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Old
10-02-2013, 12:41 PM
  #401
3rdlineglory
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Can someone please help me understand why Girardi is practincing on the second power play unit and McDonagh is not on any?

I gave AV the benefit of the doubt in pre-season, but unless Girardi magically changes, he better be off any pp unit within the first month...

He and Del Zotto on the points for the 2nd unit.

I can see it now. Shot wide, around the boards and out. Rinse and repeat from either side.
What other defensemen are being used?

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10-02-2013, 12:43 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
ehhhhhhh. They should both get lots of PP time. DZ is a better passer but Moore has a much better shot. I do not agree with Girardi on the PP at all, his shot is good and low but it's SO easy to deflect that it's not even effective. Stralman should be getting all of Girardi's PP time.
Stralman's shot isn't as hard as Girardi's. I can see why Girardi would be a better option as a trigger man.

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10-02-2013, 12:44 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by 3rdlineglory View Post
Stralman's shot isn't as hard as Girardi's. I can see why Girardi would be a better option as a trigger man.
but the way Stralman walks the line, passes, and his shot accuracy make me prefer him over Girardi. It's not like his shot hits the net often anyway.

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10-02-2013, 12:45 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
And you havent let the fact we dont have anywhere near that type of depth now effect your thinking in the least. A 3rd line centered by Miller and having Fast on the RW is just as likely to create some offense as it is to fall on its face completely. I dont think you'll find many coaches at all, especially ones that want to keep their jobs, willing to take that risk night in and night out.
My focus is on dressing a lineup that can compete for a cup. If Miller, Cally, and Pyatt/Fast cannot produce offensively then we are not a contender. I would rather roll the dice with that group and have a 3rd line that has the skill to score than put Boyle there knowing that the line is destined for offensive ineptness. Boyle should be on the 4th line with Moore and Dorsett/Asham. Then we have a 4th line that is near the top of the league. IMHO we need to trust our young guys who have skill, and in Miller's case, grit to man our third line so the scoring threat exists for our top 9; not just top 6. And let's be honest our top 6 is not going to fill the net as often as a contender's top 6 should.

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10-02-2013, 12:48 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yes, Miller, with his 4 points in 26 games last year, is clearly ready to take on the offensive load that you demand.
You can see the potential is there. Or at least you should be able to see that. You're right though, the offensive numbers of a rookie in a shortened season in a defensive system is a stat that carries a ton of weight. He will probably never score again.

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10-02-2013, 12:49 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
but the way Stralman walks the line, passes, and his shot accuracy make me prefer him over Girardi. It's not like his shot hits the net often anyway.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel Girardi's shots have been more accurate lately, but I agree with your assessment about Stralman. Hopefully he gets some PP time too. In general I hope our pointmen become a platoon. A lot of solid options.

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10-02-2013, 12:50 PM
  #407
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My 3rd line would be:

Boyle - Miller - Fast

Boyle doesn't have the vision or passing ability needed to be a center.

He can still take the D zone face offs, but he should be skating up and down the wing and parking that big frame in front of the net. While I have my issues with Boyle the player, he does create a bit of chaos in front and he DOES have the hands to cash in on the garbage goals.

I have no faith whatsoever in his ability to get his line-mates involved in the game.

I think he happens to be our WORST center in that regards.

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10-02-2013, 12:51 PM
  #408
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Miller owns

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10-02-2013, 12:53 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Madness? What madness?

AV wants to utilize his third-line as a defensive, checking line. That's where Boyle belongs. The third and fourth line aren't going to see a dramatic difference with TOI. If it helps you sleep at night, just consider one line to be 3A, and 3B.
The madness is the implication that Brian Boyle has any offensive skill. If AV is willing to accept that his third line does not score; if that is his expectation, then fine. But let's not pretend that a line centered by Boyle will score on any kind of consistent basis. And the reason it won't is because Brian Boyle is devoid of puck skills. Here's the problem, those two lines are 4A and 4B.

And that setup especially with the top 6 that we have will mean this team will not produce enough goals to win and could miss the playoffs even with the studs we have on D and Hank.

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10-02-2013, 12:57 PM
  #410
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Miller-Moore-Fast the third line

Pyatt-Boyle-Dorsett the fourth line.

Sounds fine to me (for now at least).

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Old
10-02-2013, 12:57 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
The madness is the implication that Brian Boyle has any offensive skill. If AV is willing to accept that his third line does not score; if that is his expectation, then fine. But let's not pretend that a line centered by Boyle will score on any kind of consistent basis. And the reason it won't is because Brian Boyle is devoid of puck skills. Here's the problem, those two lines are 4A and 4B.

And that setup especially with the top 6 that we have will mean this team will not produce enough goals to win and could miss the playoffs even with the studs we have on D and Hank.
You are beginning to scratch the surface regarding the real problems with this team in this post, especially in the 2nd paragraph.

But it still amazes me just how much time and effort you place on the idea that Brian Boyle moving from the 3rd to 4th line is some sort of silver bullet.

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10-02-2013, 01:00 PM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
My focus is on dressing a lineup that can compete for a cup. If Miller, Cally, and Pyatt/Fast cannot produce offensively then we are not a contender. I would rather roll the dice with that group and have a 3rd line that has the skill to score than put Boyle there knowing that the line is destined for offensive ineptness. Boyle should be on the 4th line with Moore and Dorsett/Asham. Then we have a 4th line that is near the top of the league. IMHO we need to trust our young guys who have skill, and in Miller's case, grit to man our third line so the scoring threat exists for our top 9; not just top 6. And let's be honest our top 6 is not going to fill the net as often as a contender's top 6 should.
I'm thinking the same thing here.

If we are still going to be relying on the top two lines to carry the offensive load while we have a "defensive" 3rd line and a 4th line that provides much of nothing, then we are going to be in for a very disappointing season.

The third line HAS to be a threat to score.

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10-02-2013, 01:05 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I'm thinking the same thing here.

If we are still going to be relying on the top two lines to carry the offensive load while we have a "defensive" 3rd line and a 4th line that provides much of nothing, then we are going to be in for a very disappointing season.

The third line HAS to be a threat to score.
And where are you going to find these offensive 3rd liners? Pull them out of your ass? Preventing goals is part of the game too.

And, right now, Boyle has a better chance of preventing goals than Miller has of scoring them.

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10-02-2013, 01:09 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You are beginning to scratch the surface regarding the real problems with this team in this post, especially in the 2nd paragraph.

But it still amazes me just how much time and effort you place on the idea that Brian Boyle moving from the 3rd to 4th line is some sort of silver bullet.
It's not a silver bullet, but it seems like an obvious decision if we are trying to build a contender. Brian Boyle on the 3rd line to me is akin to having Justin Falk on your second D pairing. It is not a recipe for success. And since our coaches don't seem to see that it that way, it gets alot of discussion; and I am not the only one who carries that opinion.

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10-02-2013, 01:10 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I'm thinking the same thing here.

If we are still going to be relying on the top two lines to carry the offensive load while we have a "defensive" 3rd line and a 4th line that provides much of nothing, then we are going to be in for a very disappointing season.

The third line HAS to be a threat to score.
Agreed.

It would be nice if someone like Fast emerges as a solid point producer. That could shift a guy like Richards down to the 3rd, where he belongs (on a good team).

But we are top heavy on RW. It would be nice to get a solid LW in to balance the lines skill-wise and provide us a true top #1 line. As of now almost anyone can slide up and down on the left side.

As a side note - this team should be cheating on every single faceoff with the glut of centers they have in the lineup. They should be in the top half of the league in faceoffs as the year goes on, or they are not taking advantage of their lineup.

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10-02-2013, 01:11 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
And where are you going to find these offensive 3rd liners? Pull them out of your ass? Preventing goals is part of the game too.

And, right now, Boyle has a better chance of preventing goals than Miller has of scoring them.
speaking of pulling stuff out of your ass. Not sure how you could evidence this "fact" as stated.

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10-02-2013, 01:11 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
ehhhhhhh. They should both get lots of PP time. DZ is a better passer but Moore has a much better shot. I do not agree with Girardi on the PP at all, his shot is good and low but it's SO easy to deflect that it's not even effective. Stralman should be getting all of Girardi's PP time.
I agree, MDZ should be on the PP. But i still think Moore should be getting a look ahead of MDZ and certainly, Girardi.

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10-02-2013, 01:11 PM
  #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
You can see the potential is there. Or at least you should be able to see that. You're right though, the offensive numbers of a rookie in a shortened season in a defensive system is a stat that carries a ton of weight. He will probably never score again.
So, Miller gets a pass but Boyle doesn't? Was he playing in a different system? Weird...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
My focus is on dressing a lineup that can compete for a cup. If Miller, Cally, and Pyatt/Fast cannot produce offensively then we are not a contender. I would rather roll the dice with that group and have a 3rd line that has the skill to score than put Boyle there knowing that the line is destined for offensive ineptness. Boyle should be on the 4th line with Moore and Dorsett/Asham. Then we have a 4th line that is near the top of the league. IMHO we need to trust our young guys who have skill, and in Miller's case, grit to man our third line so the scoring threat exists for our top 9; not just top 6. And let's be honest our top 6 is not going to fill the net as often as a contender's top 6 should.
There is more to playing the game than putting up points. Who cares if your "black and white" breakdown of points shows:

1st line:
90 goals

2nd line:
60 goals

3rd line:
30 goals

4th line:
10 goals

and your team scores as follows:

1st line:
90 goals

2nd line:
60 goals

3rd line:
20 goals

4th line:
20 goals

Is there some HUGE difference there? As long as those lines can outscore the opposition who cares?

Note:
These numbers do not show any sort of breakdown that is realistic for any team, just proving a general point.

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10-02-2013, 01:12 PM
  #419
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[QUOTE=HockeyBasedNYC;71865603]Agreed.

It would be nice if someone like Fast emerges as a solid point producer. That could shift a guy like Richards down to the 3rd, where he belongs (on a good team).

But we are top heavy on RW. It would be nice to get a solid LW in to balance the lines skill-wise and provide us a true top #1 line. As of now almost anyone can slide up and down on the left side.

As a side note - this team should be cheating on every single faceoff with the glut of centers they have in the lineup. They should be in the top half of the league in faceoffs as the year goes on, or they are not taking advantage of their lineup.[/QUOTE]

That is a great point.

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10-02-2013, 01:13 PM
  #420
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Boyle and Pyatt on 3rd line. Fast with them?

Miller on 4th line?

Richards still with Nash?

Alain's lines are as headscratching as John's.

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10-02-2013, 01:14 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
speaking of pulling stuff out of your ass. Not sure how you could evidence this "fact" as stated.
If we cant move past the fact that Boyle is a better defensive player than Miller at this stage in their careers, I don't know what to tell you.

I guess the discussion will be stuck in neutral, where you've kept it thanks to your archaic viewpoint of Boyle and what he brings to the table.

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10-02-2013, 01:16 PM
  #422
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[QUOTE=NYR Viper;71865645]So, Miller gets a pass but Boyle doesn't? Was he playing in a different system? Weird...

Why wouldn't Miller get a pass. He's a rookie, who played a little over 20 games last year. Is a geezer at 20 and basically has no track record...

While Boyle we've seen play nearly every game for the past 4 years....

They are at such opposite odds of the spectrum. At this poitn in his career, Boyle should be held much more accountable for his play on the ice then Miller.

Compare Miller to Kreider if you want.

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10-02-2013, 01:16 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
So, Miller gets a pass but Boyle doesn't? Was he playing in a different system? Weird...



There is more to playing the game than putting up points. Who cares if your "black and white" breakdown of points shows:

1st line:
90 goals

2nd line:
60 goals

3rd line:
30 goals

4th line:
10 goals

and your team scores as follows:

1st line:
90 goals

2nd line:
60 goals

3rd line:
20 goals

4th line:
20 goals

Is there some HUGE difference there? As long as those lines can outscore the opposition who cares?

Note:
These numbers do not show any sort of breakdown that is realistic for any team, just proving a general point.
I agree there would be no difference. But, we will likely be somewhat starved for goals and so we cannot in my opinion go with a 3rd line where the expectation is that they won't score that often. Without a bona fide top 6 you need depth scoring and the lineup as AV has been practicing will likely not produce that depth scoring. That means Hank has to once again be godlike for us to contend. I'd like to move beyond that premise.

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10-02-2013, 01:17 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Boyle and Pyatt on 3rd line. Fast with them?

Miller on 4th line?

Richards still with Nash?

Alain's lines are as headscratching as John's.
Just like John's however, they won't last more than two games

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10-02-2013, 01:18 PM
  #425
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When Callahan and Hagelin are back, we're probably going to see the lines change. We're not married to these lines. We've debated lines for years and years and years, and something we know is nothing last forever.

If Boyle starts the year on the third line wing, with two of our top-6 forwards out, odds are players are going to flip-flop throughout the lineup when they return.

There's too much emphasis on what the lines are to start the year. We've watched more of our current team than AV has. We have a better idea of their skillset and their overall play. You guys need to relax and just see how things play out. I guarantee things change, and change quite often. Especially in the beginning.

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