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The Pens' supposed "playoff embarassment" since '09

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Old
09-28-2013, 08:09 PM
  #76
sf expat71
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
Apparently anything less than unprecedented success is considered an embarrassing failure. I mean look at it this way, the Pens went to two Cup finals in '08 and '09. So what is the criticism? That we haven't been back since? Ok well, if we had been, that would have been 3 finals appearances in 5 years. Sorry, but that's a level of dominance that is pretty unrealistic to expect. Especially in today's NHL. Hope for it, sure, but to characterize anything less as an "embarrassment" is absurd.

It seems like drafting Crosby/Malkin really ****ed with the minds of Pens fans in a very bad way. Yes, they're the top two players in the world, but anybody that thought that guaranteed dominance is delusional. The 95-96, 96-97 and 00-01 Pens teams all had the top two players in the world too. Still didn't lead to a Cup. People need to stop going into every year thinking a finals appearance should be a given because of Sid and Geno. Other great players and teams do exist.
So what are your expectations for the team? We didn't underachieve in any of those years then?

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09-28-2013, 08:11 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
Apparently anything less than unprecedented success is considered an embarrassing failure. I mean look at it this way, the Pens went to two Cup finals in '08 and '09. So what is the criticism? That we haven't been back since? Ok well, if we had been, that would have been 3 finals appearances in 5 years. Sorry, but that's a level of dominance that is pretty unrealistic to expect. Especially in today's NHL. Hope for it, sure, but to characterize anything less as an "embarrassment" is absurd.

It seems like drafting Crosby/Malkin really ****ed with the minds of Pens fans in a very bad way. Yes, they're the top two players in the world, but anybody that thought that guaranteed dominance is delusional. The 95-96, 96-97 and 00-01 Pens teams all had the top two players in the world too. Still didn't lead to a Cup. People need to stop going into every year thinking a finals appearance should be a given because of Sid and Geno. Other great players and teams do exist.
So the reasoning behind the losses to the Flyers and Bruins being acceptable is "making it to the Cup Finals again that quickly would be really really successful"

Remember kids: when you have "the two best players in the world" and "one of the best coaches in the league" you should not be reaching for "really really successful."

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09-28-2013, 08:26 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by sf expat71 View Post
Which begs the question, are you embarrassed by our playoff exits in the other 3 years? Keep in mind we still employ said goalie...
I'm more embarrassed by the organization's reaction than anything.

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09-28-2013, 08:28 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
So the reasoning behind the losses to the Flyers and Bruins being acceptable is "making it to the Cup Finals again that quickly would be really really successful"

Remember kids: when you have "the two best players in the world" and "one of the best coaches in the league" you should not be reaching for "really really successful."
Hey I go into every year thinking the Pens are good enough to win a Cup and hoping that they do. But I also have the rational part of me that says there are several other teams that are good enough to win it too and that having the two best players guarantees nothing.

The days of the dominant Islanders and Oilers teams winning 3 or 4 cups in a handful of years are long over. The gap between the top team and the bottom team isn't nearly what it used to be. A big part of winning the Cup is getting breaks, being healthy, getting hot at the right time and getting good matchups. To expect those factors to always go your way is just being spoiled.

Again, if you guys want to characterize not having 3 finals appearances in 5 years as an "embarrassment", go right ahead. I personally don't view the Pens roster as being so far above the rest of the league to feel that way. I don't take issue with being disappointed or even wanting changes, I take issue with the characterization that every playoff loss is an "embarrassment" simply because we have Sid and Geno on the team.

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09-28-2013, 08:30 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
So the reasoning behind the losses to the Flyers and Bruins being acceptable is "making it to the Cup Finals again that quickly would be really really successful"

Remember kids: when you have "the two best players in the world" and "one of the best coaches in the league" you should not be reaching for "really really successful."
there is a huge difference between being disappointed because we haven't been as successful as we'd like and talking about our embarrassing lack of success. If anything short of the finals is an embarrassment because we have Sid and Geno, then I hope everyone here expects to be embarrassed at the end of the vast majority of their seasons in this league. People that expect Sid and Geno to make us so much better than everyone else that we should be a lock as best team in the league each year are delusional. They are good enough to make us consistently one of the better teams in the league every year. And they've done that. They do not make us the best team in the league by any significant margin though. We are squarely in the group of top teams. Only one other team has had more success than us during Sid's and Geno's time in the league. The league is too good for two guys to propel us to a tier above the other top teams in the league.

Do I wish we'd have more success? Sure I do. Is it embarrassing that we aren't the best team in the league every year? No. Because its unreasonable to expect that. If Sid and Geno can't get us to another Cup at some point, that would be very disappointing. Mario and Jagr had 2 at this stage. But guess what, that's all they ever got. Sid and Geno have some time to play catch-up.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 09-28-2013 at 08:43 PM.
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09-28-2013, 08:51 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
Apparently anything less than unprecedented success is considered an embarrassing failure. I mean look at it this way, the Pens went to two Cup finals in '08 and '09. So what is the criticism? That we haven't been back since? Ok well, if we had been, that would have been 3 finals appearances in 5 years. Sorry, but that's a level of dominance that is pretty unrealistic to expect. Especially in today's NHL. Hope for it, sure, but to characterize anything less as an "embarrassment" is absurd.

It seems like drafting Crosby/Malkin really ****ed with the minds of Pens fans in a very bad way. Yes, they're the top two players in the world, but anybody that thought that guaranteed dominance is delusional. The 95-96, 96-97 and 00-01 Pens teams all had the top two players in the world too. Still didn't lead to a Cup. People need to stop going into every year thinking a finals appearance should be a given because of Sid and Geno. Other great players and teams do exist.
I've said this about 10 times in the past week, but some still don't get it.

It's not that they lost, it's how they lost and who they lost to.

Had they put up a fight vs Boston and lost in game 6 or 7 I could accept that as "we can't win it every year." However, they got bent over by the Bs, which doesn't even come close to "we can't win it every year."

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09-28-2013, 09:00 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
the flyers series and the boston series were both very embarrassing to me.

pens came off like spoiled babies against the flyers. and last year with all the additions, with all the iginla drama, and the entire hockey world watching, hcdb exposes himself as a stubborn fool (keeping iginla at lw is the epitome of embarrassing), crosby/malkin were epic failures, and letang was exposed as a fourth forward.

anytime you are swept is embarrassing, unless your team is absolutely crushed with injuries. particularly so when you were favorites going in to the series.

people seem very frazzled by the idea that the penguins are annually overrated and are occasionally delivering shameful performances. im not sure why people get upset when not everyone is "ra-ra" cheerleading for your favorite team. its just stupid sports, let people enjoy the team however they want.
This is why I always like Til. The Pens have taken steps backwards since winning the cup. That's as clear as day.

Gone is the structure, grit and teams that are hard to play against. In is the drama and superstar hockey BS. I also wonder if the Pens are trying to bring back the 80's more than trying to win hockey games.

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09-28-2013, 09:02 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
there is a huge difference between being disappointed because we haven't been as successful as we'd like and talking about our embarrassing lack of success. If anything short of the finals is an embarrassment because we have Sid and Geno, then I hope everyone here expects to be embarrassed at the end of the vast majority of their seasons in this league. People that expect Sid and Geno to make us so much better than everyone else that we should be a lock as best team in the league each year are delusional. They are good enough to make us consistently one of the better teams in the league every year. And they've done that. They do not make us the best team in the league by any significant margin though. We are squarely in the group of top teams. Only one other team has had more success than us during Sid's and Geno's time in the league. The league is too good for two guys to propel us to a tier above the other top teams in the league.

Do I wish we'd have more success? Sure I do. Is it embarrassing that we aren't the best team in the league every year? No. Because its unreasonable to expect that. If Sid and Geno can't get us to another Cup at some point, that would be very disappointing. Mario and Jagr had 2 at this stage. But guess what, that's all they ever got. Sid and Geno have some time to play catch-up.
I think too many people are getting hung up on the word embarrassment. I don't know if I can be "embarrassed" as a fan. I don't think I've used that word yet, and if I have, I guess I'm the hypocrite.

If I were to use that word, I'd use it like this: I'm not embarrassed by their lack of cups, but I think they exited the playoffs in embarrassing fashion the past two seasons.

edit: Sorry, I CAN be embarrassed as a fan, but I save it more for things like: our players are getting arrested every week, or are heavy PED users, cheaters, etc... Basically, off-the-field things.

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09-28-2013, 09:10 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I think too many people are getting hung up on the word embarrassment. I don't know if I can be "embarrassed" as a fan. I don't think I've used that word yet, and if I have, I guess I'm the hypocrite.

If I were to use that word, I'd use it like this: I'm not embarrassed by their lack of cups, but I think they exited the playoffs in embarrassing fashion the past two seasons.

edit: Sorry, I CAN be embarrassed as a fan, but I save it more for things like: our players are getting arrested every week, or are heavy PED users, cheaters, etc... Basically, off-the-field things.
replace embarrassment with over the top negativity and I think my point still stands. I honestly don't read things closely enough at this point to know who is saying what half the time. I just know too many people are arguing on the extreme ends of this spectrum. We should be able to do better than we have recently. But at the same time, expecting us to do much better than we have is pretty unrealistic. We SHOULD have a couple more playoff wins under our belts. We SHOULD even have another series win or two. Should we have another Cup or Finals appearance? No more than the teams that were actually there. Someone always ends up disappointed.

And I was embarrassed when Letang Shhhhh'd in Philly. The team throwing a collective tantrum was really bad.

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09-28-2013, 09:15 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I've said this about 10 times in the past week, but some still don't get it.

It's not that they lost, it's how they lost and who they lost to.

Had they put up a fight vs Boston and lost in game 6 or 7 I could accept that as "we can't win it every year." However, they got bent over by the Bs, which doesn't even come close to "we can't win it every year."
You really believe that? Come on. The truth is that even if the Pens had gone 6 or 7 games against Boston, we'd still probably be seeing the same bed-wetting that's gone on around here the last few months. There was endless whining about DB, Shero, Glass, Adams, etc long before we even got to Boston.

Through the first two rounds, people weren't satisfied with how we were winning. So you expect me to believe that this board would have peacefully accepted any kind of loss? Sorry, I'm not buying it. The team loaded up at the deadline and everyone hypnotized themselves with that "all in" bull**** and the expectation became cup or bust(perhaps not for you personally, but that overall sentiment was certainly there). And that's fine if a lot of people expected that, but let's at least be honest about it.

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09-28-2013, 09:16 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
replace embarrassment with over the top negativity and I think my point still stands. I honestly don't read things closely enough at this point to know who is saying what half the time. I just know too many people are arguing on the extreme ends of this spectrum. We should be able to do better than we have recently. But at the same time, expecting us to do much better than we have is pretty unrealistic.

And I was embarrassed when Letang Shhhhh'd in Philly. The team throwing a collective tantrum was really bad
.
oh. yea. that. I was doing so well suppressing that memory.

I think the Pens should have done better in recent years, though I don't know if that means "more cups." I thought, and still feel, they were the best team in the East last year, but if they had lost to the Blackhawks, that wouldn't have been anything to be ashamed of.

On the other hand, I'm not sitting here saying the Pens have one of the best coaches in the league. I think if you believe the Pens have the 2-best players in the league and one of the best coaches in the league, you have to admit that they've fallen short of expectations.

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09-28-2013, 09:19 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
oh. yea. that. I was doing so well suppressing that memory.

I think the Pens should have done better in recent years, though I don't know if that means "more cups." I thought, and still feel, they were the best team in the East last year, but if they had lost to the Blackhawks, that wouldn't have been anything to be ashamed of.

On the other hand, I'm not sitting here saying the Pens have one of the best coaches in the league. I think if you believe the Pens have the 2-best players in the league and one of the best coaches in the league, you have to admit that they've fallen short of expectations.
I have been pretty anti-Bylsma for some time now. But I also have at least some hope that Martin will help Disco improve as a coach.

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09-28-2013, 10:52 PM
  #88
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To me, it seems that the guys running things are happy with getting to the playoffs year in and year out. They don't want to tempt a total regime change fearing it would make things even worse.

Every move this off-season points to just that.

They will hang on to everyone in the family and try to correct them:

-after looking at Jacques Martin for awhile, they bring him in.

-bring in a legit backup for MAF and send him to a psychologist.

-sign Adams for no reason whatsoever and hang on to Niskanen

Not to mention the deals given to Kunitz and Dupuis.

The people running things want change but not at the cost of kicking happy family members out of the house.(for fear of years where they don't make the playoffs)

The best teams take gambles that pay off. Chicago's team last year wasn't the same team at all from thier '10 cup team. Boston has many different faces from their '11 team that reached last years final.

This team is too scared to change in any drastic way.

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09-28-2013, 11:20 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
You really believe that? Come on. The truth is that even if the Pens had gone 6 or 7 games against Boston, we'd still probably be seeing the same bed-wetting that's gone on around here the last few months. There was endless whining about DB, Shero, Glass, Adams, etc long before we even got to Boston.

Through the first two rounds, people weren't satisfied with how we were winning. So you expect me to believe that this board would have peacefully accepted any kind of loss? Sorry, I'm not buying it. The team loaded up at the deadline and everyone hypnotized themselves with that "all in" bull**** and the expectation became cup or bust(perhaps not for you personally, but that overall sentiment was certainly there). And that's fine if a lot of people expected that, but let's at least be honest about it.
I can only speak for myself, but I know I'd feel much better about the BOS loss if they went to 6 or 7 and put up a good fight.

People were *****ing about how we were winning because we were showing signs of cracking, which a better team would exploit. We saw DB continuously **** likes up and make bad decisions. We knew that once we played a good team we were in trouble. Which is exactly what happened when we played BOS.

I'm pissed about the past 4 years because I feel that Shero has made some mistakes and DB is a horrible coach. I don't see this team ever winning another Cup behind the bench because he gets routinely out-coached in the POs and makes terrible decisions when it comes to the line-up or in-game adjustments.

I started to turn on Shero last summer, but this year finally broke all of my trust in him. From the Eaton and Adams signings to giving two 34 yearolds 4 year extensions to keep a bad PO line together till Sid's 30 to extending DB and all his yes-men assistants, I just don't think he's making the right decisions to build a Cup winner.

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09-28-2013, 11:29 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by sf expat71 View Post
So what are your expectations for the team? We didn't underachieve in any of those years then?
I do not expect the team to win the cup every year, and if they merely had bowed out I doubt that anyone would complain.

It is HOW they have lost that has everyone up in arms.

I DO expect the coaches to put players in the best position to enable themselves, and more importantly the team, to succeed. Putting a ****ing sure fire hall of fame wing who has played his entire career on the right side on the left side is a microcosm of what is wrong with these coaches.

I DO expect the coaches to make rational in game and in series adjustments, especially when you have seen the same thing thrown at you to completely shut your system down three years in a row in the playoffs.

I DO expect the players, who now are seasoned vets, to realize that this is the playoffs and you have to play tighter defensively and sacrifice your body, this is not the ASG where you can outscore the other team.

It is NOT the results that pisses me off, it is the stupidity. And the fact that it is the same stupidity year after year.

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09-28-2013, 11:44 PM
  #91
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I do not expect the team to win the cup every year, and if they merely had bowed out I doubt that anyone would complain.

It is HOW they have lost that has everyone up in arms.

I DO expect the coaches to put players in the best position to enable themselves, and more importantly the team, to succeed. Putting a ****ing sure fire hall of fame wing who has played his entire career on the right side on the left side is a microcosm of what is wrong with these coaches.

I DO expect the coaches to make rational in game and in series adjustments, especially when you have seen the same thing thrown at you to completely shut your system down three years in a row in the playoffs.

I DO expect the players, who now are seasoned vets, to realize that this is the playoffs and you have to play tighter defensively and sacrifice your body, this is not the ASG where you can outscore the other team.

It is NOT the results that pisses me off, it is the stupidity. And the fact that it is the same stupidity year after year.
Agree with this. But say these things that you "expect" are addressed. What would the expectations for the team be then? Because ultimately it is a results oriented business, if we are upset in the first round despite making adjustments, etc, is it embarrassing? I'm not saying we should be winning every year, but losing annually to a lower seeded team and the F.O. seemingly not really addressing these shortcomings is frustrating.

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09-28-2013, 11:54 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by sf expat71 View Post
Agree with this. But say these things that you "expect" are addressed. What would the expectations for the team be then? Because ultimately it is a results oriented business, if we are upset in the first round despite making adjustments, etc, is it embarrassing? I'm not saying we should be winning every year, but losing annually to a lower seeded team and the F.O. seemingly not really addressing these shortcomings is frustrating.
I have no preset expectations regarding results in the playoffs. It is the longest grind in sports, and injuries play such a big role, along with bounces and lots of other factors. I do expect the Pens to have the talent to be competitive, but expecting more is foolish. The things I addressed above are not results oriented by preparation and coaching skill oriented. Just like I expect the players to give their best, no more or less, I expect the same from coaches. We have not been getting that from either.

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09-29-2013, 12:47 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
You're like talking to a child. Round 3 is not always better than round 2, because not every series is the same, just like not every bill is the same.
Is every $2 bill worth more than every $1 bill?

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Clearly. That's your problem.
Still can't make the designation, eh?

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They were used to laying w/o SId and Geno. They had their own identity w/o them and they won many games w/o them. They didn't have to suddenly adjust to playing w/o them as the POs started. It makes a huge difference.
It doesn't take away from the fact that the team wasn't running at anywhere near its full ability, like any other team missing its two biggest stars.

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I never said that other teams losses weren't embarrassing, I said that it didn't ****ing matter. The Hawks lose the in the 1st round for the next 10 POs after being up 3-0 and it wouldn't change how good or bad the Pens' wins or losses are.

"Mom, everyone was drinking so it's ok that was drinking too!"
If you call a team embarrassing, it has to be in relation to something besides your own arbitrary expectations that apparently shouldn't apply to any other team.

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Maybe, but there are underachieving or one dimensional players who are called elite. The stats may tell you that they are talented but you'll never know what kind of player they are without watching them. Would you rather have Yzerman or Kovalchuk? Both were elite but only one is a winner.
I don't recall saying anything about what team I'd rather have, or what team is a "winner". Only that one can discern a certain degree of quality given results alone, subjective opinions on the "how" aside.
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We certainly agree on some things, I see some good points on both sides.

Unfortunately, there is no trophy for being in the elite 8. For a team this talented I don't see much success in being 5th loser. Don't lose sight of the goal here, win the conference, win the Cup. When people criticize this team it isn't because it is fun, it is because they see weaknesses that they believe are holding the Pens back.

Before someone mentions it, it isn't about fans being spoiled, entitled, or not recognizing that there are 16 other teams trying just as hard. The fans just recognize that this team is immensely talented and the clock is ticking on the "core." The next few years could be our only chance at another Cup in our lifetimes.

Consider the Sharks. According to your metric, they have been much more successful than us in the playoffs in the last 4 years. They have 2 conference finals appearances and 5 series wins to our 3. Yet the Sharks have become known as perennial playoff failures and are the butt of jokes every April. They even picked up the wonderful nickname the "Chokes." Their fans certainly don't feel like being in those 8 teams is a success in and of itself. We shouldn't be happy with it either.
Nobody's lost sight of that. The point is that very, very few have done it more often than the Pens.

The Sharks are considered perennial chokers despite having had more success than the Pens the last 4 years. The Sharks also weren't just coming off consecutive Finals appearances and a Cup, which is why they've gotten that label.

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You're delusional, man. This is a team that is capable of fielding "the two best players in the world" for ~67% of a game. If they're as good at coaching and GM as you keep vomiting relentlessly, then I'm pretty sure they should be capable of winning more than 1 cup in their tenure. Not doing so would be a complete and utter failure.
They are. But it's a cap world with many great players, and only one team has had more Cup wins post-lockout.

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Re: Cooke - probably the only veteran they had who was 1) good in his role, 2) great in the playoffs in his role, 3) should have been brought back.

I would much rather have:

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dags
something-something-something

That actually is balanced and makes sense!
I'm much more comfortable giving Dupuis the money he got than giving 2.5 mil per to an older, less effective Cooke.

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Re: young players. I don't think you actually read what I said. We're talking about replacing 4th liners who have little-to-no value with younger players. Apparently the only young players you think are capable or worthy of stepping in are top-end draft picks. The Penguins letting go of Glass and Adams would actually be much less risky than what the Bruins are doing.
Like Bortuzzo?

Last time I checked, Shawn Thornton was still getting playoff minutes over Jordan Caron and Carl Soderberg.

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But I do like how you'll support the Penguins and the basis of your support is saying that the Bruins had to let those kids play in the playoffs due to injury.

Yep.

And those kids stepped up and performed over a very small sample. And the Bruins said, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS."
The Bruins had to do it because it was after the trade deadline, not because of a dedicated youth movement.

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By the way, since you're God's gift to hockey minds, what's cheaper/easier to fill? A well-rounded top-6 player or a 3rd liner?
The Pens have both. /godsgifttohockeyminds

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Okay, RRP, let's talk about results. If you're going to be beholden to them, then you're a hypocrite. The Penguins had the best record in hockey last year. They outplayed the Bruins completely in the regular season. And when the playoffs came around, they crumbled.
There's nothing hypocritical about it. Regular season success doesn't equal playoff success, it only ensures better playoff seeding.

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If results are all that matter, stop hiding behind the empty meaninglessness of the regular season.
Is this real life? What part of the OP, which outlines nothing but playoff results, hides behind the regular season?

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You know who cares about regular season records? People who don't win anything. The results that matter in sports are playoff results. What's your playoff record. How many championships do they win.
No ****, Sherlock. Open your eyes and read the OP.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 09-29-2013 at 01:01 AM.
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Old
09-29-2013, 01:23 AM
  #94
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Is every $2 bill worth more than every $1 bill?


Still can't make the designation, eh?


It doesn't take away from the fact that the team wasn't running at anywhere near its full ability, like any other team missing its two biggest stars.


If you call a team embarrassing, it has to be in relation to something besides your own arbitrary expectations that apparently shouldn't apply to any other team.
Ugh. So much quantity, so little quality.

The world isn't black and white, like you're trying to make it seem. You can keep spewing that round 3 is better than round 2 but that won't change the fact that the Wings had a more successful PO than the Pens last year. Your only argument in favor of the Pens is that 3 is better then 2. If you had a real argument, you'd have given it by now.

My point about missing Sid and Geno is that the Pens team w/o them was playing great and earned their high seed. They were def good enough to win one of the final 3 games vs TB. But of course you can't see past your excuses.

Of course a team's perceived embarrassments is compared to it's expectations, not other teams. WTF are you talking about? How the **** does any other team's failures effect the Pens' PO performance over the past 4 years? I'd love for you to explain how Boston losing after being up 3-0 made the Pens loose to Philly last year or how DET losing to NSH made the Pens lose to BOS this year.

You haven't backed up your opinions with any actual arguments. You post arbitrary statements to try to pimp the Pens and stick up for Shero and DB. You've been on a crusade this summer to strike down anyone who dares put down Shero and DB, and would rather resort to using childishly biased thread titles, name calling, and blanket black/white statements than provide any substance. The truth is that if DB and Shero were each as amazing as you think they are, the Pens would have had much more success over the past 4 years.

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09-29-2013, 04:56 AM
  #95
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People can debate words however they like. Some can pull out the random excuse generator to rationalize all of the disappointments. We've had the heated discussions. My own passions notwithstanding, the only way that I know to be truly objective about the last four playoffs is to do the 'time machine' test:

Travel back in time to June 2009. The Pens just won the cup. If I'd have told you THEN that the Pens would have three series wins (twice against the Sens, once against the Isles) and one ECF in which they were swept to show for the next four seasons, I cannot fathom how any rational person would use a word other than DISAPPOINTMENT to describe that.

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09-29-2013, 05:02 AM
  #96
TheSniper26
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Ugh. So much quantity, so little quality.

The world isn't black and white, like you're trying to make it seem. You can keep spewing that round 3 is better than round 2 but that won't change the fact that the Wings had a more successful PO than the Pens last year. Your only argument in favor of the Pens is that 3 is better then 2. If you had a real argument, you'd have given it by now.
You keep going back to this dollar bill argument but it really isn't a good analogy. RRP is saying that 3 is better than 2. That's a simple way of looking at it, but it's still a true statement. You're saying a 5 dollar bill is worth more than two 1 dollar bills. Also true. But who assigns these values? This where the analogy falls apart. Playoff series don't have an absolute value like dollars and cents. You're just arbitrarily assigning value based on your personal preferences. It's like saying 2 cookie are better than 5 brownies because cookies are worth 3 times as much as brownies. It's just nonsense that doesn't mean anything. Sweet, delicious nonsense.
Quote:
My point about missing Sid and Geno is that the Pens team w/o them was playing great and earned their high seed. They were def good enough to win one of the final 3 games vs TB. But of course you can't see past your excuses.
I can't believe this is even an argument to be honest. I can understand the frustration with the other 3 playoffs exits, but not this one. This is a prime example of expectations that are out of control imo. Again, if the Hawks lost both Toews/Kane, how do you think they'd fare in the playoffs? If they lost to a team in 7, would that be an embarrassment for them? I doubt any reasonable person would feel that way.

Also, you're showing your hypocrisy a bit here too. You keep referencing the Wings "successful" playoffs last year because, instead of being swept, they went 7 games. So a fully healthy Wings team blowing a series lead and losing in 7 is something to be proud of, but a depleted Pens team doing the same in 2011 is another example of an "embarrassment"? How can the expectations for a fully healthy team be lower than the expectations for a team that's missing it's primary weapons? I feel like you're letting your emotional investment in the Pens cloud your thinking a little on this one.

Quote:
Of course a team's perceived embarrassments is compared to it's expectations, not other teams. WTF are you talking about? How the **** does any other team's failures effect the Pens' PO performance over the past 4 years? I'd love for you to explain how Boston losing after being up 3-0 made the Pens loose to Philly last year or how DET losing to NSH made the Pens lose to BOS this year.

You haven't backed up your opinions with any actual arguments. You post arbitrary statements to try to pimp the Pens and stick up for Shero and DB. You've been on a crusade this summer to strike down anyone who dares put down Shero and DB, and would rather resort to using childishly biased thread titles, name calling, and blanket black/white statements than provide any substance. The truth is that if DB and Shero were each as amazing as you think they are, the Pens would have had much more success over the past 4 years.
The problem with this is that, again, it's not really based on anything. You're claiming that the Pens have been an embarrassment based on nothing more than your personal expectations. That's fine, but to turn around and claim that RRP has no substance to his arguments is a little silly because his argument is at least based on the real world that the Pens actually exist in(ie the NHL) and not just some personal set of preferences.

The thing is, I genuinely see both sides of the coin here. It's frustrating to look at some of the dynamic talent on the roster and not see more cups. I get that. But at the same time, this is the league everybody wanted. The 2013 NHL is a league of parity. The gap between the best and worst(both teams and players) is smaller than it's ever been. No matter how good you think your roster looks, the difference between winning and losing can be so incredibly small. One bad turnover or weak goal can send the otherwise "superior" team packing. As was mentioned earlier, there's a reason that only one team has repeated post-lockout and there's a reason that an 8 seed stomped their way to a cup.

Is that to say that you should lower your standards because of bad odds? Of course not. My standard is that the Pens should ice a team that is capable of competing for a cup. They did that last year and they're doing it this year. But being capable guarantees nothing. I'll continue to stay realistic because not doing so just leads to guaranteed disappointment. I mean, I hate to spoil the ending for everyone, but the Crosby/Malkin era isn't going to net us 4 or 5 cups. Having Sid and Geno only ensures that we're in the top tier of teams. After that, a lot just really has to go your way.

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09-29-2013, 05:07 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSniper26 View Post
You keep going back to this dollar bill argument but it really isn't a good analogy. RRP is saying that 3 is better than 2. That's a simple way of looking at it, but it's still a true statement. You're saying a 5 dollar bill is worth more than two 1 dollar bills. Also true. But who assigns these values? This where the analogy falls apart. Playoff series don't have an absolute value like dollars and cents. You're just arbitrarily assigning value based on your personal preferences. It's like saying 2 cookie are better than 5 brownies because cookies are worth 3 times as much as brownies. It's just nonsense that doesn't mean anything. Sweet, delicious nonsense.

I can't believe this is even an argument to be honest. I can understand the frustration with the other 3 playoffs exits, but not this one. This is a prime example of expectations that are out of control imo. Again, if the Hawks lost both Toews/Kane, how do you think they'd fare in the playoffs? If they lost to a team in 7, would that be an embarrassment for them? I doubt any reasonable person would feel that way.

Also, you're showing your hypocrisy a bit here too. You keep referencing the Wings "successful" playoffs last year because, instead of being swept, they went 7 games. So a fully healthy Wings team blowing a series lead and losing in 7 is something to be proud of, but a depleted Pens team doing the same in 2011 is another example of an "embarrassment"? How can the expectations for a fully healthy team be lower than the expectations for a team that's missing it's primary weapons? I feel like you're letting your emotional investment in the Pens cloud your thinking a little on this one.


The problem with this is that, again, it's not really based on anything. You're claiming that the Pens have been an embarrassment based on nothing more than your personal expectations. That's fine, but to turn around and claim that RRP has no substance to his arguments is a little silly because his argument is at least based on the real world that the Pens actually exist in(ie the NHL) and not just some personal set of preferences.

The thing is, I genuinely see both sides of the coin here. It's frustrating to look at some of the dynamic talent on the roster and not see more cups. I get that. But at the same time, this is the league everybody wanted. The 2013 NHL is a league of parity. The gap between the best and worst(both teams and players) is smaller than it's ever been. No matter how good you think your roster looks, the difference between winning and losing can be so incredibly small. One bad turnover or weak goal can send the otherwise "superior" team packing. As was mentioned earlier, there's a reason that only one team has repeated post-lockout and there's a reason that an 8 seed stomped their way to a cup.

Is that to say that you should lower your standards because of bad odds? Of course not. My standard is that the Pens should ice a team that is capable of competing for a cup. They did that last year and they're doing it this year. But being capable guarantees nothing. I'll continue to stay realistic because not doing so just leads to guaranteed disappointment. I mean, I hate to spoil the ending for everyone, but the Crosby/Malkin era isn't going to net us 4 or 5 cups. Having Sid and Geno only ensures that we're in the top tier of teams. After that, a lot just really has to go your way.
I'll ask you a question that I just asked above: Go back to June of 2009. The Pens won the cup. Now, I'm going to tell you that in the next four years, then Pens will win a total of three series, two against the Sens (one a year after winning the cup and one four years later against an injury depleted squad) and one against an Isles team that hadn't sniffed the playoffs in years and who's catalyst was playing in juniors in June 2009. There would be only one trip to the ECF, and the Pens would be swept in that series. And, again, I'm telling you in June 2009 that's all the Pens would have to show for the next four seasons.

What would you have said THEN?

What word would you have used THEN?

Would you have expected Bylsma still to be the coach THEN?

And, what would you have said to me if I'd have tried to rationalize things as 'Fleury sucked twice, team melted down against the Flyers, missed Sid and Geno one year and blew a 3-1 lead that year, etc'? What would you have said about the excuses THEN?

I'm with RRP. Results matter. And, if you'd have told me in June 2009 that this **** is all the Pens would have to show for the next four years, then no word but DISAPPOINTMENT would have been appropriate to use THEN.

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09-29-2013, 05:11 AM
  #98
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
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Yeah that's some bizzaro logic re: 2013 Wings / 2011 Pens. Clearly Detroit had much more going for them in that series.

Also pretty sure most people who don't know RG would be blown away to find out that he's actually a diehard Fleury apologist. There's a man we can be all embarrassed about.

Edit: My first post in three months? It feels longer.

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09-29-2013, 05:16 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Yeah that's some bizzaro logic re: 2013 Wings / 2011 Pens. Clearly Detroit had much more going for them in that series.

Also pretty sure most people who don't know RG would be blown away to find out that he's actually a diehard Fleury apologist. There's a man we can be all embarrassed about.
Agreed about the comparison. Here's a question for you: The Wings took the champ to 7 games in the semis. The Pens beat an injury depleted Sens team after beating an Isles team that hadn't sniffed the playoffs for years and perhaps, in hindsight, was rationalized as being tougher than they were because they'd challenged the Pens. The Pens then got swept by the cup loser. Which team had the better playoffs? Pens went a round further. Wings actually showed something against a cup finalist.

Also wouldn't mind your thoughts on my time machine question. I'm putting away the hyperbole and vitriol out of respect for RRP on this one. I just can't see how you can go back four years and at that moment in time see the results that would come from the four playoffs that followed as anything but disappointing.

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Old
09-29-2013, 05:25 AM
  #100
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
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Agreed about the comparison. Here's a question for you: The Wings took the champ to 7 games in the semis. The Pens beat an injury depleted Sens team after beating an Isles team that hadn't sniffed the playoffs for years and perhaps, in hindsight, was rationalized as being tougher than they were because they'd challenged the Pens. The Pens then got swept by the cup loser. Which team had the better playoffs? Pens went a round further. Wings actually showed something against a cup finalist.

Also wouldn't mind your thoughts on my time machine question. I'm putting away the hyperbole and vitriol out of respect for RRP on this one. I just can't see how you can go back four years and at that moment in time see the results that would come from the four playoffs that followed as anything but disappointing.
Well, similar logic could be used to say that we had a very respectable 11' season, no? We took TB to 7 games without 2 of the best players in the world and our goalie having a massively lower save percentage than theirs. That was the same team that ended up taking Boston, the eventual Cup champs, to 7 games. Those were the same Cup champs that were a goal away from losing Game 7 in OT to the Canadiens in the first round, a result that almost certainly would have gotten Claude Julien fired. We all know how things have gone for them since.

Point being that you get into pretty murky water when you hyper analyze things in that way, but I do agree that it's been a disappointing run since 09'. But really, except for Boston and Chicago I don't think our results look that that unfavorable to anybody since Bylsma took over, and keep in mind how close both of those team's coaches were to being fired at different points. I mean, check Chicago's board when they were down 3-1. Bylsma looks like Herb Brooks in comparison.

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