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Old
09-29-2013, 02:01 PM
  #126
UKFlyers
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Eklund (yeah, yeah, but he's been good on the Flyers recently) tweeted:

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Flyers working hard on a trade. Could be keeping some money in the deal I am told
What could that be? Got to expect someone fairly decent would be coming back if we're hanging onto salary to sweeten the deal.

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09-29-2013, 02:02 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by UKFlyers View Post
Eklund (yeah, yeah, but he's been good on the Flyers recently) tweeted:



What could that be? Got to expect someone fairly decent would be coming back if we're hanging onto salary to sweeten the deal.
I expect we ship out Meszaros, cover half, and get a third line winger in the process.

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09-29-2013, 02:06 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
I expect we ship out Meszaros, cover half, and get a third line winger in the process.
That sounds about right.

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09-29-2013, 02:11 PM
  #129
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Eklund also said Hall could be on the move along with a defensemen (assuming Mez).

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09-29-2013, 02:14 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Eklund also said Hall could be on the move along with a defensemen (assuming Mez).
To cover the vacancy created by a forward leaving our trade partner's roster possibly.

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09-29-2013, 02:19 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CS View Post
I expect we ship out Meszaros, cover half, and get a third line winger in the process.
That's probably accurate. I wouldn't mind claiming Powe off waivers if there is caproom to play on the 3rd or 4th line.

EDIT: Or maybe the Downie rumors were accurate...

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Vincent Lecavalier ($4.500m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Steve Downie ($2.650m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Wayne Simmonds ($3.975m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.750m) / Scott Laughton ($1.107m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m)
Jay Rosehill ($0.675m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Mark Streit ($5.250m)
Luke Schenn ($3.600m) / Braydon Coburn ($4.500m)
Erik Gustafsson ($1.000m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Bruno Gervais ($0.825m) /
GOALTENDERS
Ray Emery ($1.650m)
Steve Mason ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buyout: Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
Buyout: Chris Pronger ($0.000m)
RETAINED SALARY TRANSACTIONS (3.110% of upper limit)
Andrej Meszaros ($2.000m—50.0%)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,649,594; BONUSES: $2,800,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $3,450,406

I did a compliance buy-out for Pronger because I couldn't figure in the LTIR so I don't know how that affects the outcome. Also I recalled Gervais but I guess Gil could get a contract or someone else maybe comes back in the Colorado deal but I wasn't sure who that was.


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Old
09-29-2013, 02:32 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Well I'll keep this scenario in mind and be on the lookout for a situation to see what people's reactions are in the future. Haha.
You do that.

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He looked "ok" in four games this preseason with everyone other than certain players is now what we are going with for Gus? Throughout his illustrious career spanning across three seasons, he has looked I would say average at his absolute best, and he has not shown that consistently throughout this incredibly large sample size. Wellwood, I think is a pretty good comparison...a guy who has looked average or ok for part of his NHL time, and not so average or ok for other parts. I wouldn't put (a healthy) Wellwood out there based on his career thus far if there was a veteran option coming off an injury.
No I said he's looked at least OK (next time you might want to put the at least part in quotes since that's kind of important) and I wasn't talking about during the preseason as he didn't even play with Gervais in the preseason, I was talking about the past two years.

And Wellwood is not a good comparison, he's played about half as many games as Gus (which as you love to point out isn't very many) and again didn't have nearly as much responsibility during that time. I also think Gus has looked good (like finishing last season) while Wellwood never did, outside of four games with Richards.

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Once again, obviously if he earned the spot, that is a different story, but you don't earn the spot by looking ok in a parts of parts of a couple seasons.
No you earn a spot by being OK years earlier before an injury riddled mess apparently. No one is claiming you earn a spot by looking OK, he needs to be given an opportunity to look more then OK. Having 60 NHL games over the past two years isn't really an opportunity.

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If that is the tack you are taking then why not play McGinn, Raffl, and so forth. See what we have this year and deal with it in the offseason if guys aren't working out. Why make that exception for Gus but not McGinn? We need a third line winger and McGinn is young and has shown promise. Put him out there and just see how he does. If that doesn't work call up Raffl and see how he does. If that doesn't work call up Akeson so that we know what we have. That isn't how it works unless you are committing to a rebuild. You ice the best team based on what they do on the ice. Not their age. Not their contract. Not anything else. Again, if Lavi thinks Gus earned that spot, then ok. Suit 'em up and I'll shut my mouth. But I just don't think he has.
What veterans are McGinn, Raffl and so forth at least as good as and significantly cheaper then? As of right now it looks like Talbot is going to take that last top nine spot and he's a significantly better player who contributes on pk and is a leader in the locker room. Again not a good comparison, you're reaching.

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So trade Mez. I have no problem with that. I have been expecting and advocating for that since pretty much day one this offseason. But if they are both on the team and under the cap, that is a different story. Trading a player because of a bad contract and injury concerns is fine. Not playing a guy on your team because of bad contracts and injury concerns is not a good idea IMO. And in terms of seeing what we have in Gus, I think we know. A bottom pairing defenseman. If Mez wasn't in the picture I would have no problem with Gus being there. But Mez is here for now.
And you're entitled to your opinion, I'm of the opinion that a younger player who has been just as good recently (though he was better in the preseason) and could be with the organization beyond this year should get the ice time and opportunity to grow?

It's become pretty clear this whole issue stems from the fact that you think Mez is a better player now then Gus when I don't think that's the case. I doubt I'll be able to change you're mind on this matter so whatever I guess.

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Oh crap. I take back everything I said.
Good one. I was pointing out that this isn't just Flyers fans being homers or over hyping one of their young guys. After last season and the world championship, more then a few hockey people would take Gus over Mez.

Btw I hate to bring this up (not really) but I told myself I would when the time was right. Are you now willing to admit you were wrong about Eriksson? You said once he played on NA ice you would admit you were wrong, well he had a good camp/exhibition game with Van and is expected to be in the AHL this year.

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09-29-2013, 02:34 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CS View Post
I expect we ship out Meszaros, cover half, and get a third line winger in the process.
This would be nice. I really don't want Talbot in the top 9.

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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Eklund also said Hall could be on the move along with a defensemen (assuming Mez).
If they wanted him why didn't they pick him up off waivers?

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's probably accurate. I wouldn't mind claiming Powe off waivers if there is caproom to play on the 3rd or 4th line.

EDIT: Or maybe the Downie rumors were accurate...


I did a compliance buy-out for Pronger because I couldn't figure in the LTIR so I don't know how that affects the outcome. Also I recalled Gervais but I guess Gil could get a contract or someone else maybe comes back in the Colorado deal but I wasn't sure who that was.
Downie wasn't a rumor it was just some Flyers fans asking what it would take to get him cause they didn't really want Mitchell. Avs fans responded with Coburn or a 1st rounder. I don't think giving up a legit asset like Coburn, a 1st or any of our top prospects for Downie would be a good idea. Though a line of Downie-Couturier-Read would be pretty great together I would think.


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Old
09-29-2013, 02:48 PM
  #134
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Not interested in Downie given his recent major knee injury and his history of stupid penalties. We're already likely to lead the league in penalty minutes, minors or both thanks to a coaching staff with no clue about defensive discipline or holding players accountable.

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09-29-2013, 03:37 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
No I said he's looked at least OK (next time you might want to put the at least part in quotes since that's kind of important) and I wasn't talking about during the preseason as he didn't even play with Gervais in the preseason, I was talking about the past two years.
Well you got it half right. You did say "at least ok" but you also did say that it was this preseason...here's your statement: "Gus on the other hand has looked at least ok with everyone outside of Gervais and Gill this preseason." Either way, I think saying he looked at least ok is not really a good bench mark when we are talking about a total of 60 games. Even if I agree that in all 60 games he has looked at least ok (which I don't), when he has been better than "ok" he hasn't been that much better. It's not like sometimes he is just ok and other times he is a legit top four defender. For the most part, he's been an average, run of the mill bottom pair guy. Has he had good games? Sure. But overall, he's nothing special at this point.

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And Wellwood is not a good comparison, he's played about half as many games as Gus (which as you love to point out isn't very many) and again didn't have nearly as much responsibility during that time. I also think Gus has looked good (like finishing last season) while Wellwood never did, outside of four games with Richards.
If you can use 60 NHL games to make your call on Gus, I think a guy that has played 22 less is an ok comparison.

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No you earn a spot by being OK years earlier before an injury riddled mess apparently. No one is claiming you earn a spot by looking OK, he needs to be given an opportunity to look more then OK. Having 60 NHL games over the past two years isn't really an opportunity.
??? For the majority of Mez's NHL career he has been a legitimate top four defender. He has had years that he hasn't looked like that, but for the most part, he's played like a top four defender. Like entire seasons...not stretches during 60 games maybe that could be considered top four caliber. And again, you don't get the opportunity to be an NHL player just because you want to see what you have if there are other options. That is what you do when you are rebuilding. You are saying he should get the spot because you want to see if he can be more than ok. That doesn't sound like a good plan to me. And again, why not do it with other players then?

Quote:
What veterans are McGinn, Raffl and so forth at least as good as and significantly cheaper then? As of right now it looks like Talbot is going to take that last top nine spot and he's a significantly better player who contributes on pk and is a leader in the locker room. Again not a good comparison, you're reaching.
I don't know, man, I'd really like to see what we have in these guys. Sure Talbot is better, but McGinn and Raffl haven't been given a chance to show that they are better. I guess the only difference here is that you don't think Mez is better (which I imagine is based on his 11 games last year, because before he got hurt the year before I don't think it is really in dispute that Mez was better than Gus at that point).

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And you're entitled to your opinion, I'm of the opinion that a younger player who has been just as good recently (though he was better in the preseason) and could be with the organization beyond this year should get the ice time and opportunity to grow?
Meh. Gus is what he is. He's got an outside chance to maybe one day be a top four guy. If he turns into that, great. If not, there are a number of guys that can replace him.

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It's become pretty clear this whole issue stems from the fact that you think Mez is a better player now then Gus when I don't think that's the case. I doubt I'll be able to change you're mind on this matter so whatever I guess.
Yeah, that's it.

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Good one. I was pointing out that this isn't just Flyers fans being homers or over hyping one of their young guys. After last season and the world championship, more then a few hockey people would take Gus over Mez.
Meh.

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Btw I hate to bring this up (not really) but I told myself I would when the time was right. Are you now willing to admit you were wrong about Eriksson? You said once he played on NA ice you would admit you were wrong, well he had a good camp/exhibition game with Van and is expected to be in the AHL this year.
I don't remember my exact words, but I don't think I ever said that I would admit I was wrong if he ever played a game in North America. That would be a pretty silly thing for me to say...and I have said a lot of silly things in my day. I probably said I would admit I was wrong if he became a starter (or at least a backup) in the NHL. But if I did say that, then yes I was wrong. Though I don't think I said that.

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09-29-2013, 03:50 PM
  #136
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What about this kind of deal:

Talbot
2nd round pic
Meszaros

for

McGinn
Downie

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09-29-2013, 03:54 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayB View Post
What about this kind of deal:

Talbot
2nd round pic
Meszaros

for

McGinn
Downie
Avs would never do that.

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09-29-2013, 03:58 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by JayB View Post
What about this kind of deal:

Talbot
2nd round pic
Meszaros

for

McGinn
Downie
That's brutally bad for Colorado.

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09-29-2013, 03:59 PM
  #139
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I really don't want to move Talbot anyway. I agree he's not 3rd line material but I don't get why some people are so easy to ship him out of here.


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09-29-2013, 04:10 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Well you got it half right. You did say "at least ok" but you also did say that it was this preseason...here's your statement: "Gus on the other hand has looked at least ok with everyone outside of Gervais and Gill this preseason." Either way, I think saying he looked at least ok is not really a good bench mark when we are talking about a total of 60 games. Even if I agree that in all 60 games he has looked at least ok (which I don't), when he has been better than "ok" he hasn't been that much better. It's not like sometimes he is just ok and other times he is a legit top four defender. For the most part, he's been an average, run of the mill bottom pair guy. Has he had good games? Sure. But overall, he's nothing special at this point.
There should have been a coma after Gill. It completely changes the connotation of the sentence but I didn't think twice being as though Gus and Gervais never played together this preseason I wrongfully assumed you'd know I was referring to his entire stay in the NHL.

And again at least OK when not with Gervais which was a decent amount of games last year. I'm not saying Gus never played bad, that would be ludicrous all players have bad games.

Again I think this is where our difference of opinion about Mez comes into play. You say Gus has been about average, well I think he's been better then Mez so what does that say about Mez?

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If you can use 60 NHL games to make your call on Gus, I think a guy that has played 22 less is an ok comparison.
Well that's about forty percent less but OK. Secondly you've completely ignored the whole aspect of responsibility. Wellwood spent the vast majority of his time in a bottom six role with limited minutes while Gus has played a special teams role (limited) while getting a little under 19 minutes of ice time a game. It's really not the same.

Quote:
??? For the majority of Mez's NHL career he has been a legitimate top four defender. He has had years that he hasn't looked like that, but for the most part, he's played like a top four defender. Like entire seasons...not stretches during 60 games maybe that could be considered top four caliber. And again, you don't get the opportunity to be an NHL player just because you want to see what you have if there are other options. That is what you do when you are rebuilding. You are saying he should get the spot because you want to see if he can be more than ok. That doesn't sound like a good plan to me. And again, why not do it with other players then?
Well if Mez didn't play with Chara in the beginning of his career, I doubt that would be the case. As soon as he left Ottawa, everyone started noticing the holes in his game. And again if Gus isn't given the opportunity to play more games then how can you compare them like that?

I already explained why this isn't the same as with McGinn and Raffl. McGinn and Raffl are not as good any other roster players right now, Gus on the other hand is just as good as Mez (actually if the preseason and the last yr plus are any indication he's better).

Quote:
I don't know, man, I'd really like to see what we have in these guys. Sure Talbot is better, but McGinn and Raffl haven't been given a chance to show that they are better. I guess the only difference here is that you don't think Mez is better (which I imagine is based on his 11 games last year, because before he got hurt the year before I don't think it is really in dispute that Mez was better than Gus at that point).
Yes I'm basing this on more then just last years 11 games. Others have disputed this using stats you apparently don't like that. Mez was playing extremely sheltered minutes on the 3rd pairing. That's the only time he's played well in Philly. I would argue Gus would do just as well in that situation and use advanced stats to back it up but again you don't like those.

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Meh. Gus is what he is. He's got an outside chance to maybe one day be a top four guy. If he turns into that, great. If not, there are a number of guys that can replace him.
I agree, I won't argue he is a top 4 d-man. Just that he's at least as good as Mez who himself isn't a top 4 d-man.

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Yeah, that's it.
Well then I don't even know why I'm responding you at all at this point.

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Meh.
Believe what you want

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I don't remember my exact words, but I don't think I ever said that I would admit I was wrong if he ever played a game in North America. That would be a pretty silly thing for me to say...and I have said a lot of silly things in my day. I probably said I would admit I was wrong if he became a starter (or at least a backup) in the NHL. But if I did say that, then yes I was wrong. Though I don't think I said that.
Well you did. I would dig up the old threads but honestly I had that conversation with you more then a few times so I wouldn't even know where to look and frankly I don't care enough.

edit: I'll send this entire message to you via pm so we don't have to keep cluttering up this thread.

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Old
09-29-2013, 04:17 PM
  #141
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And that's fine. If Lavi is in the same camp, that Gus earned the spot. Great. I've been saying that all along. If Gus earns the spot, it is his. I'm not too sure I agree with you on that. I think they have been about the same throughout form what I have seen. And with that, like I've been saying, Mez would get the nod for the reasons previously stated.



Time will tell. These are questions that need to be answered for Gus as well (though just substitute injury concerns with experience concerns). Which again leads me back to the previously mentioned benefit of the doubt.



If you are so concerned with cap hits...isn't $4 million in the press box worse than $4 million on the third pair?

I also want to not that I agree with you that if someone is going to be moved, it should be Mez. But if no one is moved, I think Mez gets the nod.
As far as I can tell it's Mez or Gus for the #6 spot. I would much, much prefer Gus in that role than a banged up Mez earning 4 million. Screw the press box, at that cap hit if he can't perform in a top 4, ideally top pairing role, he has no place on the roster.

Believe it or not, I actually like Mez. I just don't see a spot for him on the team. We already have WAY too many question marks; Timonen (for second half), Streit (we don't know how he'll do, frankly), Mason and Emery. We really don't need another, especially since it seems Lavi is the biggest question mark of all.

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09-29-2013, 04:37 PM
  #142
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So we are going to trade Mez, sign Gill, then watch as Kimmo gets an injury and we get to run with:

Streit Schenn
Gus Coburn
Grossmann Gill
Gervais

GULP!!!!!

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09-29-2013, 04:45 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
So we are going to trade Mez, sign Gill, then watch as Kimmo gets an injury and we get to run with:

Streit Schenn
Gus Coburn
Grossmann Gill
Gervais

GULP!!!!!
In the case of one of the top being out for an extended period of time I would think one of Lauridsen or Alt would get the call. I can't imagine the team is comfortable with Gill having to play for long periods of time.

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09-29-2013, 04:57 PM
  #144
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**** no to Downie, good lord.

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Old
09-29-2013, 05:38 PM
  #145
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Wish there was a way we could have got in on Mathieu Perreault. Would have dealt with the role later as the Flyers don't seem adverse to having 10 centers. Keep forgetting realignment is a thing and the Caps are in the division.

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09-29-2013, 05:46 PM
  #146
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Wish there was a way we could have got in on Mathieu Perreault. Would have dealt with the role later as the Flyers don't seem adverse to having 10 centers. Keep forgetting realignment is a thing and the Caps are in the division.
Yeah, I made the same mistake concerning new divisions.

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09-29-2013, 06:33 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
As far as I can tell it's Mez or Gus for the #6 spot. I would much, much prefer Gus in that role than a banged up Mez earning 4 million. Screw the press box, at that cap hit if he can't perform in a top 4, ideally top pairing role, he has no place on the roster.
Why does salary matter if both guys are already on the team? And if Gus really is up to the task moreso than Mez is, well find out it in short time and Gus will be in there anyway. But again, neither player has excelled this preseason, so why give it to the unproven young guy? That has been my point all along. Why not go with the vet who at least has shown in his career he can play well. Gus playing decent in 60 games is not enough to me for him to get the nod over Mez with the preseason that both have had. Gus hasn't looked good, neither has Mez. But Mez has the resume to at least give credence to his being out there. Gus doesn't have that.

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Believe it or not, I actually like Mez. I just don't see a spot for him on the team. We already have WAY too many question marks; Timonen (for second half), Streit (we don't know how he'll do, frankly), Mason and Emery. We really don't need another, especially since it seems Lavi is the biggest question mark of all.
I think Gus out there is also a question mark. This goes to my point of Gus getting a lot of undeserved love. If Mez is a question mark because he is coming off an injury, why is a guy who has played 60 decent NHL games over three seasons not a question mark?

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09-29-2013, 06:36 PM
  #148
Beef Invictus
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Why does salary matter if both guys are already on the team? And if Gus really is up to the task moreso than Mez is, well find out it in short time and Gus will be in there anyway. But again, neither player has excelled this preseason, so why give it to the unproven young guy? That has been my point all along. Why not go with the vet who at least has shown in his career he can play well. Gus playing decent in 60 games is not enough to me for him to get the nod over Mez with the preseason that both have had. Gus hasn't looked good, neither has Mez. But Mez has the resume to at least give credence to his being out there. Gus doesn't have that.
Salary matters because that's 4 million dollars that can be put elsewhere...like, in case we need to upgrade in net (which looks likely). It's 4 million unnecessary dollars, especially if he's in the press box because of his recent crap play. It's completely pointless to have that. This is the cap age. You can't just carry extra cap hits for fun.

Just because "it's already on the roster" doesn't mean we should accept it. In fact, it should be made to go away. The team is tight against the cap and could use a little safety net.

And as for "why not go for the vet.." Have you noticed he's been injured for two straight years now? Like, constantly injured with new and exciting things. Two of them are major injuries that can have a huge impact on a hockey player; most troublingly, those weren't freak injuries either, they occurred from normal wear and tear...that's highly alarming. I honestly have no idea how you can justify keeping Mez around based on his preseason play where he was not only slow but making horrible decisions, and based on his very troubling injury history, as well as his cap hit. If anybody offers anything at all he should be traded.


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I think Gus out there is also a question mark. This goes to my point of Gus getting a lot of undeserved love. If Mez is a question mark because he is coming off an injury, why is a guy who has played 60 decent NHL games over three seasons not a question mark?
They're both question marks. But it's not like they're gonna be on the top pairing. They'll be bottom pairing guys. I'll go with the reasonably priced question mark. Mez has shown no indication of being a puck moving guy who can bomb shots from the blue line, which we really need. Gus can at least do that. Right now, I haven't seen anything at all that Mez does well and the team has way too many problems to let him spend 20 games working out the kinks while hoping he doesn't get hurt again in the process.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 09-29-2013 at 06:42 PM.
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09-29-2013, 06:42 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
That sounds about right.
That sounds dumb. Again we only need to lose cap space for 1 day. Why lose a top 6 dman for left overs and lose more cap space.

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09-29-2013, 06:47 PM
  #150
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That sounds dumb. Again we only need to lose cap space for 1 day. Why lose a top 6 dman for left overs and lose more cap space.
Because we have a hole in the lineup on the third line and because, at this point, it is difficult to argue that Meszaros is any better suited to the #6D role than Gustafsson, which he would have to be, given his price tag?

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