy, but when you have two top tier dman like subban/markov, that concern isn't as great.

If teams over-pressure our puck movers they'll be caught out of position, i'm not worried about that too much.

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09-28-2013, 12:09 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Anyone watching this team knows this isn't true. Shots from in close... sure. But we don't put guys in front the net and screen. Gallagher does this, that's it. He's the only guy who plays a consistent 'dirty game' and again... he's small.
That's right, fancy-stat guys don't watch games.

You want the Habs to have Tim Kerr planted in a 2-foot radius around the crease. That is your recipe for success? The Flyers had some good years but they never won a cup with Kerr.

Scoring comes from quality chances in the home-plate area - not just a 2-foot radius around the net.

Maybe McCarron will be that player but until then where's this mythical behemoth with the soft hands going to come from? Bergevin going to pull him out of his ***?

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09-28-2013, 12:14 PM
  #384
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That's right, fancy-stat guys don't watch games.

You want the Habs to have Tim Kerr planted in a 2-foot radius around the crease. That is your recipe for success? The Flyers had some good years but they never won a cup with Kerr.
Only because he was hurt all the time. If they have him in 1987, they win the cup. They took Edmonton to seven games without him. They had Tocchet but Kerr was awesome. 8 goals in 12 games that year btw.
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Scoring comes from quality chances in the home-plate area - not just a 2-foot radius around the net.

Maybe McCarron will be that player but until then where's this mythical behemoth with the soft hands going to come from? Bergevin going to pull him out of his ***?
Where did I say it does? Of course you won't win with only those guys... never said you would. But they sure are nice to have in your lineup and they make a huge difference. You don't think Galchenyuk or Subban are going to have an easier time scoring with the opposing goalie and D fighting off screens? Of course they will.

Let me ask you, do you like watching Gallagher play? What is it about his game that you like? Don't you think we could use more of that in our lineup? What's wrong with that?


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 09-28-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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09-28-2013, 01:16 PM
  #385
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I find that Markov and Murray skating is looking better this season, so I'm looking forward to seeing this defense corps.

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09-28-2013, 01:23 PM
  #386
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We have a very very good top6 defenceman when Emelin come back... chill out!

Gorges-Subban
Markov-Emelin
Tinordi-Diaz

Murray-Bouillon

Drewiske in Hamilton

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09-28-2013, 01:26 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by EveryDay View Post
We have a very very good top6 defenceman when Emelin come back... chill out!

Gorges-Subban
Markov-Emelin
Tinordi-Diaz

Murray-Bouillon

Drewiske in Hamilton
You gotta like this
Sub in Murray for the tougher inter-conference games where you need grit OR he's the 1st one in for injury

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09-28-2013, 01:59 PM
  #388
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I'm not as agressive or harsh as you are, but I kinda agree with you up to a point.

I'm ready to give another full year to Bergevin (season and offseason), but to me, the honeymoon is over and he must starts answering for his moves and non-moves.

Like I wrote higher, Habs need a true #2 d-man in the Seabrook mold, and nothing like it is developping in Hamilton, and there's none in the UFA market. So it's maybe time for Bergevin to let go a beloved youngster to trade for such a valuable asset. I'm not saying it's easy, but at one point, a GM has to make a bold move that fix what needs to be fixed. And I believe that "point" will be reached whithing the next 12 months.
I think too many Habs fans are too passionate about the team. Talk about a fan base that over reacts to everything. And these same fans will wonder why it's so hard for management to find players willing to play here.

You guys do realize that signing this guy or that guy isn't as easy as just calling his agent and saying "we'd like to sign him at this value, when can he be here" right? Before any serious investment of time from a team or an agent goes anywhere close to negotiating, do you not think MB, or any GM for that matter, doesn't ask an agent if that player would even entertain the thought of playing for this team? Highest taxes, craziest media, and most dramatic and flip-flopping fan base in all pro sports, and everything is in French to top it off.

It doesn't matter how many cups, and how historic, and how much you love this team, players are not flocking to play in Montreal like they would in TO, NYR, DET etc... That's the simple truth.

So all you armchair GM's and coaches ready to throw management under a bus because in 1.5 seasons we haven't won a cup under new management are simply setting your expectations too high, and you will continuously be disappointed.

Most GM's have a 5 yr plan, this allows them time to fix or change things they inherited from previous management, and steer the ship in the direction they want to go, this doesn't happen in 2 or 3 years, and throwing money at rentals and overpaying for talent won't solve anything.

Myself I think MB is doing a fine job, he wants to develop our own talent, let them know that roster spots can be available if you work your ***** off (and not plugged by short term fixes) that you will be rewarded. He gives them hope, and that keeps them hungry. Look at our prospect pool, and look at the contracts that will need to be replaced over the next 2-3 years, and tell me you aren't excited about what's coming and what the Habs will be in about 2 years.

MB is trying to restore the Habs to their former glory and reputation IMHO. The past 15 years or so this team has been poorly run, prospects improperly handled and burdened with high expectations and setup for failure because management let the crazy media and whiny drama fanbase influence their decision making leading to knee jerk reactions and not so great reputation with players around the league based on how previous players were managed and handled.

This new team have let players know that the team comes first, to respect your fans, that if you are drafted by us and work hard we will give you the opportunity to play, have created new positions in management whose sole purpose is to be available for the younger players and prospects, and based on the past year and a half, are only interested in adding guys with character and who are well respected around the league. Are there missing links and areas that need work, of course, and there always will be, every team has issues. This fan-base just needs to have patience and wait to see where we are 2 yrs from now.

Relax folks.

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09-28-2013, 02:09 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Let me ask you, do you like watching Gallagher play? What is it about his game that you like? Don't you think we could use more of that in our lineup? What's wrong with that?
Gallagher's not the only player on the Habs with a nose for the net. Take a look, the stats don't lie:

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...scored-in-2013

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09-28-2013, 02:19 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Gallagher's not the only player on the Habs with a nose for the net. Take a look, the stats don't lie:

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...scored-in-2013
Gallagher is the only guy who consistently goes to the net and tries to screen the goalie. There is no stat for this and again, this shows up in the playoffs.

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09-28-2013, 02:20 PM
  #391
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Anyone watching this team knows this isn't true. Shots from in close... sure. But we don't put guys in front the net and screen. Gallagher does this, that's it. He's the only guy who plays a consistent 'dirty game' and again... he's small.
We were third in scoring last year.

We had to be doing something right because we sure were getting our fair share of scoring chances and converting a reasonable percentage of them.

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09-28-2013, 02:22 PM
  #392
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We were third in scoring last year.

We had to be doing something right because we sure were converting a reasonable percentage of our scoring chances.
Of course... I'm not saying otherwise. I think we have a good team and I think it needs a few pieces here and there and we need to let our younger players develop.

Put in a big legit shutdown guy and Morrow instead of Briere and Murray and I think we'd be exponentially better. I'm not saying we're a bad team dude. We do a lot of things right and we've got some great talent. Our problem is that we're too one dimensional.

And we didn't convert our scoring chances in the playoffs. And that's usually the case with us. It's been that way for a long time. We get chances, don't score and then talk about how great the other goalie was and how unlucky we were.

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09-28-2013, 04:36 PM
  #393
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And we didn't convert our scoring chances in the playoffs. And that's usually the case with us. It's been that way for a long time. We get chances, don't score and then talk about how great the other goalie was and how unlucky we were.
Yes, because that's how hockey works.

And look, it actually works the other way sometimes, too. Remember the Habs beating Washington and Pittsburgh in 2010? What happened then, the Habs' big forwards went to the net and their hulking D prevented the tiny Capitals and Penguins forwards from setting up screens?

No, of course not. What happened was they got lucky. They beat those teams the same way they got beat by Ottawa in 2013 and Philly in 2008.

Never mind the numbers. If people would get that in their heads, that a game played on a rapidly-degrading slippery surface with a bouncing rubber puck is subject to a ton of random variation that's out of both teams' control, hockey discourse could take a huge step forward. And maybe we'd get over this plague of insisting every loss is the result of some flaw despite all evidence to the contary, from lack of size to "not wanting it enough".

Hockey is a game where you can roundly outplay the other team and still lose the game. It's not because of some flaw that you have to stretch and make things up to argue. It's the nature of hockey. It's still better to outplay the other guys because it gives you better odds, but we need to stop pretending the better team wins every game because that's just not how the game works.

The Habs' D is fine. Of course it could use an upgrade, like any club's, but it's hardly a terrible unit compared to the rest of the league.

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09-28-2013, 04:43 PM
  #394
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We have a very very good top6 defenceman when Emelin come back... chill out!

Gorges-Subban
Markov-Emelin
Tinordi-Diaz

Murray-Bouillon

Drewiske in Hamilton
Murray didn't sign here as a free agent to sit in the stands. Guaranteed ! Diaz will be set aside slowly, he had a terrible camp. Looked weak and clueless.

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09-28-2013, 04:47 PM
  #395
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Murray didn't sign here as a free agent to sit in the stands. Guaranteed !
That might be the plan, but unfortunately, Murray's game has deteriorated to the point where the stands are the best place for him. We have to hope the Habs' brass quickly recognizes this, and swallows their pride. Consider this a bit of a test for them, though signing Murray in the first place wasn't very encouraging.

Diaz is not going anywhere. He's better than Murray, better than Bouillon, and he's right-handed, which the Habs have a shortage of.

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09-28-2013, 04:53 PM
  #396
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That might be the plan, but unfortunately, Murray's game has deteriorated to the point where the stands are the best place for him. We have to hope the Habs' brass quickly recognizes this, and swallows their pride. Consider this a bit of a test for them, though signing Murray in the first place wasn't very encouraging.

Diaz is not going anywhere. He's better than Murray, better than Bouillon, and he's right-handed, which the Habs have a shortage of.
Agree to disagree, Diaz is Atrocious. And will be in the stands within 10 games.
Murray will be number 6 D. You saw that his game has diminished in the 1 game he played during the preseason ??? And don't bring up last year in Pitts, it is well documented that he was way out of shape and overweight not having practised at all before the shortened season. Give him a chance to show where he is at now. And i will take MB opinion way before yours ( no offense ) or any other HF poster.


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09-28-2013, 05:20 PM
  #397
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don't bring up last year in Pitts, it is well documented that he was way out of shape and overweight not having practised at all before the shortened season.
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You saw that his game has diminished in the 1 game he played during the preseason ???
Errrr......

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09-28-2013, 05:26 PM
  #398
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Errrr......
Must have troubles reading right ?
First statement, last year. Second statement this year.

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09-28-2013, 05:41 PM
  #399
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Yes, because that's how hockey works.
Your odds of scoring are going to go up if you screen the goalie. Your odds of stopping it will go down if you don't clear the net. We don't do either.
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And look, it actually works the other way sometimes, too. Remember the Habs beating Washington and Pittsburgh in 2010? What happened then, the Habs' big forwards went to the net and their hulking D prevented the tiny Capitals and Penguins forwards from setting up screens?

No, of course not. What happened was they got lucky. They beat those teams the same way they got beat by Ottawa in 2013 and Philly in 2008.
I remember it clearly, and yeah we got lucky, every shot went in. However, Washington (if you remember) peppered us with shots. They (much like us) were a great skating team but they didn't screen either.

Halak was super wicked but we helped him out on the back end because we had a veteran squad who could do it and the Caps didn't park somebody in front of us either.
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Never mind the numbers. If people would get that in their heads, that a game played on a rapidly-degrading slippery surface with a bouncing rubber puck is subject to a ton of random variation that's out of both teams' control, hockey discourse could take a huge step forward. And maybe we'd get over this plague of insisting every loss is the result of some flaw despite all evidence to the contary, from lack of size to "not wanting it enough".

Hockey is a game where you can roundly outplay the other team and still lose the game. It's not because of some flaw that you have to stretch and make things up to argue. It's the nature of hockey. It's still better to outplay the other guys because it gives you better odds, but we need to stop pretending the better team wins every game because that's just not how the game works.
There are other things going on that simply aren't captured by the stats.

Maybe someday somebody will develop a goals allowed through screen stat vs goals allowed that are seen - maybe someday you'll understand this because you only seem to look at stats.

Like I said, hockey is a fluid game and the stats for it are still being developed. Just because the stats don't capture this aspect of the game it doesn't mean that it's not important.

Going to the net and safeguarding your own is important man. No spreadsheet in the world is going to change this. And NO we don't do this well.

Remember us arguing over Scott Gomez? Perfect example.
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The Habs' D is fine. Of course it could use an upgrade, like any club's, but it's hardly a terrible unit compared to the rest of the league.
Who's better Paul Coffey or Ray Bourque? Coffey is better in almost every way offensively but defensively Bourque kicks his butt. We've got a bunch of Paul Coffeys dude (only not near as good) and we're one dimensional.

The Habs D is far from fine. It has serious holes in it and we aren't going anywhere until we either resolve it or one of our guys steps up and plays in the dirty areas where we need them to be.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 09-28-2013 at 05:47 PM.
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09-28-2013, 06:09 PM
  #400
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Lafleurs Guy has spoken: The Habs desperately need Tim Kerr and Chris Pronger clones to win. But due to salary cap considerations how about triple-shifting Parros so he can stand in front the opposition net and play Murray as much as humanly possible.

I've shown, plain and simple, that the Habs score plenty from the dirty areas (the home plate area) and they are quite competent in keeping the puck out of their net.

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