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Old
09-23-2013, 12:18 PM
  #76
Blue Blooded
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Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
I disagree that he is a 1st liner by any measurable standard....how about points? I see the numbers you posted, and i get the point you are trying to make, but there is no way Carl Hagelin should be considered an elite player.
When you are 34th among forwards in 5v5 points per minute, that is quite clearly 1st line level production 5v5 considering there are 90 players playing on 1st lines around the league. He hasn't been a good PP option, but that has nothing to do with 5v5 play.

I'm calling Hagelin a legit 1st liner 5v5. Nothing more, nothing less.

Hagelin (and Stepan to some extent) is like the inverse of Kreider. Kreider has huge amounts of "observable" talent, but struggles to get anything done on the ice. Hagelin has little "observable" talent, yet his on-ice impact is huge. It is no coincidence that the Ranger line that looks the best on any given night almost always has Hagelin playing on it.

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Old
09-23-2013, 12:31 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
no one's calling Hagelin an elite player, but he also gets very little credit from Ranger fans because he sucks at finishing. Hagelin is a great defensive forward and would move mountains to get to a loose puck, and when he has the puck, he's (to put it nicely) really ****ing hard to knock off of it. His game is perfect for a puck possession style, and remember he was playing injured all year and the playoffs. Personally, to me Hagelin's ceiling is 60 pt defensive winger, I think he could be one of this year's surprises, especially if he can find some kind of goal scoring groove.
I agree his ceiling lies somewhere around 60pts as his game doesn't translate very well to the PP. But if he can score almost 50 5v5 points in a season that would be huge. Only 11 players had 50 or more 5v5 points in 2011-12.

He doesn't suck at finishing even though he's below average. His 5v5 Sh% over the past two seasons (8.54) is comparable to Parise's (8.68), Skinner's (8.33), D. Sedin's (8.68) and a lot better than Callahan's (5.79). Though Callahan would struggle to break 15 goals in a season if he wasn't so ridiculously good around the net on the PP.

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09-23-2013, 12:43 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
I agree his ceiling lies somewhere around 60pts as his game doesn't translate very well to the PP. But if he can score almost 50 5v5 points in a season that would be huge. Only 11 players had 50 or more 5v5 points in 2011-12.

He doesn't suck at finishing even though he's below average. His 5v5 Sh% over the past two seasons (8.54) is comparable to Parise's (8.68), Skinner's (8.33), D. Sedin's (8.68) and a lot better than Callahan's (5.79). Though Callahan would struggle to break 15 goals in a season if he wasn't so ridiculously good around the net on the PP.
60 points in a season would be an outlier for Hagelin. I would think 45-50 point seasons more the norm. He'll have to have good linemates as well. He's more a complimentary player.

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09-23-2013, 12:48 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
60 points in a season would be an outlier for Hagelin. I would think 45-50 point seasons more the norm. He'll have to have good linemates as well. He's more a complimentary player.
Oh indeed, unless he figures out how to play on the PP it is going to be difficult reaching 60p. That's why I see it as his ceiling.

But ~50 points is nowhere near a failure from the 1st line if 45 of those points are 5v5.

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09-27-2013, 08:37 AM
  #80
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Once everyone is healthy, these are the lines I'd like to see

Hagelin/Stepan/Nash
Kreider/Brassard/Zuccarello
Pouliot/Miller/Callahan
Boyle/Moore/Dorsett

Asham

McDonagh/Girardi
Staal/Stralman
Del Zotto/Moore

Falk

Pyatt and Powe to the AHL

Pay Richards to sit at home and play NHL 14 until he can be bought out.

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Old
09-27-2013, 10:18 AM
  #81
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I think Miller is competing for a spot on the wing, primarily with guys like Fast and Kreider. If he makes the lineup, I think it's as a 3rd line winger.

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Old
09-27-2013, 10:58 AM
  #82
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Regular season LU, Step plays soon enough:

Pouliot--Stepan--Nash ... all around talent line
Hagelin--Brassard--Callahan/Fast ... speed + passing. Speed kills
Kreider--Miller--Callahan/Fast ... super speed. Super speed potential to dominate
Boyle/Hrivik--Moore--Dorsett ... great checking/shutdown

Zuccarello -- holds the fort til Hags is ready/traded
Hrivik steps up if Boyle dealt

Asham has been a good solider, and showed improvement in camp. I don't see room, but if room emerges and it is his last year and we can't move him, ok for him to hang w/big club and dress occasional game.

Lindberg deserves to make it, no room this time.

Richards does NOT deserve to be here, must get his ass to Hartford.
If not, he either develops injury --- like a paper cut from a contract -- or something, or we don't dress him. Period. He is a liability, don't want. He took all our $$ which NYR overpaid, ok, but we did that in good faith. If he's unwilling to put team first, let him and anything left of his game rot on the sidelines til he can be amnestied post season, which should have been done this year pre-season.

Would prefer Yogan get some chance somewhere esp. Boyle dealt.

Powe ask 6th, take conditional 7th. Worth more in cap relief. Buh-bye.
Pyatt. Give away. Nothing left. take conditional 7th. Worth more in cap relief. Buh-bye.
Mashinter fine for depth at AHL, but would not turn down deal. Buh-bye.
Bickel, since we are unlikely to get return, ok to keep as emergency reserve at AHL Buh-bye.


D
McD--Girardi
Staal--MDZ
Moore--Stralman

Would like to see MDZ dealt for righty D, possibly w/Boyle or Hags to max the return


Last edited by bernmeister: 09-27-2013 at 05:54 PM. Reason: content clarification
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Old
09-27-2013, 11:18 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Richards does NOT deserve to be here, must get his ass to Hartford.
If not, he either develops injury --- like a paper cut from a contract -- or something, or we don't dress him. Period. He is a liability, don't want. He took all our $$ which NYR overpaid, ok, but we did that in good faith. If he's unwilling to put team first, let him and anything left of his game rot on the sidelines til he can be amnestied post season, which should have been done this year pre-season.
He can't be assigned to Hartford unless he waives his NMC and why would he do that?

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Old
09-27-2013, 11:30 AM
  #84
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I think Richards has looked better so far and is going to be given a look in a few different spots, but ultimately, I think the lineup shakes up as (please don't get hung up on who is on what line, the top three will roll nearly identical ES minutes, with line 1 getting slightly more than the other two):

Hagelin - Stepan - Nash
Pouliot - Brassard - Zuccarello
Miller - Richards - Callahan
Dorsett - Moore - Boyle
McDonagh - Girardi
Staal - Del Zotto
Moore - Stralman


Boyle - Callahan will be the top PK
Moore - Stepan will be the second unit

Do I think Callahan is a third liner? No. Do I think Pouliot is a top-six player? Not really. He has the skill set, but not the results. Do I think Hagelin is a top-line elite player? No. That's not how lines are made though. You work with the combos that work. Callahan will see plenty of time with the lines rolling nearly even minutes at ES and Cally seeing top PP and top PK minutes. Do I like having Pouliot on the second line? Not especially, but that will be an effective scoring line, which is what your top six needs. Miller, Richie and Callahan will be a responsible enough third line that can still play in the other team's end and put up some points. That's also the role of the captain - especially one like Callahan - to give his team maximum utility and play in the situations he's needed in. Obviously down a goal, or trying to protect a lead, he's going to be thrown on the ice for extra minutes as well.

I think that Kreider and Miller both make the team while Cally and Hags are out, but as soon as one is ready (and I think Cally is gonna play in the opener) it will be Miller who makes it over Kreider. He simply looks better and brings more intensity.

Pyatt, Powe, Asham are all essentially useless but Pyatt is probably the first who gets in the lineup in the case of an injury (besides Kreider). Powe has looked better in the fourth line/PK role, so I would bring him up before Asham as well.

Fast has, for the most part, impressed, but I just don't think there's room for him to make the team this season. He will be here next year, probably in Pouliot's spot.

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Old
09-27-2013, 11:53 AM
  #85
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AV mentioned keeping pairs together. The ones that have shown the most chemistry now and in the past are: Stepan - Nash, Pouliot - Brassard, and Richards - Zucc. So to start the season:

Fast/Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Pouliot - Brassard - Cally/Miller
Boyle - Richards - Zucc
Pyatt - Moore - Dorsett

Fast has the edge on Kreider so far. One of them has to be sent down though. Miller in if Cally isn't ready. I'd like to see Hrivik, Mashinter, Kreider and Lindberg given another shot to impress tonight. While Pyatt is pretty useless, he can be effective in the right situation. Pyatt - Boyle - Dorsett was probably the Rangers best consistent line in the playoffs. That left side is extremely weak and you have to hope one of the young kids can step up.

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Old
09-27-2013, 12:01 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
As someone who values 5v5 contributions a lot higher than special teams, I'm very excited to see what Pouliot can do this season. If he can score ~40 ES points that would be huge.
Except that he never has. And has worn out his welcome on most of his teams within a year.

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Old
09-27-2013, 05:39 PM
  #87
Leslie Treff
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I just wrote something about which prospects are likely to take a roster spot at http://hfnyrangers.com/?page_id=84

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Old
09-27-2013, 05:50 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by SixGoalieSystem View Post
He can't be assigned to Hartford unless he waives his NMC and why would he do that?
Assuming that's 100% true, we still don't have to dress him.
We can tell him just report, don't play and watch from the clubhouse.
As long as he gets paid, he can't say squat.
It's not critical we can't shame him by forcing him to Hartford.
It's safer he doesn't play anyways and so he doesn't get injured.

It's a billion + percent unacceptable that with hustling people who play better available, we have to keep this guy on the club, but he doesn't control the active (who will dress) roster.

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09-27-2013, 06:01 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
I just wrote something about which prospects are likely to take a roster spot at http://hfnyrangers.com/?page_id=84
thanks!. I also think Miller is in. I also agree it makes sense to keep Mashinter but it depends if Powe and Asham get dealt or go on waivers for cap space. Only if that happens otherwise one of them should be on the team and Mashinter goes down

Gonna guess Kreider sticks as well with Lindberg,Fast,Hrvik all down to get AHL experience. BUT that can easily change with one goal 2nite and a good performance

Also AV says he likes 8 D so that's Bickel sadly

I figure:
Hagelin(X Kreider) Stepan, Callahan (X Miller)
Pouliott, Brassard, Nash
Pyatt, Richards, Zuccarello
Boyle, Moore, Dorsett
Asham

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Old
09-27-2013, 06:03 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
I just wrote something about which prospects are likely to take a roster spot at http://hfnyrangers.com/?page_id=84
Nice article. Agree with Miller. Kreider will likely make it, since his skill is so seductive and tough to pass up when we are missing two top 6 guys. Fast has slowed down and Lindberg has all but disappeared at this point. Hrivik has looked great, but also could use some further seasoning in the AHL imo.

Disagree on Allen. He's looked fantastic and completely blown pretty much everyone away, but with our top 6 set, there is absolutely no way this kid should be watching from a press box. He should be playing games at this age and stage of his development.

His cap hit is also nearly 2 mil. There's no way the Rangers keep that sizable contract as a spare and potentially hinder the development of what looks like a potential diamond in the rough.

If they go with two spares it will be Falk and Bickel because bickel is so cheap.

If they go with one it will be Falk.

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Old
09-27-2013, 06:05 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Leslie Treff View Post
I just wrote something about which prospects are likely to take a roster spot at http://hfnyrangers.com/?page_id=84
Great read, LT.

While I liked hearing that Kreider was likely to get mins w/Fast (his passing skill appears on order w/Stepan + Brassard and that could be key for this RW w CK at LW), I was sick to my stomach to hear there will be more Boyle with these top guys.

Boyle has value, he is fine for what he does.
But it will be a huge mistake to not put those 2 in dedicated tandem w/Miller.

Leslie, am I overlooking something? What other C do we have with the wheels who also threatens to score? Miller is a hand in glove fit with Kreider, I tells ya, and for them to see that earlier and not use Fast and just let that line be (only other option will be Callahan), is very disheartening.

Kreider's problem is not heart, nor is it head. He will develop faster if he establishes himself successfully using his established speed game, then learns to slow it down if he has to with other linemates. Rangers are simply too slow except for Miller


Pouliot--Stepan--Nash ... all around talent line
Hagelin--Brassard--Callahan/Fast ... speed + passing. Speed kills
Kreider--Miller--Callahan/Fast ... super speed. Super speed potential to dominate
Boyle/Hrivik--Moore--Dorsett ... great checking/shutdown

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09-27-2013, 06:09 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Great read, LT.

While I liked hearing that Kreider was likely to get mins w/Fast (his passing skill appears on order w/Stepan + Brassard and that could be key for this RW w CK at LW), I was sick to my stomach to hear there will be more Boyle with these top guys.

Boyle has value, he is fine for what he does.
But it will be a huge mistake to not put those 2 in dedicated tandem w/Miller.

Leslie, am I overlooking something? What other C do we have with the wheels who also threatens to score? Miller is a hand in glove fit with Kreider, I tells ya, and for them to see that earlier and not use Fast and just let that line be (only other option will be Callahan), is very disheartening.

Kreider's problem is not heart, nor is it head. He will develop faster if he establishes himself successfully using his established speed game, then learns to slow it down if he has to with other linemates. Rangers are simply too slow except for Miller


Pouliot--Stepan--Nash ... all around talent line
Hagelin--Brassard--Callahan/Fast ... speed + passing. Speed kills
Kreider--Miller--Callahan/Fast ... super speed. Super speed potential to dominate
Boyle/Hrivik--Moore--Dorsett ... great checking/shutdown
Don't think Brad Richards is going to be a 6.6 million benchwarmer.

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09-27-2013, 06:11 PM
  #93
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Don't think Brad Richards is going to be a 6.6 million benchwarmer.
Seriously. Even though Richards was horrible last year(and I agree he was), he was still on a 60 point pace. Who can replace that?

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09-27-2013, 06:22 PM
  #94
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I really liked Kreider with Miller and wish that we could see more of that.

Although some of the other media are happy with Richards' s "improved" play, I do not see it and am not a believer. I think that not buying him out was an error.

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09-27-2013, 06:37 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post

Pouliot--Stepan--Nash ... all around talent line
Hagelin--Brassard--Callahan/Fast ... speed + passing. Speed kills
Kreider--Miller--Callahan/Fast ... super speed. Super speed potential to dominate
Boyle/Hrivik--Moore--Dorsett ... great checking/shutdown
I think it is safe to assume that barring a trade Richards and Zucc will not sit regardless of how much you dislike them.

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09-27-2013, 06:37 PM
  #96
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If I had it my way.


Hagelin--Stepan--Nash
Kreider--Brassard--Callahan
Fast--Lindberg--Miller/Zuccarello
Boyle--Moore--Dorsett


Outside of Callahan, no one on this team has chemistry with Richards.

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09-27-2013, 06:50 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by PK Pilot 76 View Post
I think Richards has looked better so far and is going to be given a look in a few different spots, but ultimately, I think the lineup shakes up as (please don't get hung up on who is on what line, the top three will roll nearly identical ES minutes, with line 1 getting slightly more than the other two):

Hagelin - Stepan - Nash
Pouliot - Brassard - Zuccarello
Miller - Richards - Callahan
Dorsett - Moore - Boyle
McDonagh - Girardi
Staal - Del Zotto
Moore - Stralman


Boyle - Callahan will be the top PK
Moore - Stepan will be the second unit



Pyatt, Powe, Asham are all essentially useless but Pyatt is probably the first who gets in the lineup in the case of an injury (besides Kreider). Powe has looked better in the fourth line/PK role, so I would bring him up before Asham as well.
You got Miller making the team when we are whole?
Pyatt and Powe as extras's and Asham benched?

If using those lines, I'd bump up Richards line to 2.

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09-27-2013, 07:31 PM
  #98
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I really liked Kreider with Miller and wish that we could see more of that.

Although some of the other media are happy with Richards' s "improved" play, I do not see it and am not a believer. I think that not buying him out was an error.
It's a calculated risk to keep Richards on the team. The Rangers are clearly going for it all this year. Having Richards as a third line Center instead of Moore or Boyle is a massive difference.

Say what you want about him, but like the poster above me said, he was on pace for a 60 point season last year, in what we can all agree on, was an absolutely dreadful season for him.

They're going to buy him out once the season is over with. Obviously he could get injured and severely hamper those chances, but there's not many times that you build a team that has a chance to win it all.

Regardless of the constant downtrodden opinions on these boards, the Rangers are built with a ton of depth this year. Their D should be one of the best, if not the best in the league.

Their offense down the middle is absolutely stunning. While we lack a Crosby, having Stepan, Brassard, Richards, Boyle/Moore as your centers is fantastic.

Again, to anyone with eyes and an objective point of view, it's clear as day, the Rangers are going for it all and weighed the risk that Richards will arguably be one of the better, if not the best, third line centers in all of hockey, versus the potential of him getting injured and destroying their cap plans for the future.

At first i was absolutely angered by the fact they didn't buy him out, but knowing the difficulty it takes to win a cup, this is the year where we have everyone under contract and can fit them.

After this year, things get extremely shaky with Hank, Cally, Girardi, Stralman all due raises, RFA's such as Zucc, Kreider, J. Moore, MDZ etc.

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09-28-2013, 06:37 PM
  #99
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It's a calculated risk to keep Richards on the team. The Rangers are clearly going for it all this year. Having Richards as a third line Center instead of Moore or Boyle is a massive difference.

Say what you want about him, but like the poster above me said, he was on pace for a 60 point season last year, in what we can all agree on, was an absolutely dreadful season for him.

They're going to buy him out once the season is over with. Obviously he could get injured and severely hamper those chances, but there's not many times that you build a team that has a chance to win it all.

Regardless of the constant downtrodden opinions on these boards, the Rangers are built with a ton of depth this year. Their D should be one of the best, if not the best in the league.

Their offense down the middle is absolutely stunning. While we lack a Crosby, having Stepan, Brassard, Richards, Boyle/Moore as your centers is fantastic.

Again, to anyone with eyes and an objective point of view, it's clear as day, the Rangers are going for it all and weighed the risk that Richards will arguably be one of the better, if not the best, third line centers in all of hockey, versus the potential of him getting injured and destroying their cap plans for the future.

At first i was absolutely angered by the fact they didn't buy him out, but knowing the difficulty it takes to win a cup, this is the year where we have everyone under contract and can fit them.

After this year, things get extremely shaky with Hank, Cally, Girardi, Stralman all due raises, RFA's such as Zucc, Kreider, J. Moore, MDZ etc.
I'm w/Leslie on this, not impressed w/Richards, including on D.

we are committed to
Stepan
Brassard
and Moore as 1, 2 and 4 C respectively

With the possible exception of Nash, Kreider is our most gifted offensive weapon.
I am not merely saying that Miller with Kreider would be great (check, actually, I HAVE been saying that since I advocating advancing Miller last year), you witnessed it for yourselves. You need not take it on face value.

So if you make Miller a C, barring a trade of 1, 2 or 4 C above, there is no room for Richards at C, who more importantly has not shown he deserves to play, IMO. If we had the option to amnesty him NOW, I would have said, ok, doesn't make sense but ya wanna hold off til the next to last minute before the season, fine. But we didn't have that option, we had a narrow window, and we --- 1 of Slats or Dolan --- screwed up. I would love to believe that some magic button would get pushed and Richards would be a player from X years ago. But that ain't happen. He will get worse, not better, with the rigors of the campaign. Our only hope now, besides not dressing him, is he gets injured enough to be out of play for the year, but not enough to be stuck with him after amnesty next year.

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09-28-2013, 06:51 PM
  #100
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With the possible exception of Nash, Kreider is our most gifted offensive weapon.

Just out of curiosity, and you must be seeing something that I am not at all, what do you base that statement on ? Merely looking to get educated.

Kreider has, with a lot of Rangers, had a very underwhelming pre-season, and this is a guy that needed to develop from the previous season to obtain a spot in the roster. He has, by my judgement at least, not done that.

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