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Let's talk about movies (and TV shows)... The Sequel!!

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09-30-2013, 06:21 PM
  #476
WhiskeySeven
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
killed personally. my memory is shady but he's killed guys from fumes, bombs, ran over some dude, told people to kill other guys for him - but him, face-to-face, with a gun? don't remember any...

i thought that was a huge part of the scene to be honest...
The significance of Uncle Jack's death was that the director chose to show it in full - as opposed to cutting away "respectfully" during Hank's killing.

Walt's killed that guy in his basement, for one. The two hitmen going after Jesse as well.

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09-30-2013, 06:24 PM
  #477
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I was set to watch WWZ until I read the viewer reviews. It totally scared me off.
my review : dont spend a dime on it, you won't have the feeling of being ripped off.

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09-30-2013, 06:57 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
killed personally. my memory is shady but he's killed guys from fumes, bombs, ran over some dude, told people to kill other guys for him - but him, face-to-face, with a gun? don't remember any...

i thought that was a huge part of the scene to be honest...
lol hes killed like 3-4 people himself/directly the cause

theres a glaring one in season 1

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09-30-2013, 07:01 PM
  #479
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I was set to watch WWZ until I read the viewer reviews. It totally scared me off.
It was terrible imo.

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09-30-2013, 07:42 PM
  #480
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It was terrible imo.
I agree. WWZ was my least favorite film I've seen all year.

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09-30-2013, 07:43 PM
  #481
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I'm amazed Vince Gilligan was able to pull off that Schwartz trick, given that fans have been speculating on every conceivable story possibility for weeks. Nobody saw that coming! To me, that was the show's last great Heisenberg moment.

Overall I think they decided to give the audience a satisfying last meal rather than serve some weird nouvelle cuisine. Yes, as you said, it wasn't a major shocker, but I think the show digests better this way, making the end more emotionally filling and less speculative. Loose ends were tied up, characters met their just fates and Walt leaves with a degree of redemption (the degree depends on the yardstick we measure him by, naturally). There's less ambiguity about motives than there was even 24 hours ago, because the entire arc of Walter White was as clearly mapped-out as it ever could be.

On the subject of our big "Is Walt Evil?" debate, I find it interesting that, on the one hand, Vince Gilligan (I can't simply call him 'Gilligan' without smirking) made it clear he DID consider Walt evil (contrary to what I had guessed), but wrote a story that leaned heavily towards redemption. Again, it's redemption with five seasons of strings attached, but it shows that even the writer doesn't have absolute control over the characters they create. The character of Walter White transcended the page when it took human form and evolved over time, just like a child transcends its parents when it grows up.

But that's a whole other debate...
Personally I thought he was going to kill them, but what he did was even worse imo. It shows just how evil he actually is.
I disagree about redemption. At the end of it all, he ends up losing and hurting a lot of people, but I truly believe that if he had to do it all over again, WW would do the exact same thing with the exception of leaving that book in his bathroom.

I think V.G brilliantly mislead the viewers to believe that Walt was actually a stand up guy. Maybe it was subconsciously. Throughout the whole show, WW repeats and repeats how much he loves his family, how he's doing it all for them, so maybe viewers bought into it. I think that's why he comes clean in the last show and pretty much says it was BS.

I don't think there's any question that he loves his family. But actions speak louder than words. If he really loved his family, then he wouldn't risk losing them over drugs, and he would have went to the Schwarts for cash.
As he said, he did it for himself. He needed this, it made him feel alive, awake.


I think people like WW because audiences generally like empowered characters that are not completely psychotic. But hey, sometimes they even like the crazy ones, like Dexter.
So I think it's just a habit of simply connecting to the main character. It's who you follow.

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09-30-2013, 08:56 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Personally I thought he was going to kill them, but what he did was even worse imo. It shows just how evil he actually is.
I disagree about redemption. At the end of it all, he ends up losing and hurting a lot of people, but I truly believe that if he had to do it all over again, WW would do the exact same thing with the exception of leaving that book in his bathroom.

I think V.G brilliantly mislead the viewers to believe that Walt was actually a stand up guy. Maybe it was subconsciously. Throughout the whole show, WW repeats and repeats how much he loves his family, how he's doing it all for them, so maybe viewers bought into it. I think that's why he comes clean in the last show and pretty much says it was BS.

I don't think there's any question that he loves his family. But actions speak louder than words. If he really loved his family, then he wouldn't risk losing them over drugs, and he would have went to the Schwarts for cash.
As he said, he did it for himself. He needed this, it made him feel alive, awake.


I think people like WW because audiences generally like empowered characters that are not completely psychotic. But hey, sometimes they even like the crazy ones, like Dexter.
So I think it's just a habit of simply connecting to the main character. It's who you follow.
While i like your insight and input , but ill have to disagree that what he said in the finale means everything else was BS, watch 737 again(season 2 episode 1 i believe), and when they're in the car after the tuco deal and he starts calculating EXACTLY how much money he would need for his family to be financially secure after he's gone (he is still dying of cancer at this moment), and the only way to ACHIEVE that number would be to cook some meth and make some more quick cash , all this was not "BS" "i love to do this", he was 100% geniunely cooking merely as a way to provide money for the family , and then tuco kills his "friend" and all of a sudden they fear for their lives that tuco will kill them and so they hatch the plan that they do that leads to ALL kinds of significant plot points thrughout the show

when he has finally beaten cancer, THATS when any other reason to continue cooking meth, THAT was no longer for the family, that was when he truly did it because he knew he was the BEST and then started his empire path to be number 1

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09-30-2013, 09:06 PM
  #483
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My least favorite movie this year is Star Trek into Darkness. The plot was nonsensical, and in fact a mediocre, unapologetic pastiche of some superior works, like Wrath of Khan and Babylon 5. The movie's third act was a dull and loud neverending action sequence. It's particularly disappointing as the previous Star Trek movie was so much better.

My favorite movie of 2013 that I saw might be Oblivion, it had an actual plot, an actual message, great cinematography and characters that fit the movie. In the second tier, I'd put Elysium, Pacific Rim, Man of Steel, and Riddick as comparable. Riddick is quite dumb, but my expectations were low so it worked ... I really liked the scene with the glass box, and everything with the dog. Man of Steel might be the most disappointing, as I love the characters (both Lois and Clark), and the previews implied it would be amazing.

I did not see World War Z or Iron Man 3, I hear those are quite bad. I can't stomach another IM movie as IM2 was such a terrible POS.

Overall, 2013 is thus far disappointing for blockbusters.


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09-30-2013, 09:34 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
The significance of Uncle Jack's death was that the director chose to show it in full - as opposed to cutting away "respectfully" during Hank's killing.

Walt's killed that guy in his basement, for one. The two hitmen going after Jesse as well.
Anyone else notice that he did to Jack exactly what Jack did to Hank? Didn't give the guy a chance to finish his sentence.

I also thought that it was a nice touch having El Paso in the beginning. Great song. All about a cowboy who meets his end chasing after his love. Turns out, her name is Felina. Same name as the episode.

As some writers showed though... Felina is an anagram for Finale and FE LI and NA are the chemical symbols for (Blood, Meth and Tears.) Amazing how they tied that all together. Very smart.

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09-30-2013, 09:43 PM
  #485
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Personally I thought he was going to kill them, but what he did was even worse imo. It shows just how evil he actually is.
I disagree about redemption. At the end of it all, he ends up losing and hurting a lot of people, but I truly believe that if he had to do it all over again, WW would do the exact same thing with the exception of leaving that book in his bathroom.

I think V.G brilliantly mislead the viewers to believe that Walt was actually a stand up guy. Maybe it was subconsciously. Throughout the whole show, WW repeats and repeats how much he loves his family, how he's doing it all for them, so maybe viewers bought into it. I think that's why he comes clean in the last show and pretty much says it was BS.

I don't think there's any question that he loves his family. But actions speak louder than words. If he really loved his family, then he wouldn't risk losing them over drugs, and he would have went to the Schwarts for cash.
As he said, he did it for himself. He needed this, it made him feel alive, awake.


I think people like WW because audiences generally like empowered characters that are not completely psychotic. But hey, sometimes they even like the crazy ones, like Dexter.
So I think it's just a habit of simply connecting to the main character. It's who you follow.
What makes Walt sympathetic is his circumstance. In the first episode he's laughed at by his students, has a second job at the carwash (where he's laughed at again) his idiot brother in law laughs at him... and all the while he knows that he could've been a bigshot but had his ideas stolen from him. Then he gets cancer and it helpless to do anything about it...

People can identify with this. You want to root for a guy like this because we all want to believe that we can rise up and make our lives better and (even better) take revenge on those who've belittled us. It struck a chord with a lot of people and I think that's part of what is at the heart of us sympathizing with him.

I'm just glad the guy at least tried to redeem himself at the end and was finally honest about things. Unlike the Shakespearian characters I mentioned earlier... Walt finally recognizes and admits his fatal flaw. I didn't think this would happen. I just figured he'd deny everything to the end but (like all characters in this show) he evolves. To me, that's the key to redemption. If you can't acknowledge anything's wrong with yourself then how can you be redeemed? So Walt pays the price (deservedly so) but at least he finds redemption in the end.


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09-30-2013, 09:49 PM
  #486
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While i like your insight and input , but ill have to disagree that what he said in the finale means everything else was BS, watch 737 again(season 2 episode 1 i believe), and when they're in the car after the tuco deal and he starts calculating EXACTLY how much money he would need for his family to be financially secure after he's gone (he is still dying of cancer at this moment), and the only way to ACHIEVE that number would be to cook some meth and make some more quick cash , all this was not "BS" "i love to do this", he was 100% geniunely cooking merely as a way to provide money for the family , and then tuco kills his "friend" and all of a sudden they fear for their lives that tuco will kill them and so they hatch the plan that they do that leads to ALL kinds of significant plot points thrughout the show

when he has finally beaten cancer, THATS when any other reason to continue cooking meth, THAT was no longer for the family, that was when he truly did it because he knew he was the BEST and then started his empire path to be number 1
I'm gonna have to disagree. He doesn't start off completely lost. That's what is so great about this show, the downward fall of Walt and how he progressively becomes worse and worse.
Counting how much he needs to make to secure his family's future is just a reason that he creates to justify increasing production/tapping out new markets/making more cash. We're also never told exactly how much he needs to make, all we know is that whatever he's currently making, it's not enough.

Walt quickly gets into this feeling of empowerment. He loves every bit of it. That's why he always wants more.

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09-30-2013, 10:23 PM
  #487
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I'm gonna have to disagree. He doesn't start off completely lost. That's what is so great about this show, the downward fall of Walt and how he progressively becomes worse and worse.
Counting how much he needs to make to secure his family's future is just a reason that he creates to justify increasing production/tapping out new markets/making more cash. We're also never told exactly how much he needs to make, all we know is that whatever he's currently making, it's not enough.
Walt quickly gets into this feeling of empowerment. He loves every bit of it. That's why he always wants more.
The first episode of season 2 is titled "Seven Thirty Seven" , because in it Walt calculates what he needs to make to clear his mortgage and LOC, put 2 children through state college, and give a reasonable amount to his family to live. He then calculates he needs 10 or 11 more cooks to make $737K.

In the episode where he has the CT scan, he sees the results and interprets them as bad, his immediate reaction is to fake a trip to his mothers and do another cook because he's short on time.

There is overwhelming evidence that Walt set out on his path to financially secure his family's future, and this is what drove him initially.

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09-30-2013, 10:45 PM
  #488
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I'm gonna have to disagree. He doesn't start off completely lost. That's what is so great about this show, the downward fall of Walt and how he progressively becomes worse and worse.
Counting how much he needs to make to secure his family's future is just a reason that he creates to justify increasing production/tapping out new markets/making more cash. We're also never told exactly how much he needs to make, all we know is that whatever he's currently making, it's not enough.

Walt quickly gets into this feeling of empowerment. He loves every bit of it. That's why he always wants more.
While everyone is entitled to his opinion, I think you're trying too hard on this one...

There's no doubt in my mind that Walt's first motive was his family. He then got caught up in a downward spiral the moment Skylar discovered what was happening and turned on him. I don't recall the exact season/episode, but I remember Walt saying at that point (paraphrasing) "Cooking meth is all I've got".

He wanted to provide for his family, the one and only thing he cared for... But once his family turned on him, he had nothing left outside of his drug empire. And so he just kept on keeping on.

At least that's how I see it.

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09-30-2013, 10:52 PM
  #489
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The first episode of season 2 is titled "Seven Thirty Seven" , because in it Walt calculates what he needs to make to clear his mortgage and LOC, put 2 children through state college, and give a reasonable amount to his family to live. He then calculates he needs 10 or 11 more cooks to make $737K.

In the episode where he has the CT scan, he sees the results and interprets them as bad, his immediate reaction is to fake a trip to his mothers and do another cook because he's short on time.

There is overwhelming evidence that Walt set out on his path to financially secure his family's future, and this is what drove him initially.
I think that's BS. Initially, he doesn't even want to do his treatment. He wants to live for as long as the cancer will permit him to do so. As we know, he's a very sad, disappointed and somewhat depressed middle aged man. I think he views this as an opportunity to finally get some excitement in his life before calling it quits. As a reason, he focuses on his family and makes himself believe he's doing it for them.
But as he says himself, he did it all for him. It made him feel alive.

He did such a good job convincing people he was doing this for his family that even after he says that he didn't, some still believe he did.

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09-30-2013, 10:57 PM
  #490
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While everyone is entitled to his opinion, I think you're trying too hard on this one...

There's no doubt in my mind that Walt's first motive was his family. He then got caught up in a downward spiral the moment Skylar discovered what was happening and turned on him. I don't recall the exact season/episode, but I remember Walt saying at that point (paraphrasing) "Cooking meth is all I've got".

He wanted to provide for his family, the one and only thing he cared for... But once his family turned on him, he had nothing left outside of his drug empire. And so he just kept on keeping on.

At least that's how I see it.
That's what I always felt. I never believed he was doing it for his family. It seems like a rather odd thing to do.
How does a man so in love with his family decides to go into the meth business? How does that man not go through the safer route of simply asking his billionaire friends that are more than happy to help instead?? After all, Elliott doesn't just offer to pay for treatments, he offers Walt a job with plenty of benefits and security.

But I also just mentioned in the previous post. Walter admits to Skylar that he never did it for them, that he did for himself. That it made him feel alive.

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09-30-2013, 10:58 PM
  #491
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What makes Walt sympathetic is his circumstance. In the first episode he's laughed at by his students, has a second job at the carwash (where he's laughed at again) his idiot brother in law laughs at him... and all the while he knows that he could've been a bigshot but had his ideas stolen from him. Then he gets cancer and it helpless to do anything about it...

People can identify with this. You want to root for a guy like this because we all want to believe that we can rise up and make our lives better and (even better) take revenge on those who've belittled us. It struck a chord with a lot of people and I think that's part of what is at the heart of us sympathizing with him.

I'm just glad the guy at least tried to redeem himself at the end and was finally honest about things. Unlike the Shakespearian characters I mentioned earlier... Walt finally recognizes and admits his fatal flaw. I didn't think this would happen. I just figured he'd deny everything to the end but (like all characters in this show) he evolves. To me, that's the key to redemption. If you can't acknowledge anything's wrong with yourself then how can you be redeemed? So Walt pays the price (deservedly so) but at least he finds redemption in the end.
Redemption in the last show, I can agree with that.

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09-30-2013, 11:25 PM
  #492
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That's what I always felt. I never believed he was doing it for his family. It seems like a rather odd thing to do.
How does a man so in love with his family decides to go into the meth business? How does that man not go through the safer route of simply asking his billionaire friends that are more than happy to help instead?? After all, Elliott doesn't just offer to pay for treatments, he offers Walt a job with plenty of benefits and security.

But I also just mentioned in the previous post. Walter admits to Skylar that he never did it for them, that he did for himself. That it made him feel alive.
I'm not defending the path he chose. Not accepting the money from his billionaire "friends" was nothing more than his ego and his pride getting the best of him. He probably also felt cheated by them due to how successful they became based on his contribution that went for the most part unnoticed.

I just don't think it HAS to be a black or white thing. He said throughout the whole show he did it for his family, but I think most people were aware there was some sort of breaking point that changed his mentality from providing for his family to living his actual life through Heisenberg. Walter saying in the show's finale that he did it for himself is, in my opinion, a sort of way to apologize for what he ended up doing to his family, basically ruining Skyler, Jr., Marie, his newborn baby and even Jesse's life. Like it's been said, he was looking for redemption and to die in peace, and to do that and tried to take away all of the blame with him (not that it should have been shared with anyone else to begin with, but him getting into the meth business in the first place to provide for his family sort of indicates that he did it because of them.

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09-30-2013, 11:51 PM
  #493
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I think that's BS. Initially, he doesn't even want to do his treatment. He wants to live for as long as the cancer will permit him to do so. As we know, he's a very sad, disappointed and somewhat depressed middle aged man. I think he views this as an opportunity to finally get some excitement in his life before calling it quits. As a reason, he focuses on his family and makes himself believe he's doing it for them.
But as he says himself, he did it all for him. It made him feel alive.

He did such a good job convincing people he was doing this for his family that even after he says that he didn't, some still believe he did.
Again, love your input, but you need to stop making it sound like what your saying is "concrete" and that youve figured it all out ,

I dont deny he is what you say and what he believes later on about cooking, but its really quite possible he wasnt BSing about making that 737k JUST for the family, go back and watch the scene and really WATCH it, he's in way over his head, at this point he's not thinking about loving cooking meth and wanting to be the number 1 dealer, its genuine , he's ONLY thinking about the family at this moment, there is nothing else, he believes he is going to die and that he wants to leave something meaningful behind,
He's not thinking about owning the meth game when he's so positive he's going to die, ..you dont do the things he did for "more power" just because he's about to die soon, he's about to die soon so time is running OUT on being able to make all this money for his family before he dies...its simple really...

after he beats cancer, he's beaten it, and now becomes greedy and then starts sliding down the aweful path, as you and others say "he isnt "turning" evil, he was always evil and disguising himself as a good man" , thats always gonna be up for debate, and could be true, but you cant convince me he was "evil" in that 737 moment, he's just a scared dying man who has found a way to make alot of money fast, for his family.

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10-01-2013, 06:45 AM
  #494
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I'm not defending the path he chose. Not accepting the money from his billionaire "friends" was nothing more than his ego and his pride getting the best of him. He probably also felt cheated by them due to how successful they became based on his contribution that went for the most part unnoticed.

I just don't think it HAS to be a black or white thing. He said throughout the whole show he did it for his family, but I think most people were aware there was some sort of breaking point that changed his mentality from providing for his family to living his actual life through Heisenberg. Walter saying in the show's finale that he did it for himself is, in my opinion, a sort of way to apologize for what he ended up doing to his family, basically ruining Skyler, Jr., Marie, his newborn baby and even Jesse's life. Like it's been said, he was looking for redemption and to die in peace, and to do that and tried to take away all of the blame with him (not that it should have been shared with anyone else to begin with, but him getting into the meth business in the first place to provide for his family sort of indicates that he did it because of them.
Well that's just it, I believe the breaking points happen in Episode one, when he goes from sad, bored, depressed, underachieving high school chemical teacher, to a Meth cook that develops the purest form of it on the market and also happens to have killed two guys (at least he believes it). You know, you're no longer normal after this happens.
You can say that his family was his priority motive, but I simply disagree.
I can't think of anybody that have their family in mind who would end up doing something completely out of character, hook up with a dealer, cook meth, start selling, and kill people. I think there are ulterior motives that are driving him and that's why no matter how many times he says that he'll quit, he gets back into it.

I always felt that him saying he's doing this for his family is just a reason he convinces himself of for the simple reason of not feeling guilty about what he's done/doing.

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10-01-2013, 07:04 AM
  #495
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Again, love your input, but you need to stop making it sound like what your saying is "concrete" and that youve figured it all out ,

I dont deny he is what you say and what he believes later on about cooking, but its really quite possible he wasnt BSing about making that 737k JUST for the family, go back and watch the scene and really WATCH it, he's in way over his head, at this point he's not thinking about loving cooking meth and wanting to be the number 1 dealer, its genuine , he's ONLY thinking about the family at this moment, there is nothing else, he believes he is going to die and that he wants to leave something meaningful behind,
He's not thinking about owning the meth game when he's so positive he's going to die, ..you dont do the things he did for "more power" just because he's about to die soon, he's about to die soon so time is running OUT on being able to make all this money for his family before he dies...its simple really...

after he beats cancer, he's beaten it, and now becomes greedy and then starts sliding down the aweful path, as you and others say "he isnt "turning" evil, he was always evil and disguising himself as a good man" , thats always gonna be up for debate, and could be true, but you cant convince me he was "evil" in that 737 moment, he's just a scared dying man who has found a way to make alot of money fast, for his family.
Well, I do think I've figured Walt out! But that's just my opinion
That's what's cool about analyzing a story and its characters, there isn't just one good opinion.

I don't think he starts cooking meth thinking ''I'm gonna build a drug empire''. He clearly doesn't know what he's getting into.
He makes himself believe it's for his family, but nothing he does is actually good for his family. A criminal can repeat he's not a criminal about a million times, it doesn't make it true.
Walt can keep putting up this facade about doing it for his family, it doesn't make it real. He can count exactly just how many dimes he needs to secure his family, it doesn't mean it's the main reason why he's doing this.
WW to me is like Gale Boetticher. Matter of fact, I think WW is GB without the family. I think he would have still cooked Meth if he was a single man.

WW has an ego way too big and is too brilliant to complacently remain a sad, underachieved and laughed at man. The cancer pushed him over the edge, that's what sets everything in motion. Right from the beginning of the show, he doesn't just think about his family, he analyzes his life and the decisions he's made.
Clearly unsatisfied, he's missing an opportunity. So when he goes on the drug bust and recognizes Jesse he sees one and takes it.

If he truly was thinking about his family, he would have let his pride down, and accepted the job offer from Elliott. That's what a real family man would have done. That's in the first season of episode 5.

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10-01-2013, 07:20 AM
  #496
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Well that's just it, I believe the breaking points happen in Episode one, when he goes from sad, bored, depressed, underachieving high school chemical teacher, to a Meth cook that develops the purest form of it on the market and also happens to have killed two guys (at least he believes it). You know, you're no longer normal after this happens.
You can say that his family was his priority motive, but I simply disagree.
I can't think of anybody that have their family in mind who would end up doing something completely out of character, hook up with a dealer, cook meth, start selling, and kill people. I think there are ulterior motives that are driving him and that's why no matter how many times he says that he'll quit, he gets back into it.

I always felt that him saying he's doing this for his family is just a reason he convinces himself of for the simple reason of not feeling guilty about what he's done/doing.
Argue all you want, his motives are imbedded in every move he makes. Even as far as the lengths he will go to get his earned money to his family, even after it's clear that his double life is over, and even after his family tells him they have no more use for him (why don't you just die!) . The 737 episode was obvious and put things into context.

I will put this another way in the form of a question, if Walt was a financially secure teacher does the story even have a beginning?

You say you can't think of anybody who could possibly hook up in the meth game and be dedicated to their family, that's a big judgement on your part. I would argue that people who find themselves dying of cancer rarely get into the meth game for thrills and adrenaline. That's what skydiving and Bucket -Lists are for.

In any case I think it's up to the viewer to decide the value of Walt's life and to judge him on his motives. I don't see him as a psychopath.

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10-01-2013, 07:55 AM
  #497
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Argue all you want, his motives are imbedded in every move he makes. Even as far as the lengths he will go to get his earned money to his family, even after it's clear that his double life is over, and even after his family tells him they have no more use for him (why don't you just die!) . The 737 episode was obvious and put things into context.

I will put this another way in the form of a question, if Walt was a financially secure teacher does the story even have a beginning?

You say you can't think of anybody who could possibly hook up in the meth game and be dedicated to their family, that's a big judgement on your part. I would argue that people who find themselves dying of cancer rarely get into the meth game for thrills and adrenaline. That's what skydiving and Bucket -Lists are for.

In any case I think it's up to the viewer to decide the value of Walt's life and to judge him on his motives. I don't see him as a psychopath.
Agree completely (as we seem to have from the beginning). None of us (I hope) have been in the position of scrambling to make a mark before dying of a fatal disease. The cancer, the fortuitous drive-by with Hank where he first sees Jesse, the decision to cook meth as the way to make lots of quick cash, the psychopath dealers who are always one step away from killing him -- it's all a very contrived way to kick the show into gear and shove Walt down a path where his morality battles his ego and his survival instincts. As you said, if Walt hadn't been ground down so deeply by life before the cancer, he'd have very little motivation to climb up so high to compensate. The show would have no beginning.

Geez, if he'd been Canadian, the doctor would've told him he had cancer and that his free Medicare treatment starts next week. The end.

Good-guy Walt had no chance to thrive, and there was no show if he had. But good-guy Walt still hung on, even while Heisenberg's massive ego turned him into a raging egomaniac in the throes of total denial. I don't consider pride and ego to be 'evil', though the actions done in their names often are. Walt did some seriously evil stuff, but I maintain it's too easy to call him 'evil'. That simple description ignores all the conflict that fuelled Walter White through five seasons. If we acknowledge Walt's evil side, we also have to acknowledge his regret, his multiple attempts to save Jesse, his desperate stab at saving Hank, his final gambit to provide for his son, etc. Walt was that human side as much as he was his evil side. Anyone who doesn't get that has missed the great depth of this character and has, I think, missed the real point of this great series. There's nothing more interesting than a flawed character struggling with their flaws. Walt's flaws were huge and his struggle epic. That can only happen when the opposing sides of good and bad are balanced. If Walt was simply 'evil', there would have been no struggle, no battle, no drama, no interest.

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10-01-2013, 08:05 AM
  #498
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I watched Senna last night for the first time. I am a casual motorsport fan, and I was vaguely aware of the politics and reputation for some drivers at the time of Senna's run.

But the douch-baggery of Alain Prost and Jean-Marie Balestre in that day seems absolutely astounding. Some of those guys drove multimillion dollar machines like go-karts.

I remember when Schumacher had tried to take out Villeneuve to preserve his one point standing lead, and it failed. I lost respect for Schumacher that day. I had forgotten that Prost had turned into teammate Senna the same way. And then lobbying to get his own teammate DQ'd, holy **** what an idiot.

I understand the competitive dynamics of "teammates" in F1 , but how can a person so openly be an a-hole.

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10-01-2013, 08:08 AM
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Agree completely (as we seem to have from the beginning). None of us (I hope) have been in the position of scrambling to make a mark before dying of a fatal disease. The cancer, the fortuitous drive-by with Hank where he first sees Jesse, the decision to cook meth as the way to make lots of quick cash, the psychopath dealers who are always one step away from killing him -- it's all a very contrived way to kick the show into gear and shove Walt down a path where his morality battles his ego and his survival instincts. As you said, if Walt hadn't been ground down so deeply by life before the cancer, he'd have very little motivation to climb up so high to compensate. The show would have no beginning.

Geez, if he'd been Canadian, the doctor would've told him he had cancer and that his free Medicare treatment starts next week. The end.

Good-guy Walt had no chance to thrive, and there was no show if he had. But good-guy Walt still hung on, even while Heisenberg's massive ego turned him into a raging egomaniac in the throes of total denial. I don't consider pride and ego to be 'evil', though the actions done in their names often are. Walt did some seriously evil stuff, but I maintain it's too easy to call him 'evil'. That simple description ignores all the conflict that fuelled Walter White through five seasons. If we acknowledge Walt's evil side, we also have to acknowledge his regret, his multiple attempts to save Jesse, his desperate stab at saving Hank, his final gambit to provide for his son, etc. Walt was that human side as much as he was his evil side. Anyone who doesn't get that has missed the great depth of this character and has, I think, missed the real point of this great series. There's nothing more interesting than a flawed character struggling with their flaws. Walt's flaws were huge and his struggle epic. That can only happen when the opposing sides of good and bad are balanced. If Walt was simply 'evil', there would have been no struggle, no battle, no drama, no interest.
Well said, it is interesting how we see Walt become more and more evil as the show progresses. It becomes progressively worst and his ego becomes bigger. I think one of the reasons he became so evil was to try to correct his error of selling Gray Matter when the cost was so low. He wanted to have a successful business and it didn't matter to him if it was illegal because his ego took over.

I loved this show, it really was well made and the psychology of it all was very interesting.

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10-01-2013, 08:21 AM
  #500
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Agree completely (as we seem to have from the beginning). None of us (I hope) have been in the position of scrambling to make a mark before dying of a fatal disease. The cancer, the fortuitous drive-by with Hank where he first sees Jesse, the decision to cook meth as the way to make lots of quick cash, the psychopath dealers who are always one step away from killing him -- it's all a very contrived way to kick the show into gear and shove Walt down a path where his morality battles his ego and his survival instincts. As you said, if Walt hadn't been ground down so deeply by life before the cancer, he'd have very little motivation to climb up so high to compensate. The show would have no beginning.

Geez, if he'd been Canadian, the doctor would've told him he had cancer and that his free Medicare treatment starts next week. The end.

Good-guy Walt had no chance to thrive, and there was no show if he had. But good-guy Walt still hung on, even while Heisenberg's massive ego turned him into a raging egomaniac in the throes of total denial. I don't consider pride and ego to be 'evil', though the actions done in their names often are. Walt did some seriously evil stuff, but I maintain it's too easy to call him 'evil'. That simple description ignores all the conflict that fuelled Walter White through five seasons. If we acknowledge Walt's evil side, we also have to acknowledge his regret, his multiple attempts to save Jesse, his desperate stab at saving Hank, his final gambit to provide for his son, etc. Walt was that human side as much as he was his evil side. Anyone who doesn't get that has missed the great depth of this character and has, I think, missed the real point of this great series. There's nothing more interesting than a flawed character struggling with their flaws. Walt's flaws were huge and his struggle epic. That can only happen when the opposing sides of good and bad are balanced. If Walt was simply 'evil', there would have been no struggle, no battle, no drama, no interest.
As a high school teacher , if he lived in Ontario he would probably have a near 6 figure salary with 300 sick days banked, he could have gone onto a long term health leave making an indexed salary off a group benefits plan, or retired to an indexed pension, cashing in 6 months salary and double dipping as a supply teacher while managing tutoring assignments for $75/hr cash.

More lucrative than meth here in Ontari-ari-ari- owe.

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