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2nd line centre..why not Higgins?

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11-26-2006, 12:03 PM
  #1
Rayne*
 
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2nd line centre..why not Higgins?

As much as I would not want to tamper with that 1st line of Higgins-Koivu-Ryder, Latendresse has filled the LW spot just fine in Higgins' absence, so why not try out Higgins at the 2nd line centre position? He can play centre just as well as he can play LW, so I wouldn't be opposed to trying it, seeing as Higgins is a goal scorer and Samsonov is a playmaking winger. If it doesn't work out, we can resume debating whether or not to trade for a centre.

Latendresse-Koivu-Ryder
Samsonov-Higgins-Kovalev

Thoughts?

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11-26-2006, 12:11 PM
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tinyzombies
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Originally Posted by Ecliptica View Post
As much as I would not want to tamper with that 1st line of Higgins-Koivu-Ryder, Latendresse has filled the LW spot just fine in Higgins' absence, so why not try out Higgins at the 2nd line centre position? He can play centre just as well as he can play LW, so I wouldn't be opposed to trying it, seeing as Higgins is a goal scorer and Samsonov is a playmaking winger. If it doesn't work out, we can resume debating whether or not to trade for a centre.

Latendresse-Koivu-Ryder
Samsonov-Higgins-Kovalev

Thoughts?
Higgins is our best winger and goalscorer. Without him that first line is not the same. I would rather just put Samsonov in the pressbox and live with Kovalev.

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11-26-2006, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
Higgins is our best winger and goalscorer. Without him that first line is not the same. I would rather just put Samsonov in the pressbox and live with Kovalev.
I definitely see the reasoning behind that, but having Higgins in between Sammy and Kovy might jumpstart both of them. If not, then Higgy can go back to the 1st line. I'm just curious to see how it would work out.

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11-26-2006, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ecliptica View Post
I definitely see the reasoning behind that, but having Higgins in between Sammy and Kovy might jumpstart both of them. If not, then Higgy can go back to the 1st line. I'm just curious to see how it would work out.
I don't know, to me Higgins is the guy who should be in the primary role. He's proven that he will do the work and can finish. Those other guys don't do that. Higgins is BY FAR our best winger. Putting him at center and asking him to set up two mediocre wingers doesn't make sense to me.

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11-26-2006, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecliptica View Post
I definitely see the reasoning behind that, but having Higgins in between Sammy and Kovy might jumpstart both of them. If not, then Higgy can go back to the 1st line. I'm just curious to see how it would work out.
Although, I think that Higgins could do a fine job as a centre. He is our top winger. He is made to be a winger. He is good in the corners and excels when he has a playmaking centre.

Personally, I think Pleks can do a fine job as #2 centre. The problem is in having Kovalev and Sammy on the same line. IMO, even Koivu couldn't get these two working well together.

Higgins - Koivu - Kovy
Sammy - Pleks - Ryder

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11-26-2006, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
Although, I think that Higgins could do a fine job as a centre. He is our top winger. He is made to be a winger. He is good in the corners and excels when he has a playmaking centre.

Personally, I think Pleks can do a fine job as #2 centre. The problem is in having Kovalev and Sammy on the same line. IMO, even Koivu couldn't get these two working well together.

Higgins - Koivu - Kovy
Sammy - Pleks - Ryder
I don't like the idea of Ryder and Sammy on the same line. First of all, that line is way too small. Second, the wingers are poor defensively and can't make a pass for their lives (or even try to pass).

I think our top line is fine as it is. When Higgins gets back, Ryder will start producing again.

Face it, three of our top 4 wingers are poor defensively. That's not good.

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11-26-2006, 12:44 PM
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Ryder is not poor defensively anymore.

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11-26-2006, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
I don't like the idea of Ryder and Sammy on the same line. First of all, that line is way too small. Second, the wingers are poor defensively and can't make a pass for their lives (or even try to pass).

I think our top line is fine as it is. When Higgins gets back, Ryder will start producing again.

Face it, three of our top 4 wingers are poor defensively. That's not good.
I do see where you are coming from when you say that Ryder and Sammy together would make for an unreliable defensive line but I don't think Ryder is that much more of a liability and that much smaller than Kovalev.

IMO, we need to separate those two. Could Sammy play RW? Maybe with Koivu and Higgins.

Or perhaps
Sammy - Koivu - Ryder
Higgins - Plekanec - Kovalev

I remember last year when we had a 4th line of Higgins - Plekanec - Begin, Higgs and Pleks had great chemistry

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11-26-2006, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
I don't know, to me Higgins is the guy who should be in the primary role. He's proven that he will do the work and can finish. Those other guys don't do that. Higgins is BY FAR our best winger. Putting him at center and asking him to set up two mediocre wingers doesn't make sense to me.
Skillwise, Sammy and Kovy are far from mediocre wingers. It's just sad that they play that way more often than not.

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11-26-2006, 01:22 PM
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I'm starting to feel that even if Samsonov was put on a line with Koivu and Higgins he wouldn't produce. When Higgins returns I say bench him and if he whines to the media and his agent again about being the 'go-to guy' Gainey can have a little chat with him.
Until Gainey either calls Hamilton or makes a trade;

Latendresse/Koivu/Ryder
Higgins/Plekanec/Kovalev

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11-26-2006, 02:00 PM
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I would try

Sammy/Koivu/Ryder
Higgins/Pleks/Kovalev

I think Sammy can do a lot more, he mostly always played with Kovalev so I would try him with someone else. When you play with Kovalev, you need to addapt to his play, but when you play with Koivu, it's Koivu who will addapt his play to fit with you and that's why he's making everyone produce.

But I don't know if Koivu was the reason why Higgins was putting that many points on the board, so I don't know if he's the solution qith Kovalev. He would still be a great player but I'm just not sure he would make that line produce, at least I think he would give a bit of energy to Kovalev by working hard in the corners.

My other question mark is that both Koivu and Higgins said that they really like to play with each other so I don't know if it would be a great idea to separate them.

Finaly, a fourth line with tender,begin and dandy would be really great.

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11-26-2006, 02:29 PM
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I want 2 see :
Latendresse - Koivu - Kovalev
The K's are working well together... Latendresse is the man in front of the net to tip it in, and he is good in the corner.
Samsonov - Higgins - Ryder
Higgins and Ryder do well together and Samsonov not gonna hurt them. He would be the best playmaker on this line.
Third line stay the same
One of the best 3rd line in the league.
Bégin - Plekanec - Dandenault
That called SPEED and energy. They would be awesome together to stop opponent best line.


Last edited by KaptainKourage*: 11-26-2006 at 02:35 PM.
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11-26-2006, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Ryder is not poor defensively anymore.
I guess you missed last night's game.

I would rather have a winger like a Matt Cullen than any of these flashy stinkhandling pansies to be honest. Kovalev I can live with because he has size and can crank it up come playoff time. So you can live with his flaws. But the rest of these guys should be cleaned out. Especially now that Perez and Pleks are ready. Time to move out the garbage.

The Samsonov signing is almost as bad as when Gainey signed Audette and Turgeon in Dallas. That's what got him "fired". I don't know why he would repeat the mistake, especially when we have a team full of non-aggressive forwards (though it's starting to change) and have had a big problem with that the last 15 years.

Any lineup I would make would start with Samsonov and Niinimaa on another team or in the pressbox. Sorry.

Higgins-Koivu-Ryder
(nothing wrong with this line if Higgins is there)

Johnson-Bonk-Kovalev
(Bonk is our best player right now; these two would do the work for Kovy, and Johnson is a "glue guy" who can set him up)

Latendresse-Plekanec-Perezhogin
(play the overload so Lats can set up shop on the right side in the offensive zone too; Pleks-Perez have chemistry and so do Lats-Perez from the little time I've seen of them together. I'm hoping they do this at some point.)

Begin-Lapierre-Downey
(Murray isn't cutting it, time to bring in the kid and have Begin and Downey help him adjust)


Markov-Souray
(These guys are a good tandem on the powerplay, why not all the time?)

Komisarek-Rivet
(Komi would help Rivet in his own zone. A decent second pair. Komi looked good when he played the left side. It simplifies things for him, just bang it off the glass.)

Bouillon-Dandenault
(A decent third pair with speed, just monitor their minutes and watch size matchups.)

Streit

Huet (make him #1 right now)
Aeby


Last edited by tinyzombies: 11-26-2006 at 03:08 PM.
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11-26-2006, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Ryder is not poor defensively anymore.
yes he is . You can be good on the PK , and poor on the 5 on 5 situation , because it's not the same game . The reading is more easy because you stay in a square team position and try to be in the passing corridors .

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11-26-2006, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
I would rather have a winger like a Matt Cullen than any of these flashy stinkhandling pansies to be honest. Kovalev I can live with because he has size and can crank it up come playoff time. So you can live with his flaws. But the rest of these guys should be cleaned out.
Ryder isn't a flashy stickhandling pansy either.

If you can stand Kovalev, then the only players that can fit your description are: Samsonov, Koivu and Perezhogin. The latter two aren't really pansies and bring strong fundamentals to the table, so then I'm left to believe you're exaggerating and referring exclusively to Samsonov.

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11-26-2006, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by #ZAMBONI# View Post
yes he is . You can be good on the PK , and poor on the 5 on 5 situation , because it's not the same game . The reading is more easy because you stay in a square team position and try to be in the passing corridors .
I never mentioned the PK, so why you'd assume I was referring to his solid PK play is beyond me.

Ryder hustles back defensively. He's strong on the backcheck. He competes and does a very good job of being aggressive along the boards to bulldoze the puck out of the zone. He uses his size and thickness and ability to keep the puck ahead of him to move the puck out in that regard.

I would agree that Ryder struggles with reading the play and anticipating it, but he is currently compensating for that by his willingness to compete more than his opponent. That's what makes him a better-than-average player in the defensive zone.

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11-26-2006, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ecliptica View Post
Latendresse-Koivu-Ryder
Samsonov-Higgins-Kovalev

Thoughts?
I was thinking somewhere along the lines of the same thing while I was watching the Habs/Flyers game.

Fact is, Plekanec is not getting the job done.

He looks too rammy and his linemates don't appear to have much confidence in him right now. On the bright side, the effort is still very much there, so maybe he just needs time.

I'd love to see if we couldn't slot Higgins between Sammy and Kovalev and generate another solid scoring threat.. because in all honesty, the only time our second unit looks deadly right now is when Kovalev keeps the puck the whole time.

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11-26-2006, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Ryder isn't a flashy stickhandling pansy either.

If you can stand Kovalev, then the only players that can fit your description are: Samsonov, Koivu and Perezhogin. The latter two aren't really pansies and bring strong fundamentals to the table, so then I'm left to believe you're exaggerating and referring exclusively to Samsonov.
I'm referring mainly to Samsonov because we can't do anything about Kovalev right now, we don't have anyone to take his place. And like I said, he does have a history of showing up at playoff time (though giving up after that slash in OT against Boston sticks in my mind).

Ryder is not a perfect player, and I don't expect that from him. But without Higgins to clean things up, he's a real liability. Especially when he tries to go through the whole team every single time. I think he's grown delusional. I'd like to see him get back to what he's effective at = a quick release off the half-boards in traffic to A CORNER (not the logo!). I always thought he was better on left wing myself just because he has a better angle for his shot.

Koivu is not a wimp at all, I don't even know why you would bring up his name.

Perezhogin is probably our hardest worker next to Begin.

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11-26-2006, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KaptainKourage View Post
I want 2 see :
Latendresse - Koivu - Kovalev
The K's are working well together... Latendresse is the man in front of the net to tip it in, and he is good in the corner.
Samsonov - Higgins - Ryder
Higgins and Ryder do well together and Samsonov not gonna hurt them. He would be the best playmaker on this line.
Third line stay the same
One of the best 3rd line in the league.
Bégin - Plekanec - Dandenault
That called SPEED and energy. They would be awesome together to stop opponent best line.
100% behind you. That is exactly what I would try. When Koivu and Kovalev are on the ice at the same time, they create something and more often than not, they score. Plus Kovy actually passes the puck to Koivu way more than he does with other players. It can't be bad. Plus Latendresse would be well surronded and could develop faster.

Higgins and Ryder have proven chemistry so they could work well together. Plus Samsonov is speed and can control the puck, he would add alot to that line. That would give us two really balanced scoring line, a great defensive line and a REALLY good energy line. It would be perfect IMO.

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11-26-2006, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by KaptainKourage View Post
I want 2 see :
Latendresse - Koivu - Kovalev
The K's are working well together... Latendresse is the man in front of the net to tip it in, and he is good in the corner.
Samsonov - Higgins - Ryder
Higgins and Ryder do well together and Samsonov not gonna hurt them. He would be the best playmaker on this line.
Third line stay the same
One of the best 3rd line in the league.
Bégin - Plekanec - Dandenault
That called SPEED and energy. They would be awesome together to stop opponent best line.
Pretty good. I could see Kovy being impatient with Lats though. The defense on our wings in the top 6 just makes me wince.

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11-26-2006, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
Pretty good. I could see Kovy being impatient with Lats though.
I don't think so, Kovy will be happy to play with Saku and they will obviously produce. So if Lats gives Kovy the puck when he wants it, there will be no problems IMO.

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11-26-2006, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DanyHeatley#1Fan View Post
I don't think so, Kovy will be happy to play with Saku and they will obviously produce. So if Lats gives Kovy the puck when he wants it, there will be no problems IMO.
I like it and I think it's possible we could see something like that. They aren't going to give up on Samsonov as quickly as I have.

If Dandenault is up front that means Streit is in the lineup up full-time, probably with Bouillon. That's a pretty small pairing. Streit has improved, but I don't trust him still.

I would change things and get some size in there.

Instead of having Streit and Samosonov in the lineup, I would put Lapierre in there.

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11-26-2006, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
I like it and I think it's possible we could see something like that. They aren't going to give up on Samsonov as quickly as I have.

If Dandenault is up front that means Streit is in the lineup up full-time, probably with Bouillon. That's a pretty small pairing. Streit has improved, but I don't trust him still.

I would change things and get some size in there.

Instead of having Streit and Samosonov in the lineup, I would put Lapierre in there.
If you think Lapierre is better than Samsonov, you have a problem sir.
But i like the idea of putting Dandenault as 6th defensmen, let Streit in the pressbox and stick Lapierre to Bégin and Plek

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11-26-2006, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
I like it and I think it's possible we could see something like that. They aren't going to give up on Samsonov as quickly as I have.

If Dandenault is up front that means Streit is in the lineup up full-time, probably with Bouillon. That's a pretty small pairing. Streit has improved, but I don't trust him still.

I would change things and get some size in there.

Instead of having Streit and Samosonov in the lineup, I would put Lapierre in there.
You know, the fourth line doesn't play a lot of minutes and Dandenault will be used more than 8-10 minutes a game. He absolutely can play 20-25 minutes IMO, 10 on offense, 10-15 on defense, what's wrong with that? He can play the PK and Streit will miss some shifts. I'm not worry about Streit at all. Give him the PP and half the shifts with Bouillon and it would be perfect, IMO. Lapierre could be brought and Streit scratched at some point, but right now, I believe that Streit deserve to play and none of the other dmen deserve to sit, so IMO, it is the only solution.

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11-26-2006, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by KaptainKourage View Post
If you think Lapierre is better than Samsonov, you have a problem sir.
But i like the idea of putting Dandenault as 6th defensmen, let Streit in the pressbox and stick Lapierre to Bégin and Plek
They are different types of players. Lapierre wouldn't replace Samsonov, he'd be on the fourth line and the top three lines would be rearranged. Samsonov won't be in the lineup come playoff time anyway, just like Edmonton benched him.

You can't have Dandenault switching from forward to defense in the same game. That's unfair to him and there's no way they'd do it. The only reason you see it happening a bit now is because they are slowly breaking him in from injury.

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