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MLB Discussion Thread, Part II: Yanks pay Ellsbury

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Old
09-28-2013, 11:32 AM
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
The value on the bullpen is completely different then it was when Mariano entered the game.

Don't even know how that's debatable and a major reason for it is because of his dominance.
As everyone has said to you already, the evolution of the bullpen began before Mariano Rivera. You're making it sound as if the modern bullpen developed as a result of Rivera. In fact, I think the opposite is true: Rivera was allowed to become as dominant as he was because the modern closer position had already been established when he arrived.

You're entitled to your opinion, for sure. But the idea that modern bullpens are structured as they are because of him is just factually incorrect.

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09-28-2013, 12:35 PM
  #602
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What makes Mo so special is that he dominated for so long. He's still better than most relief pitchers in the game, even at his age.

Relief pitchers can be so inconsistent year in and year out, but he dominated at his position for so long that it's just astonishing. Not to mention that he was the closer for one of the most dominant stretches a professional sports team has ever seen, dominance that IMO (and I'm a big Yankee fan) ended this season.

Everyday players and starting pitching may be more valuable, but that doesn't take away the dominance and impact that a player like him made over his career and especially in the playoffs.

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09-28-2013, 02:15 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
As everyone has said to you already, the evolution of the bullpen began before Mariano Rivera. You're making it sound as if the modern bullpen developed as a result of Rivera. In fact, I think the opposite is true: Rivera was allowed to become as dominant as he was because the modern closer position had already been established when he arrived.

You're entitled to your opinion, for sure. But the idea that modern bullpens are structured as they are because of him is just factually incorrect.
If you go back to the dark recesses of baseball history, (before 1996), you'll discover that Tony LaRussa and his exclusive use of Dennis Eckersley in the 9th is where this all began.

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09-28-2013, 03:32 PM
  #604
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Are we talking about closers or bullpens as a whole here? Every piece of evidence you're using is specifically about closers.

Look, a great closer is very valuable. Nobody's arguing otherwise. But a great closer doesn't make up for a mediocre rotation or a lousy offense. For a closer to be valuable you have to be in the game late. And even then the closer isn't throwing more than a few innings if that. By design they have a limited role. That's why Rivera had what was by far his best season when he wasn't even the ninth inning guy. More innings mean more value and there's a very good case to be made that your relief ace should be saved not for the ninth, but for whenever in the late innings the game is on the line.

Again, Rivera's the greatest ever at his role and a first ballot Hall of Famer. I like him a lot even as somebody who hates his team's guts. But that doesn't change the fact that people are way, way, way overestimating the impact a closer can have on a game.
Regardless of the debate of how important a closer is. I don't think that's the point. Nobody is overestimating the impact of Mariano Rivera as a closer.

It's the impact of a man who has been a model of sportsmanship. We as Rangers fans see how Adam Graves is revered mostly because the guy's a saint off the ice. We also revere Mark Messier as one of the best to ever play. Imagine Mariano Rivera as both and you can understand why this was such a big deal.

I've heard alot of fans saying they don't quite get this whole thing, but his peers around the majors who got to play with him and got to know him are kissing the ground he walks on. He's gotta be doing something right.

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09-28-2013, 08:11 PM
  #605
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I just want to say Andy is also a class act, he knew this was his last year but he wanted all the exposure on Rivera

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09-28-2013, 08:48 PM
  #606
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I just did some research on draft tiebreakers. With their loss today, the Mets clinched at worst the 10th pick in the draft. They still have a chance to get up as high as seventh.

Our record puts us behind six teams (HOU, MIA, CHW, SEA, MIN, and CHC) no matter what. Our record has us already picking in front of everyone else but MIL, PHI, TOR, and COL no matter what.

Here are the scenarios if the Mets WIN tomorrow:
We pick ahead of Milwaukee regardless thanks to the tiebreaker
We pick ahead of Philadelphia if they win BOTH tonight and tomorrow thanks to the tiebreaker
We pick ahead of Toronto if they win (they own the tiebreaker)
We pick behind Colorado thanks to their record

Here are the scenarios if the Mets LOSE tomorrow:
We pick ahead of the Phillies if they win tonight OR tomorrow thanks to the tiebreaker
We pick ahead of Toronto thanks to our record
We pick ahead of Colorado if they win BOTH tonight and tomorrow

Notes:
The tiebreaker for MLB draft position is which team had a worse record in 2012. The tiebreaker could come into play for the Mets with four teams. They own the tiebreaker with Milwaukee and Philadelphia. Toronto and Colorado own the tiebreaker with the Mets.

Toronto's unsigned 10th overall pick from the 2013 draft does not come into play. They will receive the 11th pick in the 2014 draft.

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09-28-2013, 09:01 PM
  #607
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Pettitte with a complete game in his final regular season start. Thank you Andy for the memories.

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09-28-2013, 09:06 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Pettitte with a complete game in his final regular season start. Thank you Andy for the memories.
What an awesome performance.

Straight up Kevin Costner'd that game.

(For the Love of the Game)

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09-28-2013, 09:26 PM
  #609
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That Mo farewell tour was hard to watch, just think we will have to see another one very soon with Jeter, ugh

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09-28-2013, 10:31 PM
  #610
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Well that was moving.

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09-28-2013, 10:46 PM
  #611
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I'm unconcerned with our final draft position. As long as that pick is protected, I'm good. Welcome, Shin-soo Chu!

MetsBlog mentioned something about the loss also guaranteeing our draft pool or something. Can someone explain that to me?

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09-28-2013, 11:01 PM
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I'm unconcerned with our final draft position. As long as that pick is protected, I'm good. Welcome, Shin-soo Chu!

MetsBlog mentioned something about the loss also guaranteeing our draft pool or something. Can someone explain that to me?
The writer used the term "draft pool" in place of the better term -- "bonus pool". Each team is assigned a budget for their prospects' signing bonuses. The budget is based on the team's draft position, among other things. By guaranteeing a bottom-nine finish, the Mets get that protected top-nine draft pick as well as the bonus pool money that is associated with the pick.

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09-29-2013, 01:52 AM
  #613
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The tribute to Mariano from the fans on Thursday and Andy's performance tonight; couldn't ask for better ways to go out.

Of course I'd like to be in the playoffs, who wouldn't? But I can't be to distraught. I saw two games this year I'll never ever forget.

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09-29-2013, 07:26 AM
  #614
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Mike Piazza goes into the Mets Hall of Fame today.

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09-29-2013, 07:04 PM
  #615
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Mets with the 10th overall pick, a useless 5 game win streak and a win on the last day of the season bumping them down from 6th~.

Feels bad man.At least it's protected.

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09-29-2013, 08:18 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Mets with the 10th overall pick, a useless 5 game win streak and a win on the last day of the season bumping them down from 6th~.

Feels bad man.At least it's protected.
If we'd lost today we'd still be picking seventh. Stupid ****ing team.

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09-30-2013, 10:18 AM
  #617
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Now begins the fun season for the Yankees. So many question marks. Not many easy answers. AROD's appeal is being heard today. He said it will last 5 days. Joel Sherman wrote a decision may be made by the arbitrator at the end of the World Series. That would be ideal because it would give the Yankees more than enough time to make plans. Girardi is up for a new contract. He wants a raise from his $3M salary. Buster Olney reported that today. The Yankees should make qualifying offers to Cano,Kuroda and Granderson. $13M was the QO last season to retain the right to get draft pick compensation. Sherman also wrote the Yankees have shake up their scouting and minor league development departments. Damon Oppenheimer and Mark Newman. None of those 3 players will accept a one year deal worth $13M-$14M. The Yankees should stop bidding against themselves with Cano. Let him go to market. They should have interest in Kuroda for another year. Move on from Granderson. Hughes and Joba are free agents. The Yankees should look into signing Hughes to a 1 year deal with incentives and using him out of the pen. Move on from Joba. Gardner and Robertson are arb3 guys and one year away from free agnecy. Both of them are key players but both of them carry question marks. Gardner has the injury bug. Robertson hasn't very good as a closer in 2012 when Mariano hurt his knee. Soriano became the closer. Catcher is question mark. Stewart is a back-up. Cervelli can't ever stay healthy. Romine showed improvement but also can't shake the injury bug. Concussion. Murphy and Sanchez waiting in wings. Do the Yankees move a catcher for another young position player? They have depth there. Tex at 1B. Question mark at 2B. The Yankees don't have a sure thing on their roster. Its either age or a contract issue or a performance issue like Nunez. The left side of the infield is a question mark. Soriano,Wells and Ichiro are signed. The Cubs are paying most of the Soriano's contract. Same thing with Wells. The Yankees are getting for free in 2014 but he stinks. Ichiro is a waste of time at $6.5M. CC and Nova in the rotation. Maybe Pineda will finally make an apperance. Phelps? Warren? Maybe they can re-sign Kuroda. The pen is Robertson and Kelly. Other teams put together a bullpen and they win. They don't have the #1 closer in major league baseball. Somehow they win.

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09-30-2013, 09:14 PM
  #618
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162 game season and the MLB needs 3 one-off play-in games to draw a playoff bracket?
The money grubbing is shameless and it's ruining the integrity of the sport more than steroids ever did IMO. NFL is also supposedly rumored to be expanding the playoffs. I couldn't care less what happens in either of these leagues any more outside of placing wagers to make extra money.

NHL is skating on very thin ice (pun intended) with all of their ******** as well. Brush it off all you want, but when one of the best players in the league leaves prestigious team to play in front of 4,000 people in Siberia there's a problem.

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09-30-2013, 09:41 PM
  #619
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162 game season and the MLB needs 3 one-off play-in games to draw a playoff bracket?
The money grubbing is shameless and it's ruining the integrity of the sport more than steroids ever did IMO. NFL is also supposedly rumored to be expanding the playoffs. I couldn't care less what happens in either of these leagues any more outside of placing wagers to make extra money.

NHL is skating on very thin ice (pun intended) with all of their ******** as well. Brush it off all you want, but when one of the best players in the league leaves prestigious team to play in front of 4,000 people in Siberia there's a problem.
What would you have them do? Two teams tied so they're having a play-in game. They've had play-in games forever. The only difference is that this one is to get into the wild card round rather than the divisional series. They wanted to reward teams for winning their divisions so they forced the wild cards into one game playoffs. It's not a perfect system, but it's better than having division titles completely de-emphasized.

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09-30-2013, 09:50 PM
  #620
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Does anyone else think the one game wild-card round is kind of stupid? These teams fight all year long for a wildcard spot and its decided with one game? Wouldnt be that hard to do a 3 game series at the higher seeds ballpark.

The one-game tie break is fine, but the wildcard round should be 3 games.

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09-30-2013, 09:56 PM
  #621
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weird hearing lets go rangers chants but its the other rangers lol

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09-30-2013, 10:19 PM
  #622
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Kuroda stunk in the second half. He got tired after the all star break. Move on from him. Granderson is injury prone too, goodbye. We're unfortunately stuck with Ichiro and Wells. Both aren't bad bench options, but neither are every day players at this point in their careers. There's an open spot in the outfield. Gardner and Soriano have LF and CF all but locked up. Maybe they move Soriano back to 2nd base if the Cano negotiations go absolutely nuclear. Who knows. I do eventually think the Yankees will bring Cano back. I'd give him close to the money, but I wouldn't bring him back for the 10 years he's asking for. I think GM's have learned their lesson from the ARod and Pujols contracts.

The rotation next season should be CC, Nova, Pineda, and Phelps. The 5th spot can be filled by a kid that wins the spot or a free agent.

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09-30-2013, 10:30 PM
  #623
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Kuroda stunk in the second half. He got tired after the all star break. Move on from him. Granderson is injury prone too, goodbye. We're unfortunately stuck with Ichiro and Wells. Both aren't bad bench options, but neither are every day players at this point in their careers. There's an open spot in the outfield. Gardner and Soriano have LF and CF all but locked up. Maybe they move Soriano back to 2nd base if the Cano negotiations go absolutely nuclear. Who knows. I do eventually think the Yankees will bring Cano back. I'd give him close to the money, but I wouldn't bring him back for the 10 years he's asking for. I think GM's have learned their lesson from the ARod and Pujols contracts.

The rotation next season should be CC, Nova, Pineda, and Phelps. The 5th spot can be filled by a kid that wins the spot or a free agent.
That team won't make the playoffs.

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09-30-2013, 10:40 PM
  #624
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I know its short sighted but even at the end of the year I wanted the Mets to finish strong and win as much as possible.I could never root for any of my teams to lose for a better pick.

Does anyone have a solid number the Mets can spend this year? Ive heard 35 to 40M?

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09-30-2013, 10:42 PM
  #625
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How much is Granderson gonna ask per year? He would look good in the Mets OF

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