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2014 - Finland Roster Discussion

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Old
09-25-2013, 05:00 PM
  #501
FiLe
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Originally Posted by jfc64 View Post
You got two and a half NHL defender-men.
Actually, if training camp prowess is anything to go by, we currently have more like four NHL-caliber d-men (more technically, two full-time and four borderline cases, but it adds up to that) and a solid crop of KHLers. What we could use is some more top talent, true. But all you were offering us was a bunch of Swedish leftovers - and we're actually not THAT desperate, thankyouweddymuch.

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Originally Posted by jfc64 View Post
And I need a backup. If I hand over the guys you want you would become dangerous
As would you, if we give you even a single one of our top goalies. So yeah, not a lot of incentive there either.

Bottom line is, you want us to hand over three solid 24K gold ingots in exchange of what, a bunch of pickings that fell off the truck? Sorry, we're not daft enough to see that it's obviously a rather one-sided deal, no matter how you twist it.


And if all you need is a backup, are you telling me you really need one of ours? You have, let's see... Jhonas Enroth who just backstopped you to WHC gold, Jacob "the golden kid" Markström... and Viktor "6-1" Fasth - won't any of them do?


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09-26-2013, 08:04 AM
  #502
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Dont want to start flame wars again but Jussi Jokinen scored a breakaway goal again last night making him entire nhl preseason 2nd best goalscorer. This is what i originally wanted for finland in the olympic first line aswell. mikko and valtteri making plays and jussi sniping them in. So far from the stats i could find Tuomo Ruutu has only played in one preeason game 12 minutes. On other note Mikael Granlund will 95% likely start the season in Iowa AHL. well i dont know how much it hinders his chances to make the team but his competitor for 2nd line Ville Leino is powering up his game in Buffalo at the same time. Olli Määttä and Rasmus Ristolainen have done really well in the preseason games ive watched and both have chance to stay up. Interesting season ahead.

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Old
09-26-2013, 08:56 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Erikfromfin View Post
Dont want to start flame wars again but Jussi Jokinen scored a breakaway goal again last night making him entire nhl preseason 2nd best goalscorer. This is what i originally wanted for finland in the olympic first line aswell. mikko and valtteri making plays and jussi sniping them in. So far from the stats i could find Tuomo Ruutu has only played in one preeason game 12 minutes. On other note Mikael Granlund will 95% likely start the season in Iowa AHL. well i dont know how much it hinders his chances to make the team but his competitor for 2nd line Ville Leino is powering up his game in Buffalo at the same time. Olli Määttä and Rasmus Ristolainen have done really well in the preseason games ive watched and both have chance to stay up. Interesting season ahead.
JJ's goals during the preseason do not change anything regarding his position in Sochi. He mayor may not be on the first line, but he's not taking Tuomo's spot. That's the end of this discussion as far as I'm concerned.

I do not see Leino as a threat to MiG at all, because one of them has shown the ability to play well with just about anyone on the NT while the other one is an unpredictable artistic player who requires just the right linemates to succeed. Taking Leino while leaving even an AHL-MiG off the team would be like buying a pig in a sack and not even looking at the pigs you can see. If Rolston can find Leino good linemates in Buffalo, sure he can rack up points but there's zero guarantee that Erkka will be able to achieve the same feat in such a short time.

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09-27-2013, 10:04 PM
  #504
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^^ Granlund will get the opening night spot in the Wild and I bet he will stick. Anyways, MG has a free pass to the team, and I don't mind it at all. When he can focus on offense hes stellar. Very important piece of the puzzle. On the other hand, Leino is Leino and has zero chance to make the team - he doesn't fit the bill which is sad but true.

And Jokinen should get a chance to play in the top line if he keeps up his recent form. There should not be set anything in stone as regards line combos. The best play and so on. This truism should be set in stone, nothing else.

Now Armia is out indefinitely due to his injury, so it doesn't look that promising for him right now. I think I can bury my hopes to see him in Sochi. -- But Teravainen - if and when he tears it up in the FEL - should be in the mix.

Okay, keep it simple and - plain.

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09-28-2013, 02:35 AM
  #505
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Jussi could play on the top line ahead of Filppula, but there is zero chance he makes it ahead of Tuomo.

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09-28-2013, 06:00 AM
  #506
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Ristolainen impressed me earlier and mtv3 says he's also impressed coaches.. we've got new 18yo NHL defender probably.

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09-28-2013, 11:37 AM
  #507
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Well atleast tuomo ruutu can have his mind at ease according to 99% people in this thread he can play however bad or good he will be in team. he played only in one preseason game 12 minutes. even if he gets 0+0 in entire autumn season and or is half fit or injured his got place in finland top line. On same note we can forget talking about how good different players forms are during this season all the team building is focused on old merits. this is what 99% of u are saying.

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09-28-2013, 11:50 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Erikfromfin View Post
Well atleast tuomo ruutu can have his mind at ease according to 99% people in this thread he can play however bad or good he will be in team. he played only in one preseason game 12 minutes. even if he gets 0+0 in entire autumn season and or is half fit or injured his got place in finland top line. On same note we can forget talking about how good different players forms are during this season all the team building is focused on old merits. this is what 99% of u are saying.
I agree. Ruutu's place is not guaranteed in 1st line. To me, Koivu-Ruutu isn't that special line, it's just been there so many times, because it has been best choise at that time. Koivu could use better shooter (finisher) than Ruutu is.. Sadly it has been many times so, that there is none available. Now it looks like we'll have better shooter in JJ if he continues what he is doing. There is big chance he makes 1st line over Tuomo, if he continues the trend he's had and Tuomo continues he's trend. Teemu would also make it but he shouldn't probably play 1st line minutes. If he could, Tuomo - Mikko - Teemu could work well. Mikko and Tuomo can do alot but they can't barry enough rebounds or score with shots.

FIL - KOIVU - RUUTU "isn't good enough" for top line in olympic games if we stop being homers and face the truth.. It needs better finishing.. It's sad how low we are on shooters atm. In that line, one of the wings will be replaced with hottest scorer at that time. Unless its one of those guys... but it isn't.


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09-28-2013, 06:09 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by QnebO View Post
FIL - KOIVU - RUUTU "isn't good enough" for top line in olympic games if we stop being homers and face the truth.. It needs better finishing.. It's sad how low we are on shooters atm. In that line, one of the wings will be replaced with hottest scorer at that time. Unless its one of those guys... but it isn't.
True, it's a far cry from other elite teams' top lines. But the thing is, we do NOT have enough guys with granted finishing ability that would make Ruutu irrelevant for the role. We need contributions from Jokinen, Selänne and Ruutu EACH if we are to get anywhere. And in Ruutu's case, that has the best chances of happening when he plays with Koivu.

Once again, if Jokinen slinks to a lower line, it does not mean he plays less minutes or with worse mates. It simply means he plays there because those lower lines need some finishing ability too, and he's a better fit there than Ruutu is. I don't really disagree with people who say that we need some heavy contributions from our supposed top line if we are to get anywhere. They are right. To be more exact, they are partially right. The whole truth is that we need that line, plus a couple lines more with similar level of contributions to get anywhere. And if one has any chance of spreading the wealth, one should.

Seriously, people. You need to widen your perspectives a bit, and try to work out how we can get most out of the whole squad, not just the top line. Because: A good, balanced lineup > one sick line that can finish.

I would probably understand better if Ruutu really was a player way past his prime and tying him to Koivu would be like tying our one of our top guys to a dead weight and let him sink. But it's not. When healthy, Ruutu is a player who still very much rivals Jokinen in every aspect of the game. One camp season, which seems to be the only basis some people have for their argument, does NOT change that fact.



Now, let's look at what we have, in summary... one side sees two largely comparable players, both with solid records, a short tournament, no preparation time, past chemistry... all of which adds up to a pretty natural conclusion. And the other side sees... one two-week period, where one player has dazzled whereas other has had "12 minutes in one game" - in pre-season. And that is the only argument they have. Really?

How can this debate still even be alive? The least some people could do, is wait around the holidays before coming up with this argument, because, luck willing, by then they could at least point out what these two guys have done over past three months instead of what they did yesterday. I know life's short, but it's really not THAT short.


Last edited by FiLe: 09-28-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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Old
09-29-2013, 10:46 AM
  #510
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The Final big preliminary roster where all the possible players to be considered will be released before october first. after that list nomore players outside the list will be added later on.

on jussi vs tuomo i think everythings said already from both sides. at the moment its tuomo whose gotto prove his level not jussi. only in finland it seems to be bad thing excelling at preseason somehow i dont understand. its not the 12 preseason minutes tuomo has played this season but he only played 17 games last season aswell. people talk about opening horizons and view points but themselves try to force this injured player to top line nomatter what.

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09-29-2013, 11:02 AM
  #511
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Jussi has been proving himself since the trade, not just pre season.

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09-29-2013, 11:17 AM
  #512
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Jussi has been proving himself since the trade, not just pre season.
True.

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09-29-2013, 12:38 PM
  #513
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on jussi vs tuomo i think everythings said already from both sides. at the moment its tuomo whose gotto prove his level not jussi. only in finland it seems to be bad thing excelling at preseason somehow i dont understand.
Oh, c'mon. There's nothing bad about excelling in pre-season. But it's equally frivolous to come here and argue that one good streak in games meant for practice and experimentation should decide slots, especially since the games are still five months away. You're welcome to argue your case if Jokinen is still hot come next February, but as of right now the stuff he's shown should and does not trump all those years of chemistry Koivu and Ruutu have shown together.

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its not the 12 preseason minutes tuomo has played this season but he only played 17 games last season aswell. people talk about opening horizons and view points but themselves try to force this injured player to top line nomatter what.
Oh, c'mon - again. If Ruutu is injured come the olympics, he probably doesn't play in the olympics. But if he's healthy, he's in. And if he's in, he's certainly shown us enough to book himself a spot in the top line with his BFF.

The good news is that what either you, I or anyone else in here say doesn't make an iota of difference with what Erkka is going to do. Either he sees Ruutu a better fit for Koivu, or Jokinen, or as was suggested before, both. In any case, there's certainly no point in coming here and keep repeating that unorthodox point, as if someone believed that one can simply force his will into reality if he just keeps on parroting it.

So, the way I see it, we've got two ways to go about this. We know what you think. So now we can wait 'til the games begin, and see how Erkka sets up the lines. If he figures Jokinen is a better fit for the top line than Ruutu, you're welcome to come here and feed me and all the other traditionalists a healthy dose of "told you so".

Or... we can keep at it, all the way up to the games. A healthy, friendly debate to keep everyone warm. And if and when Koivu and Ruutu are slotted in the same line, as usual, and if and when they end up doing well for themselves, as usual... it's going to be me, who's going to make oh-so very sure that you will hear about this from here to kingdom come. Doubly so, if Jokinen ends up being a stud as well in whatever line he ends up in.


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09-29-2013, 01:39 PM
  #514
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Good points file. lets return to this subject in december if can restrain myself till then

on a positive note Granlund did make minnesota squad taking zuckers spot

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09-30-2013, 11:17 PM
  #515
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on a positive note Granlund did make minnesota squad taking zuckers spot
No, Granlund took his own spot. Given how he still is Minny's top prospect, and playing as he was, he should have had room in there somewhere all along.


In other news, looks like Määttä made it too. Probably mostly due to the Letang injury and Pens' cap trouble, but eh, what the hell, I'll take it anyway. What comes to our olympic squad, the time to cork the champagne is if he makes it past the nine-game-mark. Still, no reason to be watching how he can handle some NHL action in the meantime.

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10-01-2013, 03:53 PM
  #516
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In other news, looks like Määttä made it too. Probably mostly due to the Letang injury and Pens' cap trouble, but eh, what the hell, I'll take it anyway. What comes to our olympic squad, the time to cork the champagne is if he makes it past the nine-game-mark. Still, no reason to be watching how he can handle some NHL action in the meantime.
Indeed, we should take all we can get in this situation. I still don't believe we would be lucky enough to have both Ristolainen and Määttä make the NHL now when they are needed the most by the NT, but should it happen, I would roll with the following defensive pairs in Sochi:

Timonen-Ristolainen
Määttä-Salo
Väänänen-Vatanen
Järvinen-Melart

It's clear that Timonen and Salo would play much more than the youngsters but the idea here is to make sure they never end up on the ice at the same time without a veteran defenseman.

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10-01-2013, 05:38 PM
  #517
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Thats pretty balsy defensive lineup. too much headache figuring what ideal defense could be so ill leave it to ya and erka. and at the moment petteri nummelin should be finland nr2 center

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10-02-2013, 01:34 AM
  #518
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It's clear that Timonen and Salo would play much more than the youngsters but the idea here is to make sure they never end up on the ice at the same time without a veteran defenseman.
You know, even if Määttä doesn't get sent back down to London after those nine games, something tells me he'll still be a long way away from a ticket. While I don't disagree with those pairings of yours since it would likely be the best with that eight, the big question is if Erkka will want that eight to begin with. I mean, you can do it with one, but two... there could be too much juggling with what's been true and tested in order to integrate the new kids into the mix. It's the same thing as when building an offensive lineup. Your absolute best twelve individuals don't always make up the best possible unit.

Also, while we're craving for some NHL experience, let's take a deeper look at Määttä's status even if he manages to stay up. He'll still likely be a bottom-pair-guy, at least for this first season of his. And if you have an NHL bottom feeder, especially a young one with zero men's NT experience and a more seasoned player who clocks big minutes in the KHL, does the former truly trump the latter? Especially when the games will be in Europe and on big ice.

So yeah. Even if both kids stay up, I still wouldn't really be surprised that Erkka only takes one and not the other, unless they both somehow pull a Brodin and become key players in their squad. And currently RR looks better for it, because he truly has a chance to rob himself a considerable spot in Buffalo - and even if he doesn't, Teppo's there to keep a close eye on him and will no doubt relay all he sees to Erkka.

Määttä is a key name in the future and even if he might be a better individual already, at this moment his CV isn't holding up to that of someone like Lepistö. And one fall season may not be enough time to add up to it.

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Originally Posted by Erikfromfin View Post
too much headache figuring what ideal defense could be so ill leave it to ya and erka.
Now, if you'd only do the same for offense too... heh, okay. Let's not go there, and just wait 'til December.

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10-02-2013, 11:36 AM
  #519
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Apparently the revised player list was delivered to the IOC yesterday. Looks like the list won't be made public, but YLE interviewed Erkka and gave us a lengthy piece of his mind.


It's split in several shorter headlines, so I won't be linking 'em all here, but here are some interesting lifts:

- NHLers have no special preference by NHL status alone. KHL is also under heavy consideration, not the least since the games will be played in Russia. Erkka also pointed out that if the KHL wasn't as strong as it was, many Finns playing there would be in the NHL.

- Erkka uses txt-tv p. 235 to scout the NHLers. Really.

- Määttä and Ristolainen are both on the new list.

- Erkka has not given up on Lydman, still holding hope that he will play somewhere this fall.

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10-03-2013, 07:16 AM
  #520
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Erkka should give a call to Lydman and ask what he's going to do. If he has no intention of playing anywhere anytime soon, he has no business in Sochi. That much should be clear.

Perhaps I am reading too much between the lines but I think Erkka has a scenario on his mind where Barkov makes it.

Quote:
You know, even if Määttä doesn't get sent back down to London after those nine games, something tells me he'll still be a long way away from a ticket. While I don't disagree with those pairings of yours since it would likely be the best with that eight, the big question is if Erkka will want that eight to begin with. I mean, you can do it with one, but two... there could be too much juggling with what's been true and tested in order to integrate the new kids into the mix. It's the same thing as when building an offensive lineup. Your absolute best twelve individuals don't always make up the best possible unit.

Also, while we're craving for some NHL experience, let's take a deeper look at Määttä's status even if he manages to stay up. He'll still likely be a bottom-pair-guy, at least for this first season of his. And if you have an NHL bottom feeder, especially a young one with zero men's NT experience and a more seasoned player who clocks big minutes in the KHL, does the former truly trump the latter? Especially when the games will be in Europe and on big ice.

So yeah. Even if both kids stay up, I still wouldn't really be surprised that Erkka only takes one and not the other, unless they both somehow pull a Brodin and become key players in their squad. And currently RR looks better for it, because he truly has a chance to rob himself a considerable spot in Buffalo - and even if he doesn't, Teppo's there to keep a close eye on him and will no doubt relay all he sees to Erkka.

Määttä is a key name in the future and even if he might be a better individual already, at this moment his CV isn't holding up to that of someone like Lepistö. And one fall season may not be enough time to add up to it.
While it is true that the best individuals may not always make the best possible team, I don't think it is that big of an issue with defense. Of course you can have a defenseman who absolutely requires a partner of certain sort to be successful, but for example neither Määttä or Ristolainen have been shown to have this issue. They would need solid partners due to inexperience, but so would Lepistö because he's not that good, and that 'solid' partner should not be Hietanen.

As for it being difficult to have both of them, I would not feel much more comfortable with defensive pairings consisting of a choice of Kukkonen, Nummelin, Karalahti or most of our KHL defensemen. We are going to have players in the backend who require support or sheltering whether the two boys make it or not, so my logic is that if they are better than the alternatives, they should be on the team regardless.

Even if we only have one of them (most likely Ristolainen), we should still break up Salo and Timonen. RR could either play with Väänänen, bumping Vatanen to the top 4 or with Timonen/Salo. Having Lydman back would make things easier, allowing a top 6 of:

Timonen-Salo
Lydman-Vatanen
Väänänen-Ristolainen

You could also flip Vatanen and RR.

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10-03-2013, 08:22 AM
  #521
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While it is true that the best individuals may not always make the best possible team, I don't think it is that big of an issue with defense. Of course you can have a defenseman who absolutely requires a partner of certain sort to be successful, but for example neither Määttä or Ristolainen have been shown to have this issue. They would need solid partners due to inexperience, but so would Lepistö because he's not that good, and that 'solid' partner should not be Hietanen.
Personally I agree with this. If Ristolainen and Määttä are ready to take on the NHL without extra sheltering, they should be ready to take on olympic hockey as well.

My musings were more about what Erkka might think. Like I said, Määttä might be one of the best individuals we have, but his showings still don't hold against those against a KHL guy who's got several major international tournaments on his belt.


Another thing that would not surprise me is if Kukkonen makes it ahead of Järvinen or Melart. He is, after all, playing currently very well in Kärpät and has been a staple in multiple WHC tournaments, even captaining the team.

Of course, good showings in Lüga or in WHC does not mean he'd still be any more ready to face best-on-best action as he was the last time around, where most of the dislike against him stems. But then again, I think he was also grossly mishandled in Vancouver. Thanks to some Timo Lehkonen brainfart, he was given 2nd pairing minutes next to Pitkänen, backing up an unit that was almost solely responsible for generating some offense. He simply wasn't cut out for it.

In the WHCs since he's been a bottom pair guy with manageable minutes, with the unit around him mostly defense-oriented. And let's face it, while he's not been dazzling anyone, he's been reliable enough. I could totally see Erkka going for a player like that.

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10-05-2013, 04:13 AM
  #522
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Mikael Granlund - Mikko Koivu - Tuomo Ruutu
Jussi Jokinen - Saku Koivu - Teemu Selänne
Valtteri Filppula - Olli Jokinen - Lauri Korpikoski
Jesse Joensuu - Aleksander Barkov - Leo Komarov

Kimmo Timonen - Sami Salo
Ossi Väänänen - Sami Vatanen
Olli Määttä - Rasmus Ristolainen
Joonas Järvinen - Teemu Laakso

Kari Lehtonen
Tuukka Rask
Pekka Rinne

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10-05-2013, 04:56 AM
  #523
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Congrats on two emerging young NHL-players in Barkov and Ristolainen! Your forwards below look real good and so does Olli Jokinen, a player some posters seem to have counted out off your plans. As always, I'll be cheering for Finland when they play another country than Sweden.

Battle of Bottnia!: Compare! (or change)

Mikael Granlund - Mikko Koivu - Tuomo Ruutu
Jussi Jokinen - Saku Koivu - Teemu Selänne
Valtteri Filppula - Olli Jokinen - Lauri Korpikoski
Jesse Joensuu - Aleksander Barkov - Leo Komarov
Jori Lehterä - Petri Kontiola

Kimmo Timonen - Sami Salo
Ossi Väänänen - Sami Vatanen
Olli Määttä - Rasmus Ristolainen
Juuso Hietanen - Anssi Salmela

Kari Lehtonen
Tuukka Rask
Pekka Rinne



vs


Henrik Zetterberg - Nicklas Bäckström - Marcus Johansson
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Loui Eriksson
Alexander Steen - Patrik Berglund - Daniel Alfredsson
Jakob Silfverberg - Mikael Backlund - Gabriel Landeskog
Johan Franzén - Patric Hörnqvist

Oliver Ekman-Larsson - Erik Karlsson
Niklas Hjalmarsson - Victor Hedman
Alexander Edler - Tobias Enström
Niklas Kronwall - Jonathan Ericsson

Henrik Lundqvist
Jhonas Enroth
Robin Lehner


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10-05-2013, 06:06 AM
  #524
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Your forwards below look real good and so does Olli Jokinen, a player some posters seem to have counted out off your plans.
I don't think anybody has counted off Jokinen. He's simply been completely off the radar for the past few seasons whereas some of our KHL stars have been dazzling, and have thus become equally if not more viable candidates for the same spot.

Jokinen seems to be off to a decent start for change, and if he keeps it up, he'll definitely climb back into contention again. But seriously, it doesn't mean he's being completely ignored if some us simply think that the likes of Kontiola and Lehterä have been putting up a more convincing display. Can't fit 'em all in there, after all.

That being said, Needles' lineup does look pretty damn nice. After a few dry seasons, Finland is breaking back into the collective consciousness of the NHL.

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10-05-2013, 06:19 AM
  #525
jfc64
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Compare player by player!

Mikael Granlund - Henrik Zetterberg
Mikko Koivu - Nicklas Bäckström
Tuomo Ruutu - Marcus Johansson
Jussi Jokinen - Daniel Sedin
Saku Koivu - Henrik Sedin
Teemu Selänne - Loui Eriksson
Valtteri Filppula - Alexander Steen
Olli Jokinen - Patrik Berglund
Lauri Korpikoski - Daniel Alfredsson
Jesse Joensuu - Jakob Silfverberg
Aleksander Barkov - Mikael Backlund
Leo Komarov - Gabriel Landeskog
Jori Lehterä - Johan Franzén
Petri Kontiola - Patric Hörnqvist

Kimmo Timonen - Oliver Ekman-Larsson
Sami Salo - Erik Karlsson
Ossi Väänänen - Niklas Hjalmarsson
Sami Vatanen - Victor Hedman
Olli Määttä - Alexander Edler
Rasmus Ristolainen - Tobias Enström
Anssi Salmela - Niklas Kronwall
Juuso Hietanen - Jonathan Ericsson

Kari Lehtonen - Henrik Lundqvist
Tuukka Rask - Jhonas Enroth
Pekka Rinne - Robin Lehner

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