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Niedermayer vs Chara

View Poll Results: Who was better?
Scott Niedermayer 59 54.63%
Zdeno Chara 46 42.59%
Even 3 2.78%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-29-2013, 08:53 PM
  #151
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Don't know what to tell you. I know Skrudland wasn't there for the playoffs. Shouldn't have mentioned him instead of Leeman, Leclair, or Ronan when I directly referred to the Cup run. Don't know what to tell you about Odelein, Haller, and Daigneault, other than if you go back and watch those playoffs, you'll see each of them on very regular shifts. You'll also see Brisebois out there, too, and too often for my liking but whatever.

Leeman was not even remotely a defensive player.
Ronan was a 4th line rookie getting limited minutes, mostly playing because of the spot opened up by Savard's injury.
LeClair was far from the player he would become, a solid 2-way winger at best then.

So how about you just don't try and tell me anything. Not only do I have all 20 games from '93 on tape still but also, I was there in person in game 3 in Buffalo and Game 2 in Montreal vs the Isles.

Lets just move on amd get back to Niedermayer vs Chara shall we?

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09-29-2013, 08:57 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Leeman was not even remotely a defensive player.
Ronan was a 4th line rookie getting limited minutes.
LeClair was far from the player he would become, a solid 2-way winger at best then.

So how about you just don't try and tell me anything. Not only do I have all 20 games from '93 on tape still but also, I was there in person in game 3 in Buffalo and Game 2 in Montreal vs the Isles.

Lets just move on amd get back to Niedermayer vs Chara shall we?
Then surely you have prepared a list of the penalty killing minutes that everyone played, as well as zone starts, and surely it reads:

Desjardins: all
Everyone else: none

Would be glad to get back to Niedermayer vs Chara instead, though. I've been trying to pay attention to football all day, and the extra tangents getting added into this conversation are admittedly more than I feel like juggling right now.

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09-29-2013, 09:00 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Then surely you have prepared a list of the penalty killing minutes that everyone played, as well as zone starts, and surely it reads:

Desjardins: all
Everyone else: none

Would be glad to get back to Niedermayer vs Chara instead, though.
At least Desjardins was actually viewed as the #1 guy and getting the nod in defensive situations ahead of any other D-man on that team.

Can't say the same for Niedermayer I'm afraid.

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09-29-2013, 09:07 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
At least Desjardins was actually viewed as the #1 guy and getting the nod in defensive situations ahead of any other D-man on that team.

Can't say the same for Niedermayer I'm afraid.
Yeah, because Stevens' presence actually made Niedermayer less of a player than Desjardins...

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09-29-2013, 09:25 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Yeah, because Stevens' presence actually made Niedermayer less of a player than Desjardins...
Look dude, everything I have said has been to counter something you said in the first place.

YOU tried to diminish Desjardins based on the forwards he played, the system they played under and the rest of his D-corps he played with.

The POINT was that turning around and using this exact same metric for Niedermayer shows that he had even more support from his forwards and team system, not to mention that Nieds wasn't even called on to be THE guy defensively in the first place.

As far as "What the spreadsheets say"...
by all means if you can show us all another metric to use that actually supports the statement that Niedermayer was amongst the best offensive d-men in the League, we are all eyes and ears friend.


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Old
09-29-2013, 10:50 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Not to hijack the thread, but I've always said that Niedermayer was in the same tier as Desjardins up until 2003...and personally (maybe I'm biased as a Rangers fan), I thought Desjardins was the better defenseman in that period of time. Wondering what other people think of that comparison.

No question that Niedermayer took his play to a HOF level after 03 though.
I thought Desjardins was a clear step up from pre-2003 Niedermayer, mainly because he was more consistent defensively. But then, I think Desjardins is incredibly underrated in retrospect due to his non-flashy game.

I don't think it's hijacking the thread, because as underrated as Desjardins was, he wasn't at the same level as Chara has been for a long time now (or Niedermayer was post-2003).

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09-29-2013, 11:45 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I guess you have talked about New Jerseys defensive system allready? Can you link me to a good reply about this, having trouble figuring that out for a long time.
A good reply about what? Their system? It was a system that favoured defense, especially under Jacques Lemaire. Is this what you are looking for?

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Because as early as 1995 (well before the '98 "outlier"), and right up until 1999, he's lauded as one of the best offensive defensemen in the league, who played some of the most minutes on one of the best defensive teams in a defensive era, and already had two Cup rings to show for it.
Look, I'll even cherry pick things for you. 1995-'00 here were the highest scoring defensemen in the NHL. This is before Niedermayer missed 25 games in 2000-'01. It still doesn't scream "elite" to me and there weren't any signs of him breaking out for good then either.

Lidstrom - 313
Leetch - 294
Bourque - 289
Zubov - 259
........
........
.........
......
Duchesne - 210
15th Niedermayer - 209

He was still considerably far back from the truly offensive elite. Less than Svehla, Numminen. Barely more than Kevin Hatcher and Boris Mironov. Lumme had the same PPG as he did during this time. That sort of corroborates the way I was looking at things. He wasn't showing signs of coming of age.

To top it off, despite being on a strict defensive system in New Jersey he wasn't as good defensively as people like to remember at that time. He had breakdowns.

Throw all that together, the eye test, the memory test, his offensive numbers, his Norris finishes pre-2004 and it ties into what I remember so much about him at that time, he was a tease with his talent and he didn't show it to the world at the time.

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09-30-2013, 12:37 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I guess you have talked about New Jerseys defensive system allready? Can you link me to a good reply about this, having trouble figuring that out for a long time.
I'm not sure what you want to know either?

How a Trap works in general or how the Devil's employed their version?

The first Trap employed regularily in the NHL was by Bowman with the Habs in the 70's. It however was a much more aggressive version than what you mainly see today. It was used in combination with a solid forecheck to put pressure on the puck carrier from Habs blueline out to the opposing goalline. The focus of that Trap was to cause turnovers and fuel quick counter attacks.

Lemaire, as we all know was one of Bowman's players on those Habs teams, took it and employed it in a much more conservative manner (although, it should be noted that Lemaire's Trap was not as conservative as other's we have seen, notably Hitchcock's and Guy Boucher's versions which greatly reduce the priority of the forecheck.)

Lemaire's version still left some priority on forechecking just not at the same level as Bowman had employed. Where the main difference was was that while Bowman's Trap was designed to cause turnovers for counter attacks, Lemaire's was designed to force the opposing team to willingly give up possession, force them to dump and chase. This combined with Brodeur's incredible puck handling skills made for a lethal combo.
It wasn't that the Devil's were supermen in their own zone, albeit they were quite good in this department, it was that gaining possession in their zone in the first place was incredibly tough.

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09-30-2013, 12:39 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I'm not sure what you want to know either?

How a Trap works in general or how the Devil's employed their version?

The first Trap employed regularily in the NHL was by Bowman with the Habs in the 70's. It however was a much more aggressive version than what you mainly see today. It was used in combination with a solid forecheck to put pressure on the puck carrier from their blueline out. The focus of that Trap was to cause turnovers and fuel quick counter attacks.

Lemaire, as we all know was one of Bowman's players on those Habs teams, took it and employed it in a much more conservative manner (although, it should be noted that Lemaire's Trap was not as conservative as other's we have seen, notably Hitchcock's and Guy Boucher's versions which greatly reduce the priority of the forecheck.)

Lemaire's version still left some priority on forechecking just not at the same level as Bowman had employed. Where the main difference was was that while Bowman's Trap was designed to cause turnovers for counter attacks, Lemaire's was designed to force the opposing team to willingly give up possession, force them to dump and chase. This combined with Brodeur's incredible puck handling skills made for a lethal combo.
It wasn't that the Devil's were supermen in their own zone, albeit they were quite good in this department, it was that gaining possession in their zone in the first place was incredibly tough.
To add to this, the version of the Trap that the Devils used when Larry Robinson was coach was much more similar to Bowman's original version than it was to Lemaire's. Under Robinson, the counterattack was heavily stressed (indeed the Devils were actually better offensively than defensively under Robinson), and defensemen were much more active in the attack.

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09-30-2013, 12:55 AM
  #160
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To add to this, the version of the Trap that the Devils used when Larry Robinson was coach was much more similar to Bowman's original version than it was to Lemaire's. Under Robinson, the counterattack was heavily stressed (indeed the Devils were actually better offensively than defensively under Robinson), and defensemen were much more active in the attack.
And it comes down to a question of personnel as well. The 2000-01 Devil's had a real good mix of good offensive players with a ton of speed throughout the lineup where the '95 Devil's had a more blue collar element.

Like if you are the '96 Panther's, you certainly aren't going to employ an aggressive Trap looking for counter attacks when your top offensive player is Scott Melanby

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09-30-2013, 01:02 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought Desjardins was a clear step up from pre-2003 Niedermayer, mainly because he was more consistent defensively. But then, I think Desjardins is incredibly underrated in retrospect due to his non-flashy game.

I don't think it's hijacking the thread, because as underrated as Desjardins was, he wasn't at the same level as Chara has been for a long time now (or Niedermayer was post-2003).
Pretty much my opinion as well, just wanted to know if others shared it.

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09-30-2013, 02:17 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
To add to this, the version of the Trap that the Devils used when Larry Robinson was coach was much more similar to Bowman's original version than it was to Lemaire's. Under Robinson, the counterattack was heavily stressed (indeed the Devils were actually better offensively than defensively under Robinson), and defensemen were much more active in the attack.
And that's the thing that makes me want to pull my hair out when I hear the stereotyping of the Devils as "that trap team". It was really only super conservative under Lemaire. The were much more aggressive and offensively minded under Robinson and Ftorek.


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09-30-2013, 02:19 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
The first Trap employed regularily in the NHL was by Bowman with the Habs in the 70's.
Even further back than that. I was talking to Killion and picking his brain about systems and he was telling me that the Leafs were regularly using a form of the trap back in the '60s. I never knew that.

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09-30-2013, 03:45 AM
  #164
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stats and awards are useless without context. great 1 player has so many votes for this, and so many for that, doesn't mean anything without proper perspective.

I just simply reject this idea that Niedermayer wasn't considered a top player until 2003/2004 because there is evidence to the contrary, plus I think we can make the case playing on NJ at the time he did, impacted the types of numbers he put up and held him back from some of his true strengths as a player. why is it when he switches teams and systems, he immediately started posting monster numbers? because that was always inside him.

Why were teams falling all over themselves to offer him max contracts as soon as he became a free agent, if he supposedly only had this 1 great season?

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09-30-2013, 03:56 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
A good reply about what? Their system? It was a system that favoured defense, especially under Jacques Lemaire. Is this what you are looking for?



Look, I'll even cherry pick things for you. 1995-'00 here were the highest scoring defensemen in the NHL. This is before Niedermayer missed 25 games in 2000-'01. It still doesn't scream "elite" to me and there weren't any signs of him breaking out for good then either.

Lidstrom - 313

Leetch - 294
Bourque - 289
Zubov - 259
........
........
.........
......
Duchesne - 210
15th Niedermayer - 209
interesting.
compare the numbers of niedermayer in anaheim to lidstrom in detroit during the same time period and the difference in PPG is only .1 over a large sample size of games. pretty odd that niedermayer can go toe to toe with the best dman of his generation offensively, in his mid to late 30's once he changes teams

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09-30-2013, 04:00 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
I just simply reject this idea that Niedermayer wasn't considered a top player until 2003/2004 because there is evidence to the contrary, plus I think we can make the case playing on NJ at the time he did, impacted the types of numbers he put up and held him back from some of his true strengths as a player. why is it when he switches teams and systems, he immediately started posting monster numbers? because that was always inside him.
Considering that Lemaire was gone after 1997-98 and the Devils jumped to #2 in the league in scoring under Ftorek is that really the case that the "system" was holding him back?

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09-30-2013, 08:27 AM
  #167
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Going back and looking at the voting record I was actually surprised at how much better Desjardins fared in the Norris and All-Star voting than Niedermayer from 95-03. Seems pretty clear the voters routinely saw him as the better player during that time period.

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09-30-2013, 09:45 AM
  #168
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Going back and looking at the voting record I was actually surprised at how much better Desjardins fared in the Norris and All-Star voting than Niedermayer from 95-03. Seems pretty clear the voters routinely saw him as the better player during that time period.
Desjardins is routinely underrated.

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09-30-2013, 12:32 PM
  #169
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my memory is desjardins was considered the fourth best guy of that generation in the late 90s/early 2000s. it was the group of pronger, lidstrom, and blake, then desjardins, then the pack.

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09-30-2013, 12:36 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Look, I'll even cherry pick things for you. 1995-'00 here were the highest scoring defensemen in the NHL. This is before Niedermayer missed 25 games in 2000-'01. It still doesn't scream "elite" to me and there weren't any signs of him breaking out for good then either.

Lidstrom - 313
Leetch - 294
Bourque - 289
Zubov - 259
........
........
.........
......
Duchesne - 210
15th Niedermayer - 209

He was still considerably far back from the truly offensive elite. Less than Svehla, Numminen. Barely more than Kevin Hatcher and Boris Mironov. Lumme had the same PPG as he did during this time. That sort of corroborates the way I was looking at things. He wasn't showing signs of coming of age.

To top it off, despite being on a strict defensive system in New Jersey he wasn't as good defensively as people like to remember at that time. He had breakdowns.

Throw all that together, the eye test, the memory test, his offensive numbers, his Norris finishes pre-2004 and it ties into what I remember so much about him at that time, he was a tease with his talent and he didn't show it to the world at the time.
If you really want to cherry pick, Niedermayer had almost exactly the same PPG as Leetch and Zubov (the "offensively elite"), and only about 7 points over 82 games away from the pace of guys like Blake, Gonchar, Bourque, Ozolinsh, and Housley while under Ftorek(/Robinson), leading up to the injuries, and the Devils were still a 100 point team with a Cup to show for it in the end.

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09-30-2013, 01:12 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
interesting.
compare the numbers of niedermayer in anaheim to lidstrom in detroit during the same time period and the difference in PPG is only .1 over a large sample size of games. pretty odd that niedermayer can go toe to toe with the best dman of his generation offensively, in his mid to late 30's once he changes teams
The difference between 0.71 and 0.81 doesn't seem like much but it is. It's pretty much the separation of a Tier.
And one also has to remember that while Lidstrom may be one of the top scoring D-men his generation, he was not what you would call an offensive D-man nor did he set the bar as high as previous generations or even as high as we are seeing today.

You are right though, switching teams definitely helped Scott's offense but there's actually a simple reason for that...The Ducks PP was much better than the Devil's.

The comparison of Scott's last 5 seasons with the Devil's compared to his next 5 with the Ducks shows that his ES scoring went down slightly but his PP scoring doubled.

NJ GP- 366 P-199 ES-131 (0.36) PP-65 (0.18)
AHN GP-371 P-264 ES-121 (0.33) PP-135 (0.36)

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09-30-2013, 01:15 PM
  #172
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Even further back than that. I was talking to Killion and picking his brain about systems and he was telling me that the Leafs were regularly using a form of the trap back in the '60s. I never knew that.
Goes way back before even that SP. Art Ross is credited with creating the Neutral Zone Trap which he employed in the NHL called Kitty Bar the Door. Employed to neutralize a more talented/faster opponent tactically. I suspect though that he likely "borrowed" it himself, jigged it a bit from his earlier days as a player. Ironically he had like a 40yr feud with Conn Smythe, they never spoke to one another at Board of Governors meetings etc, the Leafs themselves however "borrowing" Ross's tactics for most of their history circa 1930's through the 60's.

Punch Imlach was a disciple of said system hockey and upon his arrival in Toronto after a few games behind the bench, Smythe gushing over Punch's total team defense first approach to the game, that he was "making the exact moves I would". Smythe in fact not really giving a whole lot of respect to high flyers, creative players with a scoring touch. Some of them "flighty" or worse, "drinkers". Guys like Carl Brewer & Frank Mahovlich, later Mike Walton & several others having a real problem with such an approach & Imlachs system. Yes it was successful but was it "hockey as hockey was meant to be played"? Wide open, like shinny? Hardly. You played your lanes, D-first or you didnt play at all. Fined if you left your lane, Benched, sent down for purely spurious reasons or traded.

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09-30-2013, 01:32 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If you really want to cherry pick, Niedermayer had almost exactly the same PPG as Leetch and Zubov (the "offensively elite"), and only about 7 points over 82 games away from the pace of guys like Blake, Gonchar, Bourque, Ozolinsh, and Housley while under Ftorek(/Robinson), leading up to the injuries, and the Devils were still a 100 point team with a Cup to show for it in the end.
Remind me again when Nieds injury time starts in your eyes?
Ftorek/Robinson covers from 98/99 until 51 games into 01/02 so are you arguing a window of what? Is it even 2 full seasons before his Injury time starts or what?
That has to be the Window you're cherry picking because it sure as hell isn't including Leetch's 00/01 season.

I mean you attempted to dress it up real nice and make it sound better but here's the reality of those 2 seasons.
Niedermayer was 15th in raw points and 14th in PpG.

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09-30-2013, 02:19 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
The comparison of Scott's last 5 seasons with the Devil's compared to his next 5 with the Ducks shows that his ES scoring went down slightly but his PP scoring doubled.

NJ GP- 366 P-199 ES-131 (0.36) PP-65 (0.18)
AHN GP-371 P-264 ES-121 (0.33) PP-135 (0.36)
So Niedermayer's overall point totals were hurt because the Devils were an uncharacteristically bad PP team relative to where they were in the standings**? Nieds was a top 5 ES scorer in 98 and 99*, had top 5 worthy ES P/G stats the next two seasons, had another top 5 year in 2003, and led the league in ES points the year he won the Norris.

Combine that with his flashy end-to-end style, the Devils prominence, and Nieds' minute totals, and it's pretty easy to see how he was considered a "top offensive defenseman" before he started finishing higher in points.


*6-8 way tie for fourth.
**they were and they weren't, I'm fact checking as I go. Nied's production in 98 and 99 was commendable, and came on teams whose best PP forwards were Holik and Sykora. The unit then seems to flow through the A line for the next couple seasons without much change in either goals-for or efficiency before taking huge steps back in 02 and 03.

TDMM/Devils fans, are the numbers lying here? Did the structural focus of the NJD power play shift away from Niedermayer as it seems to have? Or was he always just a cog in a machine that found better players for his job?

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09-30-2013, 02:22 PM
  #175
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So Niedermayer's overall point totals were hurt because the Devils were an uncharacteristically bad PP team relative to where they were in the standings**? Nieds was a top 5 ES scorer in 98 and 99*, had top 5 worthy ES P/G stats the next two seasons, had another top 5 year in 2003, and led the league in ES points the year he won the Norris.

Combine that with his flashy end-to-end style, the Devils prominence, and Nieds' minute totals, and it's pretty easy to see how he was considered a "top offensive defenseman" before he started finishing higher in points.


*6-8 way tie for fourth.
**they were and they weren't, I'm fact checking as I go. Nied's production in 98 and 99 was commendable, and came on teams whose best PP forwards were Holik and Sykora. The unit then seems to flow through the A line for the next couple seasons without much change in either goals-for or efficiency before taking huge steps back in 02 and 03.

TDMM/Devils fans, are the numbers lying here? Did the structural focus of the NJD power play shift away from Niedermayer as it seems to have? Or was he always just a cog in a machine that found better players for his job?
Niedermayer didn't get many PP points in NJ because the PP was better off with Rafalski and a forward at the points. Once the team traded away Arnott (played the point with Rafalski in the back to back finals), then Sykora (who briefly replaced Arnott), the PP suffered whether they put Niedermayer or Langenbrunner next to Rafalski.

When the Devils PP was at its best, Nieds QBed the 2nd unit (and the 2nd unit went to **** after Mogilny left at the end of 2000-01)

Ducks fans have said he played more like a rover than a normal point man on the Anaheim PP (while Pronger basically manned the point by himself).

Edit: To add to that, Niedermayer's greatest strength has always been his skating, and skating is most important at even strength. I always found him a much better even strength defenseman than a PP or PK defenseman.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-30-2013 at 02:32 PM.
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