HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Niedermayer vs Chara

View Poll Results: Who was better?
Scott Niedermayer 59 54.63%
Zdeno Chara 46 42.59%
Even 3 2.78%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-30-2013, 02:59 PM
  #176
struckbyaparkedcar
Zemgus Da Gawd
 
struckbyaparkedcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Country: Cote DIvoire
Posts: 10,689
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Niedermayer didn't get many PP points in NJ because the PP was better off with Rafalski and a forward at the points. Once the team traded away Arnott (played the point with Rafalski in the back to back finals), then Sykora (who briefly replaced Arnott), the PP suffered whether they put Niedermayer or Langenbrunner next to Rafalski.
Interesting the team shifted towards Rafalski, considering that statistically, there wasn't much change in the Devils' PP between 98-99 and 00-01. Hyper efficient units who scored fewer PPGs than other teams because of fewer opportunities. Niedermayer also outscored Rafalski in each of his two seasons as the Devils' top power play defenseman.

Quote:
When the Devils PP was at its best, Nieds QBed the 2nd unit (and the 2nd unit went to **** after Mogilny left at the end of 2000-01)
The Devils power play was top 5 in the league in each of the three years before Niedermayer went to 6th overall in PPTOI/G. Was the 01 season that much better than what preceded it?

Quote:
Ducks fans have said he played more like a rover than a normal point man on the Anaheim PP (while Pronger basically manned the point by himself).

Edit: To add to that, Niedermayer's greatest strength has always been his skating, and skating is most important at even strength. I always found him a much better even strength defenseman than a PP or PK defenseman.
Yeah, not all that surprising. I've always thought Tyler Myers was something of a giant version of Nieds, and he has the similar phenomenon of being most valuable as an ES puckmoving type.

Also, doesn't that open up the possibility Nieds was more impactful than his point totals would show, given how thankless a job being the "breakout guy" can sometimes be?

struckbyaparkedcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 05:49 PM
  #177
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If you really want to cherry pick, Niedermayer had almost exactly the same PPG as Leetch and Zubov (the "offensively elite"), and only about 7 points over 82 games away from the pace of guys like Blake, Gonchar, Bourque, Ozolinsh, and Housley while under Ftorek(/Robinson), leading up to the injuries, and the Devils were still a 100 point team with a Cup to show for it in the end.
Alright, I'll do PPG from 1995-'00 but I'll warn you, it makes Niedermayer look worse:

Leetch - 0.79
Lidstrom - 0.78
Ozolinch - 0.76
Bourque - 0.75
MacInnis - 0.69
.........
.........
.....
........
20th Niedermayer - 0.54

I'll repeat, Niedermayer had the same PPG - a time when one has suggested he was "stepping up" - as Numminen. Nothing against Teppo, but he's never been a guy we've associated with being dangerous offensively.

An old Coffey and old Chelios an old Murphy all were noticeably higher. Blake - who still had good years outside of those ones - was clearly higher. Desjardins, a defenseman not likely to ever sniff the HHOF was noticeably better offensively at this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
interesting.
compare the numbers of niedermayer in anaheim to lidstrom in detroit during the same time period and the difference in PPG is only .1 over a large sample size of games. pretty odd that niedermayer can go toe to toe with the best dman of his generation offensively, in his mid to late 30's once he changes teams
See, that's the thing he came around and cemented a HHOF place for himself. But what the point I am trying to make is that this wasn't always the case for him. It took him a long time to do this and I'm not sure why people have forgotten that already. Very much a revisionist history here. It took him until he was 30 to be an elite defenseman, no big deal, sometimes it takes a while to put things together, but make no mistake about it, he DID take that long. While Chara didn't.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 06:05 PM
  #178
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 22,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Remind me again when Nieds injury time starts in your eyes?
As if I have to look this up so I can cut and paste it for you again (all available on TSN's player pages, for your future reference):

Knee injury January 2001.
Knee surgery February 2001.
Concussion May 2001.
Back injury October 2001.
Back injury November 2001.
Pinched neck nerve February 2002.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Ftorek/Robinson covers from 98/99 until 51 games into 01/02 so are you arguing a window of what? Is it even 2 full seasons before his Injury time starts or what?
That has to be the Window you're cherry picking because it sure as hell isn't including Leetch's 00/01 season.

I mean you attempted to dress it up real nice and make it sound better but here's the reality of those 2 seasons.
Niedermayer was 15th in raw points and 14th in PpG.
Turns out I used 3 full seasons instead of just the obvious 2 50-pointers, so not just the 2 years of Ftorek. And in over those three years, he was 8th in points. I really should have used all of the Devils' consecutive 100 point seasons if I was tying him into their success, and he was 3 points (in 1 fewer game) behind 10th place scoring Pronger over those 4 years ('96/97-'99/00). Of course I don't count '00/01, as he only had part of October plus November and December unaffected by injury. And mind you I believe I a quote I provided suggests that he was first encouraged to become more "offensively creative" around '95/96. No more than two years later, we were seeing the transformation.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 06:17 PM
  #179
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 22,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
It took him a long time to do this and I'm not sure why people have forgotten that already. Very much a revisionist history here. It took him until he was 30 to be an elite defenseman, no big deal, sometimes it takes a while to put things together, but make no mistake about it, he DID take that long. While Chara didn't.
The "revision", imo, is thinking that as early as ~1997/8 over half the teams in the league wouldn't have traded their #1 defenseman to land Scott Niedermayer if they could. Whether or not that meets your definition of "elite" seems beyond the point, given that even the least favourable statistical deconstructions still place him firmly in the top 1% of defensemen at any time, and that his reputation/skills/results combination likely put him even higher in the percentile rankings than that. He certainly got paid accordingly too, even after being beaten down by Lou.

Scott Niedermayer in '03 onward was NOT a revelation compared to the late 90s version of him. Suggesting otherwise would be the revision. The media across both countries is chock full of archived praise for him as one of the top defensemen long before that, and the results are there, too.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 06:29 PM
  #180
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,251
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
As if I have to look this up so I can cut and paste it for you again (all available on TSN's player pages, for your future reference):

Knee injury January 2001.
Knee surgery February 2001.
Concussion May 2001.
Back injury October 2001.
Back injury November 2001.
Pinched neck nerve February 2002.



Turns out I used 3 full seasons instead of just the obvious 2 50-pointers, so not just the 2 years of Ftorek. And in over those three years, he was 8th in points. I really should have used all of the Devils' consecutive 100 point seasons if I was tying him into their success, and he was 3 points (in 1 fewer game) behind 10th place scoring Pronger over those 4 years ('96/97-'99/00). Of course I don't count '00/01, as he only had part of October plus November and December unaffected by injury. And mind you I believe I a quote I provided suggests that he was first encouraged to become more "offensively creative" around '95/96. No more than two years later, we were seeing the transformation.
THAT is obviously NOT what you said or the time frame you used in the post I quoted though now was it?!

And I quote...
Quote:
If you really want to cherry pick, Niedermayer had almost exactly the same PPG as Leetch and Zubov
Quote:
while under Ftorek(/Robinson)
Since you specifically named Ftorek/Robinson and that window was only from 98/99 - 40 games into 01/02 and since you specifically mentioned that Nieds was almost the same as Leetch offensively.
THE ONLY CONCLUSION TO BE MADE IS ONLY A 2 YEAR WINDOW OF 98/99 AND 99/00 period!!!


So NOW you're saying it's 96/97-99/00...gotcha. As long as we're clear then and I can pin this down before you move the goal posts for the seventh time

From 96/97-99/00 Scott was...
11th in raw
13th in PpG.

For the record that would be 2 years of Lemaire and almost 2 years of Ftorek with Robinson finishing the final 8 games of 99/00.
Also for the record regarding your previous post, Scott was no where near Leetch and was clearly behind Zubov offensively over that stretch.
Leetch was 2nd in raw and 3rd in PpG
Zubov was 6th in both raw and PpG


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 09-30-2013 at 06:40 PM.
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 07:29 PM
  #181
KEEROLE Vatanen
Failures Of Fenwick
 
KEEROLE Vatanen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 18,802
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
The difference between 0.71 and 0.81 doesn't seem like much but it is. It's pretty much the separation of a Tier.
The difference is 1 point every 10 games, plus niedermayer when he came to anaheim did not exactly have a great team his first year, nor in his last year.

Quote:
And one also has to remember that while Lidstrom may be one of the top scoring D-men his generation, he was not what you would call an offensive D-man nor did he set the bar as high as previous generations or even as high as we are seeing today.
No but i was comparing niedermayer directly to the best player at his position and the difference in offense once he changed teams shows that offensively the gap between them was relatively small.

Quote:
You are right though, switching teams definitely helped Scott's offense but there's actually a simple reason for that...The Ducks PP was much better than the Devil's.
well his first year in 05/06 the team was 15th in the league in PP%, 06-07 the team had a much better supporting cast but still he was top 8 both seasons, in 06/07 he led the entire league in D scoring. So how does a guy go from a solid offensive dman(scoring wise) to leading the entire league in his 30's on another team? and his first 3 full seasons in Anaheim(not including his partial retirement season) he was neck and neck with lidstrom those 3 years for scoring in the entire league for D(05/06, 06/07, 08/09) doing so as he aged into his mid to late 30s

Quote:
The comparison of Scott's last 5 seasons with the Devil's compared to his next 5 with the Ducks shows that his ES scoring went down slightly but his PP scoring doubled.

NJ GP- 366 P-199 ES-131 (0.36) PP-65 (0.18)
AHN GP-371 P-264 ES-121 (0.33) PP-135 (0.36)
to me this indicates the way he was used in Anaheim had a significant impact as a PP player(used as a rover, who played instinctually) and strangely enough the new rules didn't seem to benefit him as much as one may have thought at ES

KEEROLE Vatanen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 07:58 PM
  #182
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,251
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KEEROLE Vatanen View Post
The difference is 1 point every 10 games
Yes but it's also a 17% increase from 0.6 to 0.7 and we're not talking about a 10 game stretch here, it's 200 games, 300 games and much more.
The difference between a .300 hitter and a .250 hitter in baseball is only 1 more hit every 20 at bats.

It matters and it matter a lot.


Quote:
No but i was comparing niedermayer directly to the best player at his position and the difference in offense once he changed teams shows that offensively the gap between them was relatively small.
I fully understand that but if you then attempt to use that comparison to say that Niedermayer should be considered an Elite offensive player from it when Lidstrom didn't set the bar very high for it, then it's a flawed conclusion without context.

Quote:
well his first year in 05/06 the team was 15th in the league in PP%, 06-07 the team had a much better supporting cast but still he was top 8 both seasons, in 06/07 he led the entire league in D scoring. So how does a guy go from a solid offensive dman(scoring wise) to leading the entire league in his 30's on another team? and his first 3 full seasons in Anaheim(not including his partial retirement season) he was neck and neck with lidstrom those 3 years for scoring in the entire league for D(05/06, 06/07, 08/09) doing so as he aged into his mid to late 30s
Where they placed in PP% is almost irrelevant. It was right after the LO and PP opportunities were up League wide on a massive scale.
03/04 NJ 15th PPG-51 PP%-16.35%
05/06 Ahn 15th PPG-87 PP%-18.13%

Quote:
to me this indicates the way he was used in Anaheim had a significant impact as a PP player(used as a rover, who played instinctually) and strangely enough the new rules didn't seem to benefit him as much as one may have thought at ES
See above, more opportunities = more PP points. This benefited Niedermayer immensely as it did other D-men as well. Lidstrom for example also benefited greatly from the increase in opportunities, even more so than Niedermayer did.

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 08:19 PM
  #183
struckbyaparkedcar
Zemgus Da Gawd
 
struckbyaparkedcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Country: Cote DIvoire
Posts: 10,689
vCash: 500
But Nieds didn't have a ton of PP production between 99 and 04, so his success given more power plays is kind of surprising. Fewer opportunities probably also explains the drop in ES scoring, as well as a checking line that did not score 5v5 the way the Devils' did.

Another point favoring the "Nieds probably had offensive potential beyond his point totals" tip is that the guy was top 5 in either ESP/G or raw ES points among defenseman in five of the six seasons before his Norris.

struckbyaparkedcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 09:32 PM
  #184
mrhockey193195
Registered User
 
mrhockey193195's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
my memory is desjardins was considered the fourth best guy of that generation in the late 90s/early 2000s. it was the group of pronger, lidstrom, and blake, then desjardins, then the pack.
Not sure if there was much of a differentiation between guys like Desjardins, Hatcher, Foote, maybe a couple more. I think Niedermayer at that stage of his career was right under that group.

mrhockey193195 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-30-2013, 11:40 PM
  #185
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,662
vCash: 500
Even strength offense was the weakest part of Lidstrom's overall game, so what does it really say that pre-prime Niedermayer was his equal at that, while not even coming close to holding his jock at anything else?

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 06:22 PM
  #186
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Not sure if there was much of a differentiation between guys like Desjardins, Hatcher, Foote, maybe a couple more. I think Niedermayer at that stage of his career was right under that group.
Sort of what I've been thinking too. Not that there is anything wrong with that group, but for whatever reasons a few people either don't want to or just weren't around when Niedermayer was easily in that group and no better. Foote and Desjardins made Olympic teams too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The "revision", imo, is thinking that as early as ~1997/8 over half the teams in the league wouldn't have traded their #1 defenseman to land Scott Niedermayer if they could. Whether or not that meets your definition of "elite" seems beyond the point, given that even the least favourable statistical deconstructions still place him firmly in the top 1% of defensemen at any time, and that his reputation/skills/results combination likely put him even higher in the percentile rankings than that. He certainly got paid accordingly too, even after being beaten down by Lou.

Scott Niedermayer in '03 onward was NOT a revelation compared to the late 90s version of him. Suggesting otherwise would be the revision. The media across both countries is chock full of archived praise for him as one of the top defensemen long before that, and the results are there, too.
I would say "elite" is no worse than a top 10 defenseman in the NHL and that's being rather generous and I'd prefer to see it as less. Now, in 2002 I ran a list that showed Niedermayer wasn't a top 10 defenseman even at that time. Maybe in the #12 range. Not bad, but not the cream of the crop either.

So if you want, we can do 1998 as well. It isn't going to come out in Niedermayer's favour, but these are the defensemen that would have been thought to be better than Niedermayer in 1998 (even a year he was a surprise 2nd team all-star).

Leetch, Bourque, Lidstrom, Blake, MacInnis, Zubov, Chelios, Murphy, Ozolinch, Desjardins, Stevens........at the very least.

That's 11 right there without breaking a sweat. I can't imagine people thinking he was better than Pronger at this time either. Throw in other names that he's very close to (either of the Hatchers), Sydor, Foote, maybe even Duchesne and Svehla?

In 1998 he's flirting as a top 15 defenseman at best here. I don't think I'd have passed up on Pronger or Derian Hatcher so at the very least he's #14 at this time.

Now that is a huge change from his Norris year in 2004 and the following couple of years where he was THE cream of the crop in the NHL (Lidstrom, Pronger, Niedermayer and Chara). How do you not see this difference?

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2013, 10:15 PM
  #187
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 36,590
vCash: 500
Does anyone have access to any of the old positional lists that THN used to publish? I can't remember if they were in the yearbook or one of the newspaper issues, but I'd be curious to know how Niedermayer placed on those in the mid 90s-early 00s time period.

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2013, 02:54 AM
  #188
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,730
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Does anyone have access to any of the old positional lists that THN used to publish? I can't remember if they were in the yearbook or one of the newspaper issues, but I'd be curious to know how Niedermayer placed on those in the mid 90s-early 00s time period.
starting in the october 1996 season preview:

13th
15th
6th
9th
5th
8th
6th
4th
2nd
2nd
(not ranked in 2007)

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-03-2013, 12:22 AM
  #189
mrhockey193195
Registered User
 
mrhockey193195's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
starting in the october 1996 season preview:

13th
15th
6th
9th
5th
8th
6th
4th
2nd
2nd
(not ranked in 2007)
Hm, that definitely gives more ammo for the pro-Niedermayer posters. Not sure how much weight I would put on those rankings, but it's definitely an eye-opener for me...did not expect Niedermayer to be top 10 that many times before 2003 (1998 was the only year where I expected to see him in the top ten).

I also have a VERY tough time believing that people thought he was the fifth best defenseman in the league in 2000 (going into the 00-01 season). Who was ranked above him on the list? Pronger just came off his Norris/Hart season, Lidstrom was starting to get recognized as one of the NHL's elite, and most of the veterans from the 90s were still around and relevant: Stevens coming off one of the most dominant postseasons ever by a defensive defenseman, Bourque, Chelios, Hatcher, Desjardins, Blake, etc. I guess Leetch and MacInnis had off years in 99-00, but even then there is no way Niedermayer was 5th best. That ranking is the toughest to be on board with.

mrhockey193195 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-03-2013, 12:26 AM
  #190
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,662
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Hm, that definitely gives more ammo for the pro-Niedermayer posters. Not sure how much weight I would put on those rankings, but it's definitely an eye-opener for me...did not expect Niedermayer to be top 10 that many times before 2003 (1998 was the only year where I expected to see him in the top ten).

I also have a VERY tough time believing that people thought he was the fifth best defenseman in the league in 2000 (going into the 00-01 season). Who was ranked above him on the list? Pronger just came off his Norris/Hart season, Lidstrom was starting to get recognized as one of the NHL's elite, and most of the veterans from the 90s were still around and relevant: Stevens coming off one of the most dominant postseasons ever by a defensive defenseman, Bourque, Chelios, Hatcher, Desjardins, Blake, etc. I guess Leetch and MacInnis had off years in 99-00, but even then there is no way Niedermayer was 5th best. That ranking is the toughest to be on board with.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the THN lists tend to be projections for how good they think the player will be THE FOLLOWING YEAR, right? So they always uprate guys with potential they think are on the verge of breaking through... which pretty much describes Niedermayer from 1994-2001... I would imagine Ed Jovanovski would have been very highly rated, as well.

They similarly rated Rick Nash very high in recent years.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-03-2013, 12:53 AM
  #191
mrhockey193195
Registered User
 
mrhockey193195's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the THN lists tend to be projections for how good they think the player will be THE FOLLOWING YEAR, right? So they always uprate guys with potential they think are on the verge of breaking through... which pretty much describes Niedermayer from 1994-2001... I would imagine Ed Jovanovski would have been very highly rated, as well.

They similarly rated Rick Nash very high in recent years.
Ahh, that would make a lot more sense.

mrhockey193195 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-03-2013, 05:17 PM
  #192
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Hm, that definitely gives more ammo for the pro-Niedermayer posters. Not sure how much weight I would put on those rankings, but it's definitely an eye-opener for me...did not expect Niedermayer to be top 10 that many times before 2003 (1998 was the only year where I expected to see him in the top ten).

I also have a VERY tough time believing that people thought he was the fifth best defenseman in the league in 2000 (going into the 00-01 season). Who was ranked above him on the list? Pronger just came off his Norris/Hart season, Lidstrom was starting to get recognized as one of the NHL's elite, and most of the veterans from the 90s were still around and relevant: Stevens coming off one of the most dominant postseasons ever by a defensive defenseman, Bourque, Chelios, Hatcher, Desjardins, Blake, etc. I guess Leetch and MacInnis had off years in 99-00, but even then there is no way Niedermayer was 5th best. That ranking is the toughest to be on board with.
Yeah that's usually how the Hockey News did it. Brian Boucher after the 2000 season was ranked higher than Patrick Roy (who by his standards I guess had an off year and then didn't win the Cup). This was the year Boucher took the Flyers to within a game of the final. Strange list.

But even despite the weird selections the Hockey News made, you can clearly see that even their had him rated a lot lower than he was in the Norris and post Norris years. Not sure I could find room for him in the top 10 before 2003, but the times he was 8th or 9th on those lists at least explain that he wasn't the cream of the crop at the time.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-03-2013, 05:44 PM
  #193
mrhockey193195
Registered User
 
mrhockey193195's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah that's usually how the Hockey News did it. Brian Boucher after the 2000 season was ranked higher than Patrick Roy (who by his standards I guess had an off year and then didn't win the Cup). This was the year Boucher took the Flyers to within a game of the final. Strange list.

But even despite the weird selections the Hockey News made, you can clearly see that even their had him rated a lot lower than he was in the Norris and post Norris years. Not sure I could find room for him in the top 10 before 2003, but the times he was 8th or 9th on those lists at least explain that he wasn't the cream of the crop at the time.
Yup, the "future projections" notion of those rankings makes a lot more sense.

On an unrelated note, of all the metrics used to determine a player's standing in the eyes of fans and the hockey community at a given point in time, one that definitely is not gospel and should be taken with several LARGE grains of salt, but one that I find interesting and fun nonetheless, is how players are rated in video games. Flawed, of course, so I'm not putting a lot of weight on it, but interesting at the very least.

EA Sports NHL 2001:
Rob Blake (93), Desjardins (91), Lidstrom (94), Kenny Jonsson (87), Hamrlik (87), Scott Stevens (93), Bourque (93), Hatcher (90), MacInnis (88), Pronger (97), Chelios (90), Leetch (86), and potentially a couple that I'm missing who were rated very highly.

Niedermayer was an 85...comparables were Numminen (85), Foote (84), Ohlund (85), Zubov (85), Redden (85), Jay McKee (84).

Again...and I reiterate, because I know people are going to jump down my throat for posting thing...I'm NOT using this as a strong component of my argument that Niedermayer was not in the upper-echelon of defenseman during that time period. We all know how ridiculously flawed and subjective video game ratings can be. I'm just posting it because I find it interesting, though I think it still has a smidgen of credence and maybe sheds a little bit of light on the discussion.

And just for fun...after his 30ish regular season games (sub 2.00 GAA if I remember correctly), and his great postseason in 2000, Boucher was rated a 90 in that game. Mike Richter, as a comparable US goalie, was an 81.

mrhockey193195 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-03-2013, 05:58 PM
  #194
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Yup, the "future projections" notion of those rankings makes a lot more sense.

On an unrelated note, of all the metrics used to determine a player's standing in the eyes of fans and the hockey community at a given point in time, one that definitely is not gospel and should be taken with several LARGE grains of salt, but one that I find interesting and fun nonetheless, is how players are rated in video games. Flawed, of course, so I'm not putting a lot of weight on it, but interesting at the very least.

EA Sports NHL 2001:
Rob Blake (93), Desjardins (91), Lidstrom (94), Kenny Jonsson (87), Hamrlik (87), Scott Stevens (93), Bourque (93), Hatcher (90), MacInnis (88), Pronger (97), Chelios (90), Leetch (86), and potentially a couple that I'm missing who were rated very highly.

Niedermayer was an 85...comparables were Numminen (85), Foote (84), Ohlund (85), Zubov (85), Redden (85), Jay McKee (84).

Again...and I reiterate, because I know people are going to jump down my throat for posting thing...I'm NOT using this as a strong component of my argument that Niedermayer was not in the upper-echelon of defenseman during that time period. We all know how ridiculously flawed and subjective video game ratings can be. I'm just posting it because I find it interesting, though I think it still has a smidgen of credence and maybe sheds a little bit of light on the discussion.

And just for fun...after his 30ish regular season games (sub 2.00 GAA if I remember correctly), and his great postseason in 2000, Boucher was rated a 90 in that game. Mike Richter, as a comparable US goalie, was an 81.
Ah well, its fun to post them anyway. And yeah video games are flawed, but for some of the defensemen there they aren't that far off. Perhaps a little high for Jonsson, but in 2001 Foote, Redden, Zubov and Ohlund would have been very close in terms of how good they were in comparison to Niedermayer.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-04-2013, 11:14 PM
  #195
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,730
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the THN lists tend to be projections for how good they think the player will be THE FOLLOWING YEAR, right? So they always uprate guys with potential they think are on the verge of breaking through... which pretty much describes Niedermayer from 1994-2001... I would imagine Ed Jovanovski would have been very highly rated, as well.

They similarly rated Rick Nash very high in recent years.
you're right, there definitely is an element of that.

I've also found that they are so fast to rate a player way too high (over more proven players) based on one good season. Then the next season that player is nowhere to be found on their lists and the proven guy is back.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-05-2013, 12:29 AM
  #196
Ed Wood
Registered User
 
Ed Wood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,004
vCash: 500
I picked Niedermayer largely because of my vivid recollections of some brutal playoff performances by Chara while he was still in Ottawa. I don't believe Niedermayer was ever that inept.

Ed Wood is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:56 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.