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Bergevin needs to reinfornce the defense a.s.a.p.

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Old
09-28-2013, 06:18 PM
  #401
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
If you watch the series the Habs did drive to the net with success and they did score off the rush. The Habs did out-chance the Sens and they had far better possession numbers. What they didn't have was a goalie with a .960 SV%.
Here is a little refresher.



Look at the shot that Pleks takes on the .960 goalie (That shot was called a scoring chance but you probably could have made that easy save)

Then compare that to the game winning goal. On that goal, you will see a Habs defensemen unable or unwilling to clear the crease.

Lafleur's Guy argument is based in reality, not a stat sheet.

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That's why I said find one game that supports your argument, you can't. One tape. we didn't crash the net, we didn't clear the crease
Look above.

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09-28-2013, 06:42 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Here is a little refresher.



Look at the shot that Pleks takes on the .960 goalie (That shot was called a scoring chance but you probably could have made that easy save)

Then compare that to the game winning goal. On that goal, you will see a Habs defensemen unable or unwilling to clear the crease.

Lafleur's Guy argument is based in reality, not a stat sheet.
Have you never played any organized sports? You have no clue about variables such as chance? That is reality. But you can keep deluding yourself.

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09-28-2013, 06:49 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by drakaar10iemechx2012 View Post
Must have troubles reading right ?
First statement, last year. Second statement this year.
Yes, you said the reason he sucked last year was his lack of preseason work and that we should expect him to be better this year when he has lacked pre-season work.

Ah, but of course my reading comprehension is the problem here...

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09-28-2013, 07:03 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Have you never played any organized sports? You have no clue about variables such as chance? That is reality. But you can keep deluding yourself.
You had a point in the other thread when you ranted the same thing. That video supports what he and LG have been saying, though, so you're out of line here, imo.

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09-28-2013, 07:03 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Have you never played any organized sports? You have no clue about variables such as chance? That is reality. But you can keep deluding yourself.
I agree with most of the points you bring up, but I can't stand this argument. Nobody cares where you played or at what level. I've met many people who can analyze the game quite well without ever having strapped on skates. Then you have geniuses like Mike Milbury or Rejean Houle. Your statement amount to stamping your feet when you're not getting your way.


Other than that, I do enjoy your posts

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09-28-2013, 07:10 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I agree with most of the points you bring up, but I can't stand this argument. Nobody cares where you played or at what level. I've met many people who can analyze the game quite well without ever having strapped on skates. Then you have geniuses like Mike Milbury or Rejean Houle. Your statement amount to stamping your feet when you're not getting your way.


Other than that, I do enjoy your posts
Point taken. It's just a little frustrating that "chance" is given such short thrift here.

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09-28-2013, 07:15 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You had a point in the other thread when you ranted the same thing. That video supports what he and LG have been saying, though, so you're out of line here, imo.
And if I had the time I could produce video that supports my view.

The Habs dominated the Sens in scoring chances and possession. Yet they lost because they didn't have Tom Kerr - that's the gist of LG's argument.

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09-28-2013, 07:16 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I agree with most of the points you bring up, but I can't stand this argument. Nobody cares where you played or at what level. I've met many people who can analyze the game quite well without ever having strapped on skates.
Agreed, but having said that, there are plenty of aspects of the game that non-participants will never truly understand, and sometimes it is blatantly obvious (or amounts to it). Enforcers, don't ya know, are like a video game cheat code, for example, where the same combination of button pushes always gives your team the appropriate "momentum bonus" for the appropriate amount of time in the case of a win, equal and opposite effect for a loss. Lack of an enforcer in the line-up means at least -20% on the online presence/intimidation meter. Three 50-point players with 85 potential (forget about what they bring to a line in terms of style, skill, "tools", etc) will all be 70 point players once their experience reaches level 5, because they'll have time to establish a chemistry rating of at least 8. Etc. Not in those words. You can hear the thinking, though, it's so loud.

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09-28-2013, 07:18 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
And if I had the time I could produce video that supports my view.

The Habs dominated the Sens in scoring chances and possession. Yet they lost because they didn't have Tom Kerr - that's the gist of LG's argument.
You should produce a video of you re-watching the series, and taking a shot every time you hear the words "but Anderson saw it all the way" and "traffic in front on Price". For your recovery weekend, you could do the same game with "but Price saw it all the way" and "traffic in front of Anderson". Each video would still be amusing, but likely for different reasons.

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09-28-2013, 07:22 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Lafleurs Guy has spoken:
It's not just me dude. Tons of very well respected posters here agree with me on this. And it's pretty much universally agreed upon in the hockey world that we're too small and soft a team to realistically compete for a cup.
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
The Habs desperately need Tim Kerr and Chris Pronger clones to win.
If we added those two guys we'd be contenders today - instantly. You seem to think they wouldn't help us? You don't think these guys bring anything to the table? Really?

Hell, I'd settle for guys like Bobby Ryan (who's not even a true power forward) and Braydon Coburn.
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But due to salary cap considerations how about triple-shifting Parros so he can stand in front the opposition net and play Murray as much as humanly possible.
The Bruins do it occasionally with Chara on the PP believe it or not. Park him right in front of the net. Only reason they don't do it more is because his defending in front of his own net already takes such a toll on him, that plus who the hell else do they have to man the point? Their offense isn't that great but in the playoffs they win. They play dirty and cause havoc in the opposing crease.

As for Parros, sure we could do this. Unfortunately he has hands of cement. So it kind of negates the benefits. What I would do (and I've said this before) is tell Bourque to stand in front of the net and nail his ass there. He could play that role.

Also, I'd stop adding smurfs. We've proven over and over again that it doesn't work in the playoffs but here we go doing it again...
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
I've shown, plain and simple, that the Habs score plenty from the dirty areas (the home plate area) and they are quite competent in keeping the puck out of their net.
You still don't get it...

It doesn't matter if you score from the blueline or the dirty areas. What matters is that you've got somebody screening the goalie. If you do, you'll be more successful. I couldn't care less if we score from two feet out or twenty as long as we score. Scoring from in close doesn't mean you had a guy there sitting in front of the net man and that's what I'm talking about.

Secondly, the playoffs are a different bird. We've got lots of skilled players in our lineup but they all play the same style. THAT's the problem. As far as us scoring plenty from those areas... we didn't score a whole lot in the playoffs. If they came from the slot... GREAT! We should go there MORE. Gallagher goes to the net and stays there. That's why everybody loves him... We need more of that in our lineup. No, not every player has to play like this but SOME do. We are missing this dimension and it hurts us.

As for the backend... same thing. With Emelin and Murray out right now we are esp soft back there.

You can show puck possession all you want and chances all you want. Without this dimension in your lineup you aren't going to win cups.

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09-28-2013, 07:33 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
And if I had the time I could produce video that supports my view.

The Habs dominated the Sens in scoring chances and possession. Yet they lost because they didn't have Tom Kerr - that's the gist of LG's argument.
You don't need to be Tim Kerr to go to the net. The Sens didn't have him but they had no fear of doing it to us. Why? Because we don't have anyone back there to stop them.

Not only do we not have a 'Tim Kerr' we don't have a big shutdown guy either. We're losing battles at BOTH ends of the ice.

As for 'chance' well sure... some goals go in that shouldn't. Nobody denies this anymore than anyone has tried to deny that we got tons of chances. But we ALWAYS get tons of chances and we never seem to score in the postseason. We've had the odd year where the pucks go in but we always get stumped by the opposing goalie.

You seem to think I'm dismissing Avanced Stats... I'm not. What I'm saying is that they are not going to tell you everything. Not everything is luck or chance. Sometimes there are underlying causes and anyone who watches us in the playoffs can see this.

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09-28-2013, 07:46 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Your odds of scoring are going to go up if you screen the goalie. Your odds of stopping it will go down if you don't clear the net. We don't do either.

I remember it clearly, and yeah we got lucky, every shot went in. However, Washington (if you remember) peppered us with shots. They (much like us) were a great skating team but they didn't screen either.

Halak was super wicked but we helped him out on the back end because we had a veteran squad who could do it and the Caps didn't park somebody in front of us either.

There are other things going on that simply aren't captured by the stats.

Maybe someday somebody will develop a goals allowed through screen stat vs goals allowed that are seen - maybe someday you'll understand this because you only seem to look at stats.

Like I said, hockey is a fluid game and the stats for it are still being developed. Just because the stats don't capture this aspect of the game it doesn't mean that it's not important.

Going to the net and safeguarding your own is important man. No spreadsheet in the world is going to change this. And NO we don't do this well.

Remember us arguing over Scott Gomez? Perfect example.

Who's better Paul Coffey or Ray Bourque? Coffey is better in almost every way offensively but defensively Bourque kicks his butt. We've got a bunch of Paul Coffeys dude (only not near as good) and we're one dimensional.

The Habs D is far from fine. It has serious holes in it and we aren't going anywhere until we either resolve it or one of our guys steps up and plays in the dirty areas where we need them to be.
Yet, we outscored 90% of the league. Not bad, for a team who's odds have been reduced due to not screening the goalie. . Your perceptions don't match reality.

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09-28-2013, 07:47 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Here is a little refresher.



Look at the shot that Pleks takes on the .960 goalie (That shot was called a scoring chance but you probably could have made that easy save)

Then compare that to the game winning goal. On that goal, you will see a Habs defensemen unable or unwilling to clear the crease.

Lafleur's Guy argument is based in reality, not a stat sheet.



Look above.
Wow you really proved your point in those 6 minutes . I don't need to watch this because this is caveman thinking. Brighten up.

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09-28-2013, 07:48 PM
  #414
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For what it's worth, here's the game tying goal that Price gets hurt on in game 4. We're 30 secs away from tying the series and we let the Sens basically camp on our front porch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZZ8X1zWJbo

Does this dismiss chance or the fact that I think we played mostly well in this series? No. And like I said, Price let some in that maybe shouldn't have gone in, but it underscores a weakness in our game. We aren't able to defend properly when other teams go into our crease and it really hurts us.

We don't know what would've happened if Price could finish the game. Maybe we would've come back and won the series but at the end of the day we didn't protect him nearly the way we should and it's a critical goal that basically changes the face of the series. Not only do they tie the game up (and eventually win) but they knock out our goalie. And this is the Sens man... not exactly a bruising team.

30 seconds away from tying the series and we go and do this... you can't expect to win this way. And again, shot totals or whatever don't mean squat when you let teams do this to you.

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09-28-2013, 07:49 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You had a point in the other thread when you ranted the same thing. That video supports what he and LG have been saying, though, so you're out of line here, imo.
6 minutes hardly proves anything, seriously, are you guys this deluded? Watch another 6 minutes and the opposite will happen.

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09-28-2013, 07:51 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Yet, we outscored 90% of the league. Not bad, for a team who's odds have been reduced due to not screening the goalie. .
In the regular season sure...

And like I've said many times in the past (and you seem to ignore) I think we've got a talented team. I think we've got some top end talent and I don't think we're that far away from contending.

We just need to stop ignoring the crease at both ends.
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Your perceptions don't match reality.
Not in the playoffs.

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09-28-2013, 07:51 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's not just me dude. Tons of very well respected posters here agree with me on this. And it's pretty much universally agreed upon in the hockey world that we're too small and soft a team to realistically compete for a cup.
If we added those two guys we'd be contenders today - instantly. You seem to think they wouldn't help us? You don't think these guys bring anything to the table? Really?

Hell, I'd settle for guys like Bobby Ryan (who's not even a true power forward) and Braydon Coburn.

The Bruins do it occasionally with Chara on the PP believe it or not. Park him right in front of the net. Only reason they don't do it more is because his defending in front of his own net already takes such a toll on him, that plus who the hell else do they have to man the point? Their offense isn't that great but in the playoffs they win. They play dirty and cause havoc in the opposing crease.

As for Parros, sure we could do this. Unfortunately he has hands of cement. So it kind of negates the benefits. What I would do (and I've said this before) is tell Bourque to stand in front of the net and nail his ass there. He could play that role.

Also, I'd stop adding smurfs. We've proven over and over again that it doesn't work in the playoffs but here we go doing it again...

You still don't get it...

It doesn't matter if you score from the blueline or the dirty areas. What matters is that you've got somebody screening the goalie. If you do, you'll be more successful. I couldn't care less if we score from two feet out or twenty as long as we score. Scoring from in close doesn't mean you had a guy there sitting in front of the net man and that's what I'm talking about.

Secondly, the playoffs are a different bird. We've got lots of skilled players in our lineup but they all play the same style. THAT's the problem. As far as us scoring plenty from those areas... we didn't score a whole lot in the playoffs. If they came from the slot... GREAT! We should go there MORE. Gallagher goes to the net and stays there. That's why everybody loves him... We need more of that in our lineup. No, not every player has to play like this but SOME do. We are missing this dimension and it hurts us.

As for the backend... same thing. With Emelin and Murray out right now we are esp soft back there.

You can show puck possession all you want and chances all you want. Without this dimension in your lineup you aren't going to win cups.
If we added any top 6 forward and hof dman we'd be instant contenders, I'd prefer lidstrom over pronger though

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09-28-2013, 07:53 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
In the regular season sure...

And like I've said many times in the past (and you seem to ignore) I think we've got a talented team. I think we've got some top end talent and I don't think we're that far away from contending.

We just need to stop ignoring the crease at both ends.

Not in the playoffs.
Oh, back to the 5 game sample sizes again. I should have expected nothing less. I'd love to meet up with you, grab a beer, watch the series and count each time a player was screening anderson and each time a player was screening price, we'd both need to agree on what that was and be fair about it, you'd be extremely unhappy with the results.

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09-28-2013, 08:11 PM
  #419
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Oh, back to the 5 game sample sizes again. I should have expected nothing less. I'd love to meet up with you, grab a beer, watch the series and count each time a player was screening anderson and each time a player was screening price, we'd both need to agree on what that was and be fair about it, you'd be extremely unhappy with the results.
I've been a Hab fan for a long time and I've been unhappy with the results since the late 90s. Yet I keep hearing how our CORSI is great, how we've got skill (and that's more important than size - and we have to choose one OR the other - for some reason we can't have a balance of both) and now how it doesn't matter if we go to the net or clear the crease it's just all about puck possession.

For some reason though we seem to either miss the playoffs or get sunk in the first round. Must just be bad luck I guess... Still can't believe Gomez wasn't an all-star with that great CORSI he had.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 09-28-2013 at 08:16 PM.
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09-28-2013, 08:14 PM
  #420
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6 minutes hardly proves anything, seriously, are you guys this deluded? Watch another 6 minutes and the opposite will happen.
It's an example though of what happened in that series. There's a weakness in our lineup. Our D is not "100 percent fine."

I'll let the rest of you hash this out now. Only thing I'll say is that I don't think we're that far off and I think we're a good team. I was very disappointed in our offseason moves and I feel like we blew an opportunity to really improve this roster.

I hope that Murray and Tinordi will fill the void but I'm not optimistic. We'll see I guess.

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09-28-2013, 08:22 PM
  #421
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6 minutes hardly proves anything, seriously, are you guys this deluded? Watch another 6 minutes and the opposite will happen.
If someone says "show me a video that proves this happens", and someone provides a video that shows it happening, then it proves it happens, lol. You're young, hip, and understand the phrase "Youtube or it never happened", right? Whether it happens 150 times over the season or 350 times over the season, whether it happens to us more or other teams more, it doesn't matter if it's established that most teams score most of their goals against us that way - problems have to be identified before they can be addressed.

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09-28-2013, 09:20 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If someone says "show me a video that proves this happens", and someone provides a video that shows it happening, then it proves it happens, lol. You're young, hip, and understand the phrase "Youtube or it never happened", right? Whether it happens 150 times over the season or 350 times over the season, whether it happens to us more or other teams more, it doesn't matter if it's established that most teams score most of their goals against us that way - problems have to be identified before they can be addressed.
No one said watch 6 minutes and cherry-pick what you like. It was me the asked that the games be watched in their entirety. This 6 minutes does absolutely nothing to establish anything. Goals sometimes bounce in for


Last edited by habsfanatics: 09-28-2013 at 09:38 PM.
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09-28-2013, 09:34 PM
  #423
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They will be fine.. No need to worry.

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09-28-2013, 09:39 PM
  #424
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Should actually dump everyone and draft McDavid. Then, we'd have a McDavid and McCarron line. We'd just need a third McWinger and we'd, officially, be contenders.

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09-28-2013, 09:49 PM
  #425
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Wow you really proved your point in those 6 minutes . I don't need to watch this because this is caveman thinking. Brighten up.
I didnt prove any point. I simply fulfilled your request.

You wanted a video that showed........and I am quoting your here..... "One tape. we didn't crash the net, we didn't clear the crease".

I simply went to Google and that video was at the top of the list.

In overtime, we did not crash the net and we did not clear the crease and we did not win the game.

There is the reply to your challenge.

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