HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Hockey Fights
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Hockey Fights Discuss and rate hockey fights and fighters of today and from the past. Videos welcome!

End of fighting in the NHL?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-29-2013, 08:53 AM
  #176
AntsSheffield
Registered User
 
AntsSheffield's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 198
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
It already is banned. It isn't allowed in the game. There is a 5 minute penalty for it.
Make it a match penalty, IMO

AntsSheffield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 09:07 AM
  #177
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Its the media, they won't focus on it because it doesn't fit their agenda. Three enforcers die in one summer and all of the sudden the media jumped on their graves like a fat kid on a smartie, trying to pinpoint fighting as the reason behind it. Meanwhile there are dozens of former players who dropped the mitts often enough who are doing well, with good jobs and a great mind. Some of them coach(ed) in the NHL. One of them is among the most important people in the game (Shanahan).



It is a little confusing to me here. You "like" fighting in the game but believe it should go because of player safety. I hope you also want to take shot blocking, body checks and hard slap shots out of the game as well. All of those instances cause more injuries than two guys dropping the gloves. You are looking out for player safety yet you want the NHL to turn into the Women's hockey league which is like watching paint dry. t.
A thousand times this. I don't mind and can kind of respect people whose opposition to fighting is philosophical. What I will never respect are people who disingenuously say " its for player safety". Its a canard and they no it but will never admit it. These players they are apparently "concerned" about are the players they call talentless hacks and goons and wastes of roster spaces.

what's even more galling is that I suspect that many of the anti fighting crowd secretly WANT a player to die in a fight as they believe it will be the precipitating event to usher in their agenda. That's not only disingenuous, its morose.

If guys have beefs to settle, I'd much rather they do in in the least injurious consential way where there are defined rules of conduct that are largely self inforced.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 10:48 AM
  #178
Hockeymom1960
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1
vCash: 500
Can those of you who are against any type of fighting please state who you are so I can officially ignore you? Thanks!

Hockeymom1960 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 11:34 AM
  #179
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
what's even more galling is that I suspect that many of the anti fighting crowd secretly WANT a player to die in a fight as they believe it will be the precipitating event to usher in their agenda. That's not only disingenuous, its morose.
That's false, and it's absolutely reprehensible that you would say it.

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 12:20 PM
  #180
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
That's false, and it's absolutely reprehensible that you would say it.
So the people in this very thread opining about how players will die on he ice eventually, and that this will force the league to change are blowing smoke?

I sat through and watched the freaking vampires exploit the accident that took down Sanderson, I saw the people jump on the band wagon with the enforcers death all to willing to exploit these tragedies for self serving interests.

What is reprehensible is this manufactured concern for player safety in order to drive an agenda. People didn't give a piss about Sanderson and boogaard until they died then pretended like they were their best friends all the while passing up no opportunity to repeat lies about fights and players.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 12:38 PM
  #181
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
That's false, and it's absolutely reprehensible that you would say it.
So the people in this very thread opining about how players will die on he ice eventually, and that this will force the league to change are blowing smoke?

I sat through and watched the freaking vampires exploit the accident that took down Sanderson, I saw the people jump on the band wagon with the enforcers death all to willing to exploit these tragedies for self serving interests.

What is reprehensible is this manufactured concern for player safety in order to drive an agenda. People didn't give a piss about Sanderson and boogaard until they died then pretended like they were their best friends all the while passing up no opportunity to repeat lies about fights and players.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 01:06 PM
  #182
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 25,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Its the media, they won't focus on it because it doesn't fit their agenda. Three enforcers die in one summer and all of the sudden the media jumped on their graves like a fat kid on a smartie, trying to pinpoint fighting as the reason behind it. Meanwhile there are dozens of former players who dropped the mitts often enough who are doing well, with good jobs and a great mind. Some of them coach(ed) in the NHL. One of them is among the most important people in the game (Shanahan).
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=2526...s=topStory_nhl

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=252547

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=261215

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie/?id=252684

There are more articles about Cherepanov on TSN but I would still be posting when you are reading this. I could do the same thing for other major networks. Your claim that no one cared about Cherepanov's death and the media didn't focus on it is false. The evidence shows that.

Of course when three players die in ONE summer, two of them, due to suicide of course the media is going to focus on it. They all shared the common characteristic of fighting. Rypien did have a long history of mental illness. However, Derek had CTE. Look at Probert, he also had CTE. Belak suffered from depression and that could have been caused from CTE.

Quote:
It is a little confusing to me here. You "like" fighting in the game but believe it should go because of player safety. I hope you also want to take shot blocking, body checks and hard slap shots out of the game as well. All of those instances cause more injuries than two guys dropping the gloves. You are looking out for player safety yet you want the NHL to turn into the Women's hockey league which is like watching paint dry. You have to stop trying to pretend that NHL hockey is a game for the faint of heart, it isn't all the time. It is a man's game, played by fast skating, highly competitive men. Collisions are encouraged, holding someone accountable is encouraged (fighting). This is the risk the players take for millions of dollars and they gladly do it. You aren't on the ice like they are. If it weren't for fighting in the game Wayne Gretzky wouldn't have had as much room out there to do his thing, and you can bet neither would Steve Yzerman. It's there for a reason, sometimes it is like a smoke detector and you are just glad to have it if you need it. Fighting - or even the potential of fighting - causes less injuries than if it were never around in the first place, so we can stop this "player safety" nonsense.
Brain injuries are a lot different than injuries you get from anything else in hockey. Broken nose, leg, arm etc can heal. A brain can't heal. Repeated blows to the head can lead to death at a very young age. The NFL has taken significant steps to decrease the amount of blows to the head a player receives. This after a fair amount of players have killed themselves. The NHL has done the same with outlawing hits to the head. If fighting only caused a few cuts, broken fingers, hands and noses then I would have no problem with it. However, when it can lead to significant brain injuries then I am worried about player safety.

The most popular hockey is international hockey. How many fights do they have? Playoff hockey also has hardly any fights.

As for enforces protecting star players. It doesn't work any more. Oilers brought back Mac and I was reading on the Oilers board where the Oilers missed more games to injuries when Mac was playing compared to when he was not.

Quote:
So then if you agree what is the issue? In a decade we haven't seen a drop in fighting at all and yet you are predicting an end to it.
I agree that there hasn't been much of a decrease in the last five years.


Last edited by canucksfan: 09-29-2013 at 05:12 PM.
canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 05:31 PM
  #183
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntsSheffield View Post
Make it a match penalty, IMO
Why? Can't the NHL be unique in its own way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=2526...s=topStory_nhl

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=252547

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=261215

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie/?id=252684

There are more articles about Cherepanov on TSN but I would still be posting when you are reading this. I could do the same thing for other major networks. Your claim that no one cared about Cherepanov's death and the media didn't focus on it is false. The evidence shows that.

Of course when three players die in ONE summer, two of them, due to suicide of course the media is going to focus on it. They all shared the common characteristic of fighting. Rypien did have a long history of mental illness. However, Derek had CTE. Look at Probert, he also had CTE. Belak suffered from depression and that could have been caused from CTE.

Brain injuries are a lot different than injuries you get from anything else in hockey. Broken nose, leg, arm etc can heal. A brain can't heal. Repeated blows to the head can lead to death at a very young age. The NFL has taken significant steps to decrease the amount of blows to the head a player receives. This after a fair amount of players have killed themselves. The NHL has done the same with outlawing hits to the head. If fighting only caused a few cuts, broken fingers, hands and noses then I would have no problem with it. However, when it can lead to significant brain injuries then I am worried about player safety.
Again, it is a rough game, very rough game. Keith Primeau had to retire because of concussions from a hit that he still gets headaches from here and there. I'm not sure if Bossy's back is great to this day either. Jeff Beukeboom got blindsided which led to his retirement. Steve Moore? None of these guys were hurt from fighting. Fighting is just a small part of how you can get injured. If you want to abolish fighting because of "player safety" you may as well be consistent and ensure that there isn't any contact from anyone at all, ever.

Even in the NFL there are still helmet to helmet hits unintentionally. It is a rough game, a fast game and a game where you have to think fast. Injuries will always happen, you cannot avoid them, that is something we have seen in the century we've watched hockey.

Quote:
The most popular hockey is international hockey. How many fights do they have? Playoff hockey also has hardly any fights.
International hockey is great. The European refereeing can be downright horrible though (I heard a bodycheck and a loud noise so that's a penalty) at the World Juniors. Taking fighting away can also suck up the emotion from a game. It doesn't mean there has to be a fight in the game for it to be entertaining. It just means that people are trying to make the game more for the faint of heart, and it isn't at all. Hockey is a rough sport. There weren't really fights in the Olympics recently, but there were in the 1996 World Cup, lots of them. Very, very entertaining hockey and just added to the hate factor for both teams.

As for the playoffs, fighting goes down when the stakes get higher for the most part. Then again so does goal scoring. Teams are always trying to be more conservative in all aspects of the game, so it is natural that these things will drop. However, in watching the Pens/Bruins series in 2013 I told a friend of mine that once the puck drops in Game 3 they should have Iginla or Cooke or someone line up and fight Lucic right away. Pittsburgh was being pushed around like toys by Boston and they aren't exactly a wimpy team to begin with. I remember seeing the Pens players flinching in those games. A fight - win or lose - could have changed the momentum of that series. Max Talbot did this for the Penguins against Philadelphia in 2009. So yeah, even in the postseason fighting has a place.

Quote:
As for enforces protecting star players. It doesn't work any more. Oilers brought back Mac and I was reading on the Oilers board where the Oilers missed more games to injuries when Mac was playing compared to when he was not.
Ask Sidney Crosby. Sure he hasn't had a catastrophic injury from a cheap shot, but how many times do we have to see him fend for himself on the ice.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 06:34 PM
  #184
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 25,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post

Again, it is a rough game, very rough game. Keith Primeau had to retire because of concussions from a hit that he still gets headaches from here and there. I'm not sure if Bossy's back is great to this day either. Jeff Beukeboom got blindsided which led to his retirement. Steve Moore? None of these guys were hurt from fighting. Fighting is just a small part of how you can get injured. If you want to abolish fighting because of "player safety" you may as well be consistent and ensure that there isn't any contact from anyone at all, ever.

Even in the NFL there are still helmet to helmet hits unintentionally. It is a rough game, a fast game and a game where you have to think fast. Injuries will always happen, you cannot avoid them, that is something we have seen in the century we've watched hockey.
Beukeboom had to retire from a sucker punch from Matt Johnson an enforcer. Primeau had 10+ concussions. Moore got suckered from Bertuzzi. Two of those players you mnetioned we from illegal plays. Decreasing concussions is the goal. Therefore one of the way to do that is to eliminate fighting.

Concusssions will still happen but we want to decrease them. The NFL has taken steps to do that.

Quote:
International hockey is great. The European refereeing can be downright horrible though (I heard a bodycheck and a loud noise so that's a penalty) at the World Juniors. Taking fighting away can also suck up the emotion from a game. It doesn't mean there has to be a fight in the game for it to be entertaining. It just means that people are trying to make the game more for the faint of heart, and it isn't at all. Hockey is a rough sport. There weren't really fights in the Olympics recently, but there were in the 1996 World Cup, lots of them. Very, very entertaining hockey and just added to the hate factor for both teams.
How many fights did the 96' WC have?

Quote:
As for the playoffs, fighting goes down when the stakes get higher for the most part. Then again so does goal scoring. Teams are always trying to be more conservative in all aspects of the game, so it is natural that these things will drop. However, in watching the Pens/Bruins series in 2013 I told a friend of mine that once the puck drops in Game 3 they should have Iginla or Cooke or someone line up and fight Lucic right away. Pittsburgh was being pushed around like toys by Boston and they aren't exactly a wimpy team to begin with. I remember seeing the Pens players flinching in those games. A fight - win or lose - could have changed the momentum of that series. Max Talbot did this for the Penguins against Philadelphia in 2009. So yeah, even in the postseason fighting has a place.
The more entertaining games, the playoff games, have very little fighting.

Quote:
Ask Sidney Crosby. Sure he hasn't had a catastrophic injury from a cheap shot, but how many times do we have to see him fend for himself on the ice.
Last year Steve MacIntrye was waived and they have no goons on their team this year. If Crosby wanted one they would get one.


Last edited by canucksfan: 09-29-2013 at 06:39 PM.
canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 07:31 PM
  #185
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Beukeboom had to retire from a sucker punch from Matt Johnson an enforcer. Primeau had 10+ concussions. Moore got suckered from Bertuzzi. Two of those players you mnetioned we from illegal plays. Decreasing concussions is the goal. Therefore one of the way to do that is to eliminate fighting.
Right. Except fighting had nothing to do with them having to retire. If anything, plays like this prove that fighting is important. Had Bertuzzi and Johnson just manned up and FACED their opponents none of this would have happened.

Quote:
How many fights did the 96' WC have?
Plenty of them in the Canadian games. Lindros schooled Kasparaitis. But the most fights were in the Canada/USA games. It is commonly thought that Keith Tkachuk's throwdown of Claude Lemieux in a fight is a turning point to the Americans - who were always the bridesmaids - not backing down from Canada.

Quote:
The more entertaining games, the playoff games, have very little fighting.
Fighting is one part of the game that brings out a lot of animosity. Hockey needs this and at times we sorely miss this in our game - animosity that is.


This isn't exciting? It wasn't exactly in the medieval times, it was 2013. The Habs had every single one of their players fall flat on their back, which is no wonder they lost the series badly. You're sure you enjoy a good fight? Doesn't sound like it.


Quote:
Last year Steve MacIntrye was waived and they have no goons on their team this year. If Crosby wanted one they would get one.
They don't need a goon. That is a word that the anti-fighting crowd likes to throw around. Bob Probert wasn't a goon. He was an enforcer who was a decent hockey player. He held the Red Wings single season playoff points record until Fedorov broke it. He played in an All-Star game. Dave Schultz had a 20 goal season once. Tie Domi once won a fastest skater competition among his Maple Leaf teammates. The pro-fighting crowd doesn't want guys who can't even skate backwards just so they can fight, but you can have players good enough to crack the top 4 lines that are still used as policemen. There is no way Probert would have ever let the crap that happens to Crosby happen to Yzerman. And you tell me there is not a need for fighting?

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 07:52 PM
  #186
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 25,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Right. Except fighting had nothing to do with them having to retire. If anything, plays like this prove that fighting is important. Had Bertuzzi and Johnson just manned up and FACED their opponents none of this would have happened.
Bertuzzi wanted to fight Moore so bad but Moore declined him as he already fought Cooke earlier in the game.

Concussions will happen when fighting is eliminated. However, there won't be as many because fighting will be gone.

Quote:
Plenty of them in the Canadian games. Lindros schooled Kasparaitis. But the most fights were in the Canada/USA games. It is commonly thought that Keith Tkachuk's throwdown of Claude Lemieux in a fight is a turning point to the Americans - who were always the bridesmaids - not backing down from Canada.
There were three fights. Two in the Canada/USA game and the Lindros one you mentioned. 3 fights in 19 games is not a lot. Most people believe the SC playoffs and international hockey are the most exciting games to watch where there is very little, if any fights.

Quote:
Fighting is one part of the game that brings out a lot of animosity. Hockey needs this and at times we sorely miss this in our game - animosity that is.


This isn't exciting? It wasn't exactly in the medieval times, it was 2013. The Habs had every single one of their players fall flat on their back, which is no wonder they lost the series badly. You're sure you enjoy a good fight? Doesn't sound like it.
That is exciting. I have never said fighting is not exciting. However, I can live without it so players limit the number of concussions they have.

Quote:
They don't need a goon. That is a word that the anti-fighting crowd likes to throw around. Bob Probert wasn't a goon. He was an enforcer who was a decent hockey player. He held the Red Wings single season playoff points record until Fedorov broke it. He played in an All-Star game. Dave Schultz had a 20 goal season once. Tie Domi once won a fastest skater competition among his Maple Leaf teammates. The pro-fighting crowd doesn't want guys who can't even skate backwards just so they can fight, but you can have players good enough to crack the top 4 lines that are still used as policemen. There is no way Probert would have ever let the crap that happens to Crosby happen to Yzerman. And you tell me there is not a need for fighting?
In today's game there is no need fighting. Pens just have Engelland and he had 6 fights last year. If Crosby thought he need protection they would pick some one up but they haven't.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 11:22 PM
  #187
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Bertuzzi wanted to fight Moore so bad but Moore declined him as he already fought Cooke earlier in the game.

Concussions will happen when fighting is eliminated. However, there won't be as many because fighting will be gone.
You say "when" a lot don't you?

Quote:
There were three fights. Two in the Canada/USA game and the Lindros one you mentioned. 3 fights in 19 games is not a lot. Most people believe the SC playoffs and international hockey are the most exciting games to watch where there is very little, if any fights.
Do you really think the reason the playoffs are exciting is because there are less fights? Not because of the drama itself?

Quote:
That is exciting. I have never said fighting is not exciting. However, I can live without it so players limit the number of concussions they have.
So what do you do when a fight comes on television?

Quote:
In today's game there is no need fighting. Pens just have Engelland and he had 6 fights last year. If Crosby thought he need protection they would pick some one up but they haven't.
They could have used some backbone last year against Boston. I don't understand how you refuse to see the role fighting still has in the game. Think about it from a player's standpoint. We are not on the ice with them, we are behind the glass, or even the TV. There obviously is a need for it if 96% of the players are still in favour of it. They are on the ice hearing the threats, dealing with the hits, the cheap shots. Fighting keeps players honest.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 12:12 AM
  #188
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 25,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
You say "when" a lot don't you?
The word when is a commonly used word and I do use it frequently.

Quote:
Do you really think the reason the playoffs are exciting is because there are less fights? Not because of the drama itself?
Definitely for the drama which leads me to believe fights aren't really needed for hockey to be exciting. They can add to the excitement, but like I said before, I care more about player safety, than I do about the small amount of entertainment value I might receive from watching a fight. I have illustrated numerous times in this thread the potential harm fighting can cause to players.

Quote:
So what do you do when a fight comes on television?
I watch it. You can visit the MMA section on this board and you will see my posts in there. You paint people with brushes and judge them before you hear their argument. If someone wants to get rid of fighting you assume they are someone that never watches hockey and hides or leaves the room when a fight comes on.

Quote:
They could have used some backbone last year against Boston. I don't understand how you refuse to see the role fighting still has in the game. Think about it from a player's standpoint. We are not on the ice with them, we are behind the glass, or even the TV. There obviously is a need for it if 96% of the players are still in favour of it. They are on the ice hearing the threats, dealing with the hits, the cheap shots. Fighting keeps players honest.
Toughness would have done jack. Pens scored two goals in four games. They couldn't score. That is why they lost. The Bruins lost to the Hawks who were a lot softer than the Pens. At one point fighting had a role but now it is a sideshow.

Give me examples where fighting keeps players honest.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 12:14 AM
  #189
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Again, it is a rough game, very rough game. Keith Primeau had to retire because of concussions from a hit that he still gets headaches from here and there. I'm not sure if Bossy's back is great to this day either. Jeff Beukeboom got blindsided which led to his retirement. Steve Moore? None of these guys were hurt from fighting. Fighting is just a small part of how you can get injured. If you want to abolish fighting because of "player safety" you may as well be consistent and ensure that there isn't any contact from anyone at all, ever.

Even in the NFL there are still helmet to helmet hits unintentionally. It is a rough game, a fast game and a game where you have to think fast. Injuries will always happen, you cannot avoid them, that is something we have seen in the century we've watched hockey.
In the early days of hockey, officials actually had to place the puck between the two centers for a faceoff. It ensured an absolutely fair placement between the two.

Why was this practice changed?

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 12:18 AM
  #190
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
So what do you do when a fight comes on television?
The same thing I'd do if a player started doing this:


Quote:
They could have used some backbone last year against Boston. I don't understand how you refuse to see the role fighting still has in the game. Think about it from a player's standpoint. We are not on the ice with them, we are behind the glass, or even the TV. There obviously is a need for it if 96% of the players are still in favour of it. They are on the ice hearing the threats, dealing with the hits, the cheap shots. Fighting keeps players honest.
Do other sports involve hits, threats, and cheap shots? Where are the fights?

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 09:05 AM
  #191
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
The same thing I'd do if a player started doing this:




Do other sports involve hits, threats, and cheap shots? Where are the fights?
The NHL is not other sports. What your asking is akinn to why don't they play football with bats and why can't you kick a field goal in the NBA?

You want guys sneakily settling scores? Facetting guys knees, biting and gouging in piles and throwing some Chinny chin chin. What happens to pitchers who don't protect teammates and rightfully plunk a guy? And the NBA would be a help of w lot better if when guys score and stand over guys and act to embarrass them, if they learned some humility at the end of a fist.

If you don't like fights, Watch the NCAA ( hope you like loose stick work), if you like the NFL and MBA so much that you want the Nhl to emulate them, against the overwhelming desires of the people who are willingly and knowingly accepting this minor risk ( in the context of far more injurious aspects of the sport) then change the channel.

I don't mind fights but my support for fights is not ties to this, and the day the players chose to ban it is the day I stop supporting it. I guess this is because I lack the sense if entitlement to think that ai understand the game better than the essential collective of players past and present. But different strokes for different folks.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 10:41 AM
  #192
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
The NHL is not other sports. What your asking is akinn to why don't they play football with bats and why can't you kick a field goal in the NBA?
You're grabbing at straws, which is about the closest you've come to grasping anything so far.

The NBA had a very long history of "enforcers" and "fights". The NFL is extremely physical and extremely emotional. The primary two arguments in favor of unrestricted fighting in the NHL are "tradition" and "emotion". Yet there are two direct parallels to other major leagues that refute the idea that fighting is an inherent outgrowth from either one of those. That's not about whatever moronic "point" you want to make about kicking field goals in the NBA.

Quote:
You want guys sneakily settling scores? Facetting guys knees, biting and gouging in piles and throwing some Chinny chin chin. What happens to pitchers who don't protect teammates and rightfully plunk a guy? And the NBA would be a help of w lot better if when guys score and stand over guys and act to embarrass them, if they learned some humility at the end of a fist.
I don't know what "facetting" is.

The NBA assesses technical fouls to players who taunt or display unsportsmanlike conduct toward another. Now, if you want to sit there and tell me that a 7', 300-pound giant throwing a punch at the face of someone else for the mere act of "standing over him" is acceptable, then I think it's safe to say every negative term that can be conjured up for the pro-fighting crowd can be applied in your case. I happen to find physical assault to be a great deal more reprehensible than something that is said or motioned, and I have hundreds of years of Western legal tradition backing me on that one.

After this, nothing else that you say can be taken seriously. Why stop at merely punching someone in the face? He's embarrassing you by "standing over you", why stop at a punch? Someone on ESPN might see this; you owe it to yourself and your teammates to go for a groin shot. Maybe clothesline the guy the next time he goes up for a layup; don't you know that he stood over you?

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 12:39 PM
  #193
Chrisinroch
Registered User
 
Chrisinroch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vouvray
Country: United States
Posts: 408
vCash: 500
Following this thread, I have to say "hats off to Mayor Bee". He keeps rising above the ad hominem baiting and returning the discussion to logic.

My point is that we can respectfully disagree with each other.

Chrisinroch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 12:47 PM
  #194
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
You're grabbing at straws, which is about the closest you've come to grasping anything so far.

The NBA had a very long history of "enforcers" and "fights". The NFL is extremely physical and extremely emotional. The primary two arguments in favor of unrestricted fighting in the NHL are "tradition" and "emotion". Yet there are two direct parallels to other major leagues that refute the idea that fighting is an inherent outgrowth from either one of those. That's not about whatever moronic "point" you want to make about kicking field goals in the NBA.



I don't know what "facetting" is.

The NBA assesses technical fouls to players who taunt or display unsportsmanlike conduct toward another. Now, if you want to sit there and tell me that a 7', 300-pound giant throwing a punch at the face of someone else for the mere act of "standing over him" is acceptable, then I think it's safe to say every negative term that can be conjured up for the pro-fighting crowd can be applied in your case. I happen to find physical assault to be a great deal more reprehensible than something that is said or motioned, and I have hundreds of years of Western legal tradition backing me on that one.

After this, nothing else that you say can be taken seriously. Why stop at merely punching someone in the face? He's embarrassing you by "standing over you", why stop at a punch? Someone on ESPN might see this; you owe it to yourself and your teammates to go for a groin shot. Maybe clothesline the guy the next time he goes up for a layup; don't you know that he stood over you?

I dont CARE about the NBA or the NFL. This idea that the NHL has to abandon one of the very aspects that makes the game unique in order to emulate other leagues that hockey fans DONT CARE ABOUT is a freaking fools errand. I care about hockey, and as long as I have cared about it ( and even longer) this means fights.

the NFL and the uber-physical NBA ( har de har har) have long tolerated biting, eye gouging, targetting a guys knees or " hard fouls" where a guy is in a vulnerable position in the air and you knock him off equilibrium so that he falls uncontrollably. Or when two hading the ball, if the guy is crowding you, pivot around and give him an elbow in the chops, and if it comes to blows just rest assured that other people will jump in and try to sucker you ( like they do in basebrawls where the most devastating blows come from guys not engaged suckering someone who is).

If this is they type of things YOU want to emulate, the 1) I dont think you DO have the players best interest in mind and 2) my opinion is the league would be a hell of a lot better off without fans of your ilk.

Im just wondering do you go to the opera and bellyache that none of the songs are in english ? Its not surprising that someone who seemingly wants to promote settling beefs by suckering somone is advocating groin shots. How very principled of you.

I have no problem that players who did the equivalent of what many NBA players do on the ice, would be not long for the nhl. And that's a good thing.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 01:37 PM
  #195
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I dont CARE about the NBA or the NFL. This idea that the NHL has to abandon one of the very aspects that makes the game unique in order to emulate other leagues that hockey fans DONT CARE ABOUT is a freaking fools errand. I care about hockey, and as long as I have cared about it ( and even longer) this means fights.
....is exactly the same argument that was made in favor of keeping six teams, the C Form, junior sponsorship in place of the draft, player choice in wearing helmets...

Quote:
the NFL and the uber-physical NBA ( har de har har) have long tolerated biting, eye gouging, targetting a guys knees or " hard fouls" where a guy is in a vulnerable position in the air and you knock him off equilibrium so that he falls uncontrollably. Or when two hading the ball, if the guy is crowding you, pivot around and give him an elbow in the chops, and if it comes to blows just rest assured that other people will jump in and try to sucker you ( like they do in basebrawls where the most devastating blows come from guys not engaged suckering someone who is).
Um, none of that is tolerated. Biting is a bit difficult with a facemask, and would be 15 yards and an ejection if it's seen. Eye gouging exists solely in the bottom of a pileup for a fumble, and isn't normally penalized because it's not seen. Do it in plain sight of the official and see how much longer you're playing, because it sure won't be the rest of that game.

The NBA has a system where hard fouls are immediately reviewed on replay to determine the severity of the penalty assessed and whether ejection is warranted.

Quote:
If this is they type of things YOU want to emulate, the 1) I dont think you DO have the players best interest in mind and 2) my opinion is the league would be a hell of a lot better off without fans of your ilk.
No, I'd much prefer a system where a perfectly clean hit is met by that guy getting jumped for having the unmitigated gall to make a legal play. I have nothing better to do than see two guys who can barely skate have a fistfight because of something that happened involving two unrelated players three months prior. I really like seeing a guy on a team down 5-1 late in a game start suckering guys and trying to goad them into a fight to "send a message".

I've said before that if you want to see whether something is ridiculous, see how it looks in a youth league or beer league. Watch that 8-year-old cross-check a guy in the back because he was within 10 feet of the goalie when the whistle blew.

Quote:
Im just wondering do you go to the opera and bellyache that none of the songs are in english ? Its not surprising that someone who seemingly wants to promote settling beefs by suckering somone is advocating groin shots. How very principled of you.
I don't go to the opera, nor do I go to musicals, wine tastings, or the country club. I live on a farm, thank you, and the soybeans will be ready to harvest in the next couple of weeks.

Prisons are full of people doing hard time for murder, attempted murder, aggravated assault, manslaughter, and a host of other felonies that far too often stemmed from one basic reason: the other person disrespected me. I've already said that responding to something verbal or a gesture with violence is reprehensible, and you said above (" And the NBA would be a help of w lot better if when guys score and stand over guys and act to embarrass them, if they learned some humility at the end of a fist.)" that responding with violence is not only acceptable, but necessary ? But I'm the one who has issues?

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 01:58 PM
  #196
billybudd
5 Mike Rupps
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,523
vCash: 500
If fighting is going to be back-doored out of the game, it better come in concert with a completely different approach to calling the charging penalty. As in: if a player throws a bodycheck with some intention other than bumping someone away from the puck, in a world without fighting, that needs to be a (possibly suspendable) charge.

Otherwise, you're just going to see an arms race of rats like Zac Rinaldo taking the place of goons (answering cheap shots with cheap shots, instead of cheap shots with fights), which is going to result in a lot more people (and people more important to league viewership) on IR than you ever had when Stu Grimson or Jeff Odgers had that roster spot as the 12th forward.

If you ask me, neither future for the NHL (no hard hitting)/(an ever-increasing rat infestation) is an improvement over the status quo.

billybudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 04:15 PM
  #197
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
....is exactly the same argument that was made in favor of keeping six teams, the C Form, junior sponsorship in place of the draft, player choice in wearing helmets...
you know what the nhl has that the others dont ? changing on the fly. Should we play whistle to whistle to emulate these sports as well ? Because its only the NHL that changes players on the fly, its not so important lets just make if defined substituions to be more like the NFL and the NBA.

The things you mention dont change the game directly and if you dont think that football players bite fingers or, how completely emulatable try ,to gouge eyes that's laughable. So your fine with players taking liberties so long as you dont have to witness them ? That your problem with fighting is not that it is injurious its so graphic that it offends your delicate sensibilities ? if only players in the nhl could only do the manly think and cloak the way they settle beefs and take liberties, then everything would be peachy ?

irrespective of when you became a fan of the nhl, you became a fan of a league with fighting. If this makes you feel so icky that you feel compelled to act the squeaky wheel, I'm sure you can find a no check pick up league somewhere to follow.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 04:59 PM
  #198
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
you know what the nhl has that the others dont ? changing on the fly. Should we play whistle to whistle to emulate these sports as well ? Because its only the NHL that changes players on the fly, its not so important lets just make if defined substituions to be more like the NFL and the NBA.
Which is funny considering that both leagues have overhauled their substitution rules repeatedly over the years.

Quote:
The things you mention dont change the game directly and if you dont think that football players bite fingers or, how completely emulatable try ,to gouge eyes that's laughable. So your fine with players taking liberties so long as you dont have to witness them ? That your problem with fighting is not that it is injurious its so graphic that it offends your delicate sensibilities ? if only players in the nhl could only do the manly think and cloak the way they settle beefs and take liberties, then everything would be peachy ?
You're talking to someone who suffered two dislocated fingers and a permanent floater in his left eye (almost right in the middle of my field of vision) from being at the bottom of a pileup for a fumble. Quite frankly, I don't want to hear a word about "delicate sensibilities", or an education on what happens in football.

Quote:
irrespective of when you became a fan of the nhl, you became a fan of a league with fighting. If this makes you feel so icky that you feel compelled to act the squeaky wheel, I'm sure you can find a no check pick up league somewhere to follow.
So when the playoffs or Olympics are on, do you prefer UFC or WWE?

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 05:31 PM
  #199
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
In the early days of hockey, officials actually had to place the puck between the two centers for a faceoff. It ensured an absolutely fair placement between the two.

Why was this practice changed?
I don't know, now they throw it down at center ice. What is the point your are trying to reach here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Definitely for the drama which leads me to believe fights aren't really needed for hockey to be exciting. They can add to the excitement, but like I said before, I care more about player safety, than I do about the small amount of entertainment value I might receive from watching a fight. I have illustrated numerous times in this thread the potential harm fighting can cause to players.
Sure a game without a fight is still an exciting game. I don't think people really argue that, but there are a whole world of problems that can happen if fighting goes the way of the dodo bird.

Quote:
I watch it. You can visit the MMA section on this board and you will see my posts in there. You paint people with brushes and judge them before you hear their argument. If someone wants to get rid of fighting you assume they are someone that never watches hockey and hides or leaves the room when a fight comes on.
Do you want MMA banned? I'm not an MMA fan, but it is very ironic that you are pushing for the end of fighting in the NHL because of player safety when you watch MMA.

Quote:
Toughness would have done jack. Pens scored two goals in four games. They couldn't score. That is why they lost. The Bruins lost to the Hawks who were a lot softer than the Pens. At one point fighting had a role but now it is a sideshow.
They were pushed around like rag dolls that series. A fight at the drop of the puck would have set a different tone for the game and it certainly would have thrown the Bruins off. Imagine Iginla dropping Lucic like a stone at the beginning of Game 3, that would have quieted the crowd. I am not saying the Pens necessarily win, but that would have at least been something to try since nothing else was working. Conversely, the Pens probably win in 2012 against the Flyers if someone on the Pens takes Hartnell or one of the other Flyers aside and slaps him around for picking on Crosby - who was completely being thrown off his game that series (his fault). You keep asking why there is a need for fighting and I continually bring up examples from playoff years gone by.

Quote:
Give me examples where fighting keeps players honest.
You can ask the commander in chief in the NHL that question. I can clearly remember a time when he was with the Rangers (Shanahan) and he dropped the mitts with Brashear because he kept bothering Jagr. And if you asked Jagr at the end of the game how he felt I'll bet you dollars to donuts he was glad Shanahan did this.

Keep asking, I'll give you precise examples every time. What you are unable to do is prove that it "doesn't" keep players honest.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 06:19 PM
  #200
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 25,202
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I

Sure a game without a fight is still an exciting game. I don't think people really argue that, but there are a whole world of problems that can happen if fighting goes the way of the dodo bird.
Like what? College hocky has very few fights. I don't see them having problems. I do see the NHL having problems.

Quote:
Do you want MMA banned? I'm not an MMA fan, but it is very ironic that you are pushing for the end of fighting in the NHL because of player safety when you watch MMA.
I would like the UFC to look into reducing concussions. Same thing I want the NHL to do.

Quote:
They were pushed around like rag dolls that series. A fight at the drop of the puck would have set a different tone for the game and it certainly would have thrown the Bruins off. Imagine Iginla dropping Lucic like a stone at the beginning of Game 3, that would have quieted the crowd. I am not saying the Pens necessarily win, but that would have at least been something to try since nothing else was working. Conversely, the Pens probably win in 2012 against the Flyers if someone on the Pens takes Hartnell or one of the other Flyers aside and slaps him around for picking on Crosby - who was completely being thrown off his game that series (his fault). You keep asking why there is a need for fighting and I continually bring up examples from playoff years gone by.
You are bringing up examples but they are completely useless. The Pens scored TWO goals. The Pens played poor offensively and defensively. No amount of fighting would have done them good. Do magically increase their offensive and defensive skills when a fight happens. The worst Canucks era I had to watch so far was the Keenan era. That team was tough. The lead the league in fighting and no one pushed them around. Guess where they finished?

Quote:
You can ask the commander in chief in the NHL that question. I can clearly remember a time when he was with the Rangers (Shanahan) and he dropped the mitts with Brashear because he kept bothering Jagr. And if you asked Jagr at the end of the game how he felt I'll bet you dollars to donuts he was glad Shanahan did this.

Keep asking, I'll give you precise examples every time. What you are unable to do is prove that it "doesn't" keep players honest.
So we have a goon picking on a star player and a HHOF has to defend the star player from a goon. This is the kind of crap I want gone. Thank you for showing that example for proving my point.

canucksfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:15 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.