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10-02-2013, 12:19 PM
  #426
azaloum90
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
better yet, swap Dorsett and Fast and make Moore's line #3. They can be a checking line with plenty of skill, and the 4th line can hopefully replicate how well they played in the PO's last year.
I like that COmbo alot actually

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10-02-2013, 12:20 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If we cant move past the fact that Boyle is a better defensive player than Miller at this stage in their careers, I don't know what to tell you.

I guess the discussion will be stuck in neutral, where you've kept it thanks to your archaic viewpoint of Boyle and what he brings to the table.
That's not what you said. You said Boyle was better defensively (keeping more pucks out of the net) than Miller will be offensively (putting pucks in the net). And although that may be true; not sure how one goes about proving or even explaining that.

Boyle cannot play in the offensive zone; not an archaic viewpoint. He has value but not when we are trying to score. We can stop now; no problem.

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10-02-2013, 12:24 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post

Pouliot - Stepan - Nash
Miller - Brassard - Zuccs
Pyatt - Richards - Fast
Boyle - Moore - Dorsett
Asham

I like that lineup.

1st line is big with skill and if Pouliot can finish that could be a dangerous line. (Not to mention if Nash can actually be Nash, but we'll wait and see)

2nd line has really good creativity and tenaciousness. I'm really high on Brassard. I think he's really taking another step but finishing is an issue on that line. If the Rangers added a sniper on LW somewhere, like this line - that gives this team a pretty competitive top 6, because Zucc hasnt proven he can bury goals with any consistency. Thats a legit concern.

3rd line is meh. (Man, do I cringe when i see Pyatts name) Replace the wingers with Cally and Hags and now you have a deep team. Im hoping Fast makes it very difficult on the coaching staff to send him down though, once those two return.

4th line is very solid. You don't need to mess with anything there. Two centers, size, some toughness and the ability to pop some goals in.

Jesus, if Richards ever got his act together ....and the Rangers can stay healthy - this isn't a bad team.

There are holes though. I expect them to get off to a rough start. I think we all do. But regardless of how the system works I really want to see this team play like a team... like 2 years ago. I want to see that fire and cockiness. I think that will be difficult to do though with the lack of toughness on the team. I don't put as much stock into that as some fans do, but it will be a factor at points during the season.

The positive thing with this team is the defense. Despite running around in their own zone the entire preseason, i think the top 6 as a group are among the strongest and most versatile in the league, so we really cant complain there.

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10-02-2013, 12:26 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
That's not what you said. You said Boyle was better defensively (keeping more pucks out of the net) than Miller will be offensively (putting pucks in the net).
That's not what he said. He said that right now, Boyle has a better chance of preventing goals than Miller has of scoring them. Right now. Not will be. But right now.

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10-02-2013, 12:27 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
I agree there would be no difference. But, we will likely be somewhat starved for goals and so we cannot in my opinion go with a 3rd line where the expectation is that they won't score that often. Without a bona fide top 6 you need depth scoring and the lineup as AV has been practicing will likely not produce that depth scoring. That means Hank has to once again be godlike for us to contend. I'd like to move beyond that premise.
But what does it matter if your 4th line scores 10-15 more goals than most teams 4th lines? Dorsett and Moore should easily score 10-15 goals a piece. Thats HUGE production from a 4th line.

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10-02-2013, 12:28 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Boyle and Pyatt on 3rd line. Fast with them?

Miller on 4th line?

Richards still with Nash?

Alain's lines are as headscratching as John's.
I'd cut him some slack because he doesn't know the team THAT well. Also injuries.
Once he sees Boyle's lack of center skills, he will move him I beleive. Unlike angry John.

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10-02-2013, 12:30 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
I'd cut him some slack because he doesn't know the team THAT well. Also injuries.
Once he sees Boyle's lack of center skills, he will move him I beleive. Unlike angry John.
Boyle is fine at center, IF he plays with a wing who likes to control the puck. Prust liked to do that. Zuccarello liked to do that. Hagelin liked to do that. Boyle has success with wingers like that. No surprise, considering he doesn't like to distribute the puck. I think he and Fast are a good combination.

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10-02-2013, 12:36 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
But what does it matter if your 4th line scores 10-15 more goals than most teams 4th lines? Dorsett and Moore should easily score 10-15 goals a piece. Thats HUGE production from a 4th line.
I wouldn't say easily for either. Moore hasn't played in a year and has only topped 10 goals twice in his career, and Dorsett has scored over 10 goals once in his career. 5 from either would be welcomed. And 10-15 goals more than the average 4th line is a pretty huge contribution.

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10-02-2013, 12:39 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
But what does it matter if your 4th line scores 10-15 more goals than most teams 4th lines? Dorsett and Moore should easily score 10-15 goals a piece. Thats HUGE production from a 4th line.
You are SERIOUSLY overrating both Moore and Dorsett. They are both ideal guys to have on your fourth line, but i'd be happy if one of them cracks ten goals, let alone two.

If they play a full season and do it healthy, I'd expect 8 goals from each of them on 4th line minutes.

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10-02-2013, 12:46 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by htk30 View Post
I wouldn't say easily for either. Moore hasn't played in a year and has only topped 10 goals twice in his career, and Dorsett has scored over 10 goals once in his career. 5 from either would be welcomed. And 10-15 goals more than the average 4th line is a pretty huge contribution.
Moore has done it 3x in his career. It is difficult to keep track of his stats considering he was traded so often.

Dorsett scored 12 goals 2 years ago and was on pace for ~10 goals last year over 82 games.

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10-02-2013, 12:50 PM
  #436
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When Dominic Moore scored 18 goals for Tampa a few seasons back, he was getting almost 13 minutes per game at even strength, one minute each night on the PP and two minutes SH. That was also true for the two previous years when he scored 10 and 13 goals apiece.

If he's truly playing a fourth line role for us, he'll basically get half that TOI. There's no way he scores 10-15 goals earning regular fourth line minutes.

Dorsett averaged about 14:30 per game during his 12-goal campaign, and even received :50 a night on the PP. Again, it's very unlikely that he'll see those minutes this season. For his career he scores .096 goals per game, which is just about eight goals per 82 games.

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Old
10-02-2013, 12:53 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Moore has done it 3x in his career. It is difficult to keep track of his stats considering he was traded so often.

Dorsett scored 12 goals 2 years ago and was on pace for ~10 goals last year over 82 games.
It's not difficult to keep track of. To pencil two guys in, who are not what you can call, consistent, 10+ goal scorers, to put up 10-15, while getting, what at this point we can assume, will be about 6-9 minutes a night, is asinine.

One guy was hurt most of last year and the other didn't even play.

You're projecting nearly career highs for each of them. This is the reason players get overrated and then we complain about their performance.

Again, if Moore and Dorsett put up 8 goals each, playing on the 4th line. We are in good position.

15 goals for each is a dream. It's more likely Nash puts u 50.

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10-02-2013, 12:54 PM
  #438
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What AV will use:

Richards-Stepan-Nash
Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello
Pyatt-Boyle-Fast
Miller-Moore-Dorsett/Asham

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Del Zotto
Moore-Stralman

------------------
How about this for later:

Hagelin - Stepan - Nash
Pouliot - Brassard - Zuccarello
Miller/Fast - Richards - Callahan
Pyatt/Boyle - Moore - Dorsett/Asham

Can Fast switch to the left?

lines 2 and 3 could be a little dysfunctional but i thought the PBZ line was the best in preseason so we'll leave them alone and see how they do. I dont like Zucc and Richards. Im thinking a rookie on the 3rd line with Cally and Richards would add life into that line. Much rather that then Pyatt. I keep Boyle and Dorsett on the 4th, but there are options there.

If Richards decides to have a renaissance they are solid down the middle. Miller and Fast prove it on a nightly basis or they sit or go down. If Kreider ever decides to join us, slot him into that same spot. Any of the top 9 can slide up and down in those spots. Those listed on the 4th line should stay there.

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10-02-2013, 12:56 PM
  #439
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anyway you slice those bottom 2 lines we basically have 2 4th lines until cally and hagelin get back

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10-02-2013, 12:58 PM
  #440
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Can Fast switch to the left?
Fast can play either wing effectively.

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10-02-2013, 01:05 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
It's not difficult to keep track of. To pencil two guys in, who are not what you can call, consistent, 10+ goal scorers, to put up 10-15, while getting, what at this point we can assume, will be about 6-9 minutes a night, is asinine.

One guy was hurt most of last year and the other didn't even play.

You're projecting nearly career highs for each of them. This is the reason players get overrated and then we complain about their performance.

Again, if Moore and Dorsett put up 8 goals each, playing on the 4th line. We are in good position.

15 goals for each is a dream. It's more likely Nash puts u 50.
Not even the point that I was trying to make originally. Who cares if Boyle scores less than what people perceive to be a good 3rd liner if the 4th line is scoring more than the average 4th line? Does it not balance out?

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10-02-2013, 01:10 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Not even the point that I was trying to make originally. Who cares if Boyle scores less than what people perceive to be a good 3rd liner if the 4th line is scoring more than the average 4th line? Does it not balance out?
I think Boyle should be on the 4th line wing. But we've discussed this to death and I don't want to harp on it. I don't think you win stanley cups with players like Boyle leading your third line.

You win cups with players like boyle on your fourth line.

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10-02-2013, 01:15 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
That's not what he said. He said that right now, Boyle has a better chance of preventing goals than Miller has of scoring them. Right now. Not will be. But right now.
fine, typo. Doesn't change the fact that this assertion is almost impossible to quantify and he states it as a fact.

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10-02-2013, 01:17 PM
  #444
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
But what does it matter if your 4th line scores 10-15 more goals than most teams 4th lines? Dorsett and Moore should easily score 10-15 goals a piece. Thats HUGE production from a 4th line.
that would be great. However, for them to score at that clip they will need 3rd line minutes not 4th line minutes and that doesn't appear to be the plan.

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10-02-2013, 01:19 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Boyle is fine at center, IF he plays with a wing who likes to control the puck. Prust liked to do that. Zuccarello liked to do that. Hagelin liked to do that. Boyle has success with wingers like that. No surprise, considering he doesn't like to distribute the puck. I think he and Fast are a good combination.
I like to control the puck; that doesn't mean I can and Prust is a bad example. He was/is not good with the puck on his stick unless your comparing him to other 4th liners/fighters.

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10-02-2013, 01:22 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
It's not difficult to keep track of. To pencil two guys in, who are not what you can call, consistent, 10+ goal scorers, to put up 10-15, while getting, what at this point we can assume, will be about 6-9 minutes a night, is asinine.

One guy was hurt most of last year and the other didn't even play.

You're projecting nearly career highs for each of them. This is the reason players get overrated and then we complain about their performance.

Again, if Moore and Dorsett put up 8 goals each, playing on the 4th line. We are in good position.

15 goals for each is a dream. It's more likely Nash puts u 50.
Which is why we need our 3rd line to produce goals and as currently constituted it probably will not; even when Hags and Cally come back and guys slide down.

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10-02-2013, 01:24 PM
  #447
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
fine, typo. Doesn't change the fact that this assertion is almost impossible to quantify and he states it as a fact.
Boyle has already established himself as a very good defensive forward, J.T. has shown potential, but hasn't established anything at the NHL level.

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10-02-2013, 01:25 PM
  #448
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Not even the point that I was trying to make originally. Who cares if Boyle scores less than what people perceive to be a good 3rd liner if the 4th line is scoring more than the average 4th line? Does it not balance out?
Any line he centers will not score. We cannot afford to have two 4th lines. hence he needs to be on the 4th line so we can build a 3rd line that has scoring potential. It will not balance out. Our 4th line although good likely won't be prolific.

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10-02-2013, 01:26 PM
  #449
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I like to control the puck; that doesn't mean I can and Prust is a bad example. He was/is not good with the puck on his stick unless your comparing him to other 4th liners/fighters.
Congratulations?

Prust actually handles the puck well, especially down low and in the corners. He isn't the most skilled but he usually wins pucks.

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10-02-2013, 01:27 PM
  #450
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
fine, typo. Doesn't change the fact that this assertion is almost impossible to quantify and he states it as a fact.
The typo, Measure by Measure, makes a pretty big difference. Maybe it's Much Ado About Nothing to you. I know that things would be a whole lot easier if everyone saw things As You Like It. Unfortunately, there are different opinions ‚ even if you see them as A Comedy of Errors.

I think we can all agree that hopefully All's Well That Ends Well and that a Cup win isn't just The Winter's Tale or A Midsummer's Night Dream. If they don't win the Cup, it's time for Sather to get it in the Coriolanus.

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