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Niedermayer vs Chara

View Poll Results: Who was better?
Scott Niedermayer 59 54.63%
Zdeno Chara 46 42.59%
Even 3 2.78%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-29-2013, 04:07 PM
  #126
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
How could I argue with anything as arbitrarily vague and subjective as that?
So then you don't disagree that Niedermayer took a major step up in 2003 and that he wasn't the same player before then?

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09-29-2013, 04:20 PM
  #127
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So then you don't disagree that Niedermayer took a major step up in 2003 and that he wasn't the same player before then?
That's not even the argument, lol. It's a matter of how his play from the '02/03 playoffs onward compares to his play leading up to the 3 years of clearly, and demonstrably, dealing with injuries. After all, in '03 he merely stepped back into the same role he worked his way up to by age 20, and held for the next 6 or 7 seasons leading into those 3 years in question. The last 3 of those seasons just happen to compare very favourably offensively with the best in the game during that time - forget about the defensive side, work load, and team results completely for the moment. So how "major" was this "step" in '03, if we compare it to '98 or '99 instead of '01? That's the part I submit people are having trouble reconciling, for various reasons.

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09-29-2013, 04:25 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
That's not even the argument, lol. It's a matter of how his play from the '02/03 playoffs onward compares to his play leading up to the 3 years of clearly, and demonstrably, dealing with injuries. After all, in '03 he merely stepped back into the same role he worked his way up to by age 20, and held for the next 6 or 7 seasons leading into those 3 years in question. The last 3 of those seasons just happen to compare very favourably offensively with the best in the game during that time - forget about the defensive side, work load, and team results completely for the moment.
Niedermayer's role never changed. Sometimes around 1996, he solidified himself as the anchor of the Devils' second pairing, a role he kept until Scott Stevens' concussion issues in 2003-04. His quality of play varied quite a bit during this time; sure injuries were a part of it, but Niedermayer is far from the only player to suffer from injuries; in fact, I would say his injury issues were quite a bit less severe than most players dealt with.

Back to the topic of the thread, the case for Chara is that he was an elite/top 5 defenseman for quite a bit longer than Niedermayer. So the fact that Niedermayer was not a top 5 defenseman (nor really even close) before 2003 is quite relevant.

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09-29-2013, 04:35 PM
  #129
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Back to the topic of the thread, the case for Chara is that he was an elite/top 5 defenseman for quite a bit longer than Niedermayer. So the fact that Niedermayer was not a top 5 defenseman (nor really even close) before 2003 is quite relevant.
Leaving the definition of "elite/top 5 defenseman" alone for a moment, let me agree that it's relevant. Also relevant, is a common belief that depending on where you arbitrarily make your cut-off (be it 3, or 5, or 8, or 10), it's possible to show that the number of quality of players, and the number of quality seasons they had in the years in question, might not necessarily be tilted so much in the '03-onward group's "favour" compared to those of the pre-2000 group.

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09-29-2013, 06:17 PM
  #130
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this is my thinking, but i'm totally open to TDMM or ohashi or whomever else to disagree.

'93-'95-- devils win a cup and make it within a matteau 2OT goal of the finals the year before: niedermayer is something like beauchemin in the niedermayer/pronger years. good young defenseman, taking on minutes beyond what his experience would suggest, tethered to a superstar at his peak, not yet a top 30 d-man in the league.

'96-'99-- anchored second pairing, limited playoff success (by the whole team), a couple of meh offensive years, a couple of pretty good offensive years. second team all-star one year.** but even at his best during this stretch, i don't think he's offensively elite. to invoke what rhiessan said above, niedermayer wasn't in the same league offensively as the best of his generation at this point: blake (who had a couple of injury plagued years sandwiching his norris win during this stretch, but was offensively elite before and after it), lidstrom, ozolinsh, and zubov would have been considered the best offensive d-men of niedermayer's age group at this point. niedermayer, even in his 57 point year, would have been considered a step below them (because they would hit that mid-50s ballpark routinely, year-in, year-out, and sometimes top it significantly). talking just offensively, this niedermayer (not the post-03 one)... is he any better than steve duchesne, jeff brown, mathieu schneider, even teppo numminen? defensively, most reports say niedermayer was still inconsistent and somewhar raw. they're not poor years, but is niedermayer really any better than alexei zhitnik during the same stretch (or, another comparison, peak jovanovski)? he's not yet at desjardins's level, let alone lidstrom's or blake's.

'00-'03-- great team success. niedermayer is overtaken by rafalski offensively. one year is marred by a holdout/injury/suspension. eats heavy minutes, isn't offensively elite, comparable to numminen or, say, current dan hamhuis? obviously something clicked between the regular season and playoffs because the niedermayer we saw after that was a totally different, take-charge guy we hadn't seen before except in brief tantalizing spurts.

then we have peak niedermayer, which was an amazing thing.



** re: '98, looking at the voting, that was the first season in 18 years that at least one of bourque, coffey, macinnis, stevens, chelios, and leetch wasn't a post-season all-star. in eight out of the previous nine seasons, at least three of those guys were post-season all-stars. it had been sixteen years since there weren't at least two of them made the post-season all-star teams. i wonder if at least part of the niedermayer vote that year was due to voters pushing for a brand new generation overtaking those same six guys who had dominated the all-star voting for as long as i'd been alive.


whereas i think chara being a late-bloomer is overstated. chara is a top ten d-man in the league (according to norris/AST voting) by 25. he consistently is top five by 26 and remains top five today, three years after niedermayer played his last game. other than the one blip in '98, niedermayer doesn't hit a high level wrt his peers until 29. which is to say, once chara really got going as a regular NHLer at 23, he got going fast.

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09-29-2013, 06:48 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
is he any better than steve duchesne, jeff brown, mathieu schneider, even teppo numminen? ... is niedermayer really any better than alexei zhitnik during the same stretch (or, another comparison, peak jovanovski)?
Having watched him skate, move the puck, and score goals during the entire period in question? Absolutely, each one of them, and easily at that (and you're talking to a Habs fan who saw as much as anyone of prime Schneider AND Desjardins). Being forced to limit my opinion to what can be elucidated from spreadsheets? Much more difficult to answer.

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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
'00-'03-- great team success. niedermayer is overtaken by rafalski offensively. one year is marred by a holdout/injury/suspension. eats heavy minutes, isn't offensively elite, comparable to numminen or, say, current dan hamhuis? obviously something clicked between the regular season and playoffs because the niedermayer we saw after that was a totally different, take-charge guy we hadn't seen before except in brief tantalizing spurts.
You guys see "overtaken by rafalski offensively", I see allowed to push the envelope offensively in a secondary role against opponents' secondary units on a team that primarily lived and died on Stevens' and Niedermayer's 25-30 minutes/night more than anything else. They carried the team, and Rafalski made the most of his chance to exploit powerplay opportunities during the rest of the 35 minutes that everyone else had to share. Comparable to Numminen or Hamhuis? Maybe their style sort of reminds me of him, kind of, and maybe if I knew nothing about them but saw them close to each other on a scoring list I might see even more, but what am I reading??

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09-29-2013, 06:50 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Having watched him skate, move the puck, and score goals during the entire period in question? Absolutely, each one of them, and easily at that (and you're talking to a Habs fan who saw as much as anyone of prime Schneider AND Desjardins). Being forced to limit my opinion to what can be elucidated from spreadsheets? Much more difficult to answer.



You guys see "overtaken by rafalski offensively", I see allowed to push the envelope offensively in a secondary role against opponents' secondary units on a team that primarily lived and died on Stevens' and Niedermayer's 25-30 minutes/night more than anything else. They carried the team, and Rafalski made the most of his chance to exploit powerplay opportunities during the rest of the 35 minutes that everyone else had to share. Comparable to Numminen or Hamhuis? Maybe their style sort of reminds me of him, kind of, and maybe if I knew nothing about them but saw them close to each other on a scoring list I might see even more, but what am I reading??
you act like none of the rest of us watch hockey...

also alexei zhitnik was awesome.

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09-29-2013, 06:58 PM
  #133
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I think that Numminen and Jovanovski are good comparables for pre-2003 Niedermayer. All different styles, but similar quality guys - consistently very good defensemen, regulars on the national teams, but not at the level where you would consider them superstars or gamechangers.

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09-29-2013, 07:31 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
you act like none of the rest of us watch hockey...

also alexei zhitnik was awesome.
Sometimes I suspect that others "see" hockey while I'm "watching" it. But yeah, Zhitnik was awesome. So were Numminen and Jovo Cop. And yet in terms of skill, production, and success, none of them match up with Niedermayer. They certainly have little to nothing between them making their case for them.

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09-29-2013, 07:37 PM
  #135
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I think that Numminen and Jovanovski are good comparables for pre-2003 Niedermayer. All different styles, but similar quality guys - consistently very good defensemen, regulars on the national teams, but not at the level where you would consider them superstars or gamechangers.
I'm really surprised that you, of all people, keep referring to "pre-2003 Niedermayer". Remember in 1998 when he was added to the all star voting list before even signing the contract that ended his 3 week hold out? That's how highly he was regarded, and that's obviously 5 years before 2003. Here's another quote that took 3 seconds to find with google, from 1999 after shutting down Jagr and the Pens:

"Niedermayer had a simple explanation for raising his game to a higher level. ''This is the playoffs and it's the time to have fun and play, play your best,'' said Niedermayer, who has led the Devils' defensemen in scoring the last four years.

Niedermayer has been perceived as one of the league's most talented offensive defensemen. His skating ability and fluidity in carrying the puck into the attacking zone are his strengths. His intelligence in guiding the power play has drawn raves from teammates and opponents.

Because he is so gifted offensively, Niedermayer's defensive abilities and strength are often overlooked. He rarely gets beaten one-on-one, he anticipates well and he can be physical when the need arises.

''First and foremost, offense is my game,'' Niedermayer said. ''But at the same token, defense is my primary job. That's what I focus on.'
'"

Which is amusing, because reading some of these posts, you'd swear his defense was so good that you'd forget about his offense, lol. You know what, I'm gonna one-up that, and roll all the way back to 1995, when Niedermayer was re-signed:

"It was believed that one of the factors that prompted Niedermayer to re-sign was a discussion he had with Coach Jacques Lemaire about being able to improvise more offensively.

During his first two seasons with the Devils, Niedermayer concentrated on defense. In the playoffs last season -- especially during the finals against the Red Wings -- he was a marvel to watch leading an offensive attack. He is considered one of the top offensive defensemen in the league.
"

So yeah, "major jump" from being one of the best defensive-turned-offensive defensemen between '95 and '00 (which has been amusingly categorically denied by plenty of posters in this thread), and one of the best defensemen period between '03 and '09.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 09-29-2013 at 08:01 PM.
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09-29-2013, 07:59 PM
  #136
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Not to hijack the thread, but I've always said that Niedermayer was in the same tier as Desjardins up until 2003...and personally (maybe I'm biased as a Rangers fan), I thought Desjardins was the better defenseman in that period of time. Wondering what other people think of that comparison.

No question that Niedermayer took his play to a HOF level after 03 though.

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09-29-2013, 08:03 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'm really surprised that you, of all people, keep referring to "pre-2003 Niedermayer". Remember in 1998 when he was added to the all star voting list before even signing the contract that ended his 3 week hold out? That's how highly he was regarded, and that's obviously 5 years before 2003. Here's another quote that took 3 seconds to find with google, from 1999 after shutting down Jagr and the Pens:

"Niedermayer had a simple explanation for raising his game to a higher level. ''This is the playoffs and it's the time to have fun and play, play your best,'' said Niedermayer, who has led the Devils' defensemen in scoring the last four years.

Niedermayer has been perceived as one of the league's most talented offensive defensemen. His skating ability and fluidity in carrying the puck into the attacking zone are his strengths. His intelligence in guiding the power play has drawn raves from teammates and opponents.

Because he is so gifted offensively, Niedermayer's defensive abilities and strength are often overlooked. He rarely gets beaten one-on-one, he anticipates well and he can be physical when the need arises.

''First and foremost, offense is my game,'' Niedermayer said. ''But at the same token, defense is my primary job. That's what I focus on.'
'"

Which is amusing, because reading some of these posts, you'd swear his defense was so good that you'd forget about his offense, lol.
That's one game and you kinda missed quoting the most relevant line... "Particularly impressive was the way Scott Niedermayer and Scott Stevens handled Jaromir Jagr"

It also talks about how good he is offensively, that he led the Devil's D in scoring the last 4 seasons and how that is supposedly "his game".

Well, lets see how that holds up shall we?
The 4 seasons leading up to this article where he led the Devil's D in scoring during them...
Raw points 15th
PpG 18th

Yep, you're right, this is sooo impressive that I am completely changing my mind on the way I rank Niedermayer offensively, especially pre-2003


I think Devil nailed it with the pre-2003 Niedermayer = Boumeester comparison earlier.


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09-29-2013, 08:07 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sometimes I suspect that others "see" hockey while I'm "watching" it.


PM me your ring so that i can kiss it

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09-29-2013, 08:09 PM
  #139
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Not to hijack the thread, but I've always said that Niedermayer was in the same tier as Desjardins up until 2003
Sure, absolutely same ball park offensively early on, with Desjardins obviously looking really good in the comparison in '00 and '01. Of course, instead of 3 years continuing to make progress through his prime, Niedermayer was forced to take a few steps back at age 27 for a few years until he was able to get back to '00 form and go from there. When you look at the defensive side of the puck in Philadelphia back then, btw, it was primarily the forwards and guys other than Desjardins who were locking it down in the defensive zone; similar story back on the Canadiens around the time of their Cup win.

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09-29-2013, 08:09 PM
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PM me your ring so that i can kiss it
Doesn't work that way. Pay for the plane ticket and line up like everyone else.

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09-29-2013, 08:12 PM
  #141
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So if I show you a list of top point-getting defensemen for the 3 years ('97/98-'99/00) leading up to his hold out, the knee surgery, the concussion, the back injury, and then the pinched neck nerve (i.e. the time frame you showed where he finished 23rd in points while missing 42 games), and I show you that Niedermayer's point production was almost exactly equal to Pronger and Blake (8th overall during the time frame, with guys like Murphy ahead of him with 3 more points in 20 more games played), and higher than half the players you just listed, will you just as easily concede that he was a "top offensive defenseman for years leading up to his brief injury derailment? I mean, he's 2nd only to Lidstrom in points over the rest of his career from there, so these are the only questions we're left asking.

Of course not, right? The injury-affected stretch of years between '99/00 and '02/03 when he still managed to be incredibly relevant (25 minute/night defender) are obviously more representative of Niedermayer's quality over his career than the 10+ years that bookend it...
Yeah but 1998 was sort of an outlier for him at that time. 57 points, and then nothing like that until his Norris year. It wasn't as if he missed a lot of time either up until 2003, he was usually healthy and 2000-'01 was the only time he played less than 71 games in a season (57 that year). So it isn't as if he can even use the excuse that Pronger can of missing a lot of time.

He just wasn't there yet. I don't know why, maybe it was a confidence thing, but for a guy with his remarkable skill he should have figured things out earlier than 30 years old. That was the thing with him, time has really helped him for whatever reason. Pierre Maguire once placed him 7th among defenseman of all-time after his 2007 Conn Smythe. It is crazy. He gets incredibly overrated and I can't see evidence as to why he is better than Blake during his time, let alone Chara who we are speaking about.

His production in the 2003 playoffs just came out of nowhere really. No one would have predicted he wins a Norris in 2004 either. Don't you find that strange at all? This is how the hockey world saw him at one point. Talented, but never living up to his full potential, and being possibly the 3rd best defenseman on his team. Good, yes, but not elite or great.

Why is it hard for you to believe that it took him until he was 30 to become a star?

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09-29-2013, 08:14 PM
  #142
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Sure, absolutely same ball park offensively early on, with Desjardins obviously looking really good in the comparison in '00 and '01. Of course, instead of 3 years continuing to make progress through his prime, Niedermayer was forced to take a few steps back at age 27 for a few years until he was able to get back to '00 form and go from there. When you look at the defensive side of the puck in Philadelphia back then, btw, it was primarily the forwards and guys other than Desjardins who were locking it down in the defensive zone; similar story back on the Canadiens around the time of their Cup win.
It didn't affect him that much.

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09-29-2013, 08:15 PM
  #143
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Yeah but 1998 was sort of an outlier for him at that time. 57 points, and then nothing like that until his Norris year. It wasn't as if he missed a lot of time either up until 2003, he was usually healthy and 2000-'01 was the only time he played less than 71 games in a season (57 that year). So it isn't as if he can even use the excuse that Pronger can of missing a lot of time.

He just wasn't there yet. I don't know why, maybe it was a confidence thing, but for a guy with his remarkable skill he should have figured things out earlier than 30 years old. That was the thing with him, time has really helped him for whatever reason. Pierre Maguire once placed him 7th among defenseman of all-time after his 2007 Conn Smythe. It is crazy. He gets incredibly overrated and I can't see evidence as to why he is better than Blake during his time, let alone Chara who we are speaking about.

His production in the 2003 playoffs just came out of nowhere really. No one would have predicted he wins a Norris in 2004 either. Don't you find that strange at all? This is how the hockey world saw him at one point. Talented, but never living up to his full potential, and being possibly the 3rd best defenseman on his team. Good, yes, but not elite or great.

Why is it hard for you to believe that it took him until he was 30 to become a star?
I guess you have talked about New Jerseys defensive system allready? Can you link me to a good reply about this, having trouble figuring that out for a long time.

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09-29-2013, 08:18 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sure, absolutely same ball park offensively early on, with Desjardins obviously looking really good in the comparison in '00 and '01. Of course, instead of 3 years continuing to make progress through his prime, Niedermayer was forced to take a few steps back at age 27 for a few years until he was able to get back to '00 form and go from there. When you look at the defensive side of the puck in Philadelphia back then, btw, it was primarily the forwards and guys other than Desjardins who were locking it down in the defensive zone; similar story back on the Canadiens around the time of their Cup win.
Seriously? You can actually say this with a straight face considering the way the Devil's forwards Niedermayer played with went about their business and that Stevens was quite easily handling the much greater share of the overall defensive responsibilities from the back end.

C;mon, this is just getting silly now.

And I don't know what Habs team you were watching win the Cup in '93 but Desjardins was most freakin certainly the goto guy in every defensive situation on that team.

Who are you going to me were the ones "locking it down" in Desjardins place? Schneider, Odelein, Daigneault, Brisebois, Haller??? Please!

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09-29-2013, 08:21 PM
  #145
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Who are you going to me were the ones "locking it down" in Desjardins place? Schneider, Odelein, Daigneault, Brisebois, Haller??? Please!
Muller, Keane, Carbonneau, Skrudland, and yes, Haller, Odelein, and Daigneault. Yes, as the best defenseman on the team, he got more than enough regular shifts. Don't remember seeing these other guys taken off in favour of Desjardins in defensive situations, though. In Montreal he seemed to get out whenever it was his regular turn or the powerplay. Philadelphia used him a lot more during the end of his stint there, but they had to. Wow was their defense otherwise horrible. Therrien, McGillis, and Eaton 20 min/night guys? Ouch. Luke Richardson in his prime though!


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09-29-2013, 08:23 PM
  #146
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Yeah but 1998 was sort of an outlier for him at that time...

Why is it hard for you to believe that it took him until he was 30 to become a star?
Because as early as 1995 (well before the '98 "outlier"), and right up until 1999, he's lauded as one of the best offensive defensemen in the league, who played some of the most minutes on one of the best defensive teams in a defensive era, and already had two Cup rings to show for it.

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09-29-2013, 08:31 PM
  #147
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Muller, Keane, Carbonneau, Skrudland, and yes, Haller, Odelein, and Daigneault.
Well first off, Skrudland wasn't there, so that's strike 1 on your "story" there.
Strike 2 is mentioning Haller (rookie) and Odelein (one year removed rookie) and neither at that time were even close to the solid D-men they became later on.
Strike 3 is Daigneault, who was a decent 4-5 D-man who's biggest strength was mobility. A defensive stalwart he was not!

And AGAIN, trying to make a case for this as some kind of argument against Niedermayer of all people, considering the teams and systems he was playing for, is about as hypocritical as you can get.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Because as early as 1995 (well before the '98 "outlier"), and right up until 1999, he's lauded as one of the best offensive defensemen in the league, who played some of the most minutes on one of the best defensive teams in a defensive era, and already had two Cup rings to show for it.
Yeah...I think I debunked this notion pretty hardcore already.
But hey, I'm fair. You wanna say from '95-'99...
16th in raw points
24th in PpG


Quite frankly, anyone who was lauding Niedermayer "as one of the best offensive D-men in the League" in 1998-99 was talking out of his ass period! There is absolutely no support for such a conclusion, ZERO!


Last edited by Doctor No: 09-29-2013 at 08:46 PM. Reason: Flaming
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09-29-2013, 08:42 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Well first off, Skrudland wasn't there, so that's strike 1 on your "story" there.
Strike 2 is mentioning Haller (rookie) and Odelein (one year removed rookie) and neither at that time were even close to the solid D-men they became later on.
Strike 3 is Daigneault, who was a decent 4-5 D-man who's biggest strength was mobility. A defensive stalwart he was not!
Don't know what to tell you. I know Skrudland wasn't there for the playoffs. Shouldn't have mentioned him instead of Leeman, Leclair, or Ronan when I directly referred to the Cup run. Don't know what to tell you about Odelein, Haller, and Daigneault, other than if you go back and watch those playoffs, you'll see each of them on very regular shifts. You'll also see Brisebois out there, too, and too often for my liking but whatever.

{mod}


Last edited by Killion: 09-29-2013 at 08:46 PM. Reason: not reqd...
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09-29-2013, 08:45 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Quite frankly, anyone who was lauding Niedermayer "as one of the best offensive D-men in the League" in 1998-99 was talking out of his ass period! There is absolutely no support for such a conclusion, ZERO!
You had enough yet?
Well the spreadsheets have spoken! Thank god. Oh wait, there's still the part where he produced top 8 points (the "calibre" of which is described as "top" by every source you'll find from the time) to go along with what could only be described as elite defense over 3 solid years before getting hit by a barrage of injuries.


Last edited by Doctor No: 09-29-2013 at 08:46 PM. Reason: Flaming
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09-29-2013, 08:47 PM
  #150
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Next one in this thread with a personal attack gets an infraction and a thread ban.

Come on, people.

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