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Old
10-02-2013, 01:51 PM
  #476
silverfish
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Boyle hater #1 checking in:

When I think Brian Boyle, I think excellent depth. I think fourth-line banger who can sway a playoff series with his play. Kind of like Nolan and King did for Los Angeles their cup year; those dudes were an absolute force in the limited minutes they played.

When it comes to Boyle I think 5 points in 38 games, and a -13 for a guy who should be better defensively.

I think penalty killer. I think guy who can fill in on the third-line pending linemates.

What I don't think is power play player. I don't think guy on the ice in the last two minutes of the game player.

Boyle, if used correctly, is an asset to have. I hope when Callahan and Hagelin are healthy, that Boyle finds himself on the fourth line wing full-time, never seeing power play minutes, and not touching the ice in a game the Rangers are down a goal with 2 minutes to go.

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Old
10-02-2013, 01:52 PM
  #477
McRanger
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I think this motivation stuff is utter nonsense. You don't get to this level without an enormous sense of motivation. People love to overlook the obvious.

He has not performed well enough to secure an NHL job. It is not motivation. It is not the fault of Torts. It has nothing to do with where Mars is in the sky.
Players flame out all the time because they are unwilling to do the work or put in the effort needed to play up to their potential.

In fact it is so commonly seen, in pretty much every aspect of every sport, that I have no idea how anyone could possibly come to any other conclusion.

When Kreider skates and is involved he has always been, at every level, successful. When he floats around and is a passenger he has had significantly less success.

Its not a particularly complicated equation.

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Old
10-02-2013, 01:52 PM
  #478
Wolfpack21
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Nash-Stepan-Hagelin
Zucc-Brassard-Pouliot
Miller/Fast-Richards-Callahan
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett
Ex: Pyatt, Asham, Fast/Miller

Would they ever consider putting Richards in AHL or keeping him a healthy scratch so he doesn't get injured?
Third line of Fast-Miller-Callahan?

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Old
10-02-2013, 01:53 PM
  #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
If I was to make an argument for an offensive minded third line, it would be this...

Our top two lines don't have the proven talent and scoring of other top teams in the league. Stepan, Nash, Richards, Brassard, Callahan, and Zuccarello/Hagelin are our top 6 forwards. That's not in the realm of Kane, Toews, Hossa, Saad, Sharp, Bickell, or Marchand, Kreijci, Lucic, Bergeron, Seguin, Horton (I actually think that is debatable, depending on how Richards and Zuccarello play)

So if you're looking for an argument, it's that two lines can't comprise the whole of a sufficient offense.
Honestly I like the Rangers top six in some ways, but that's relying on Stepan and Brassard to continue playing like they did last year and Richards to bounce back a bit.

Those guys, including Zucarello, have skill...I think the coaches need to get the most out of them. IF Stepan can be a 70 point player...IF Nash can repeat the year he was on pace for last season or better it a bit (nearly a point per game), IF Brassard keeps playing like a motivated and creative playmaking center who can finish, IF Richards can just have a decent season and be effective on the power play, and IF Zucarello can keep playing the way he did last season, that top six ain't bad

Lots of IF's though. Guys have the ability, but they gotta do it over a season.

I do agree you need some better depth to help out, though. Realistically I wouldn't mind bumping Richards down to 3C, putting Callahan and someone like Miller on his wings, and run a fourth line consisting of Boyle, Moore, and Pyatt or whatever. e: forgot Dorsett, I like him. But the real kicker will be the power play performance, since running a decent to good power play can make a huge difference in how good your overall offense is


Last edited by Levitate: 10-02-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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Old
10-02-2013, 01:53 PM
  #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpack21 View Post
Nash-Stepan-Hagelin
Zucc-Brassard-Pouliot
Miller/Fast-Richards-Callahan
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett
Ex: Pyatt, Asham, Fast/Miller

Would they ever consider putting Richards in AHL or keeping him a healthy scratch so he doesn't get injured?
Third line of Fast-Miller-Callahan?
What has Pouliot done to warrant a spot over Callahan?

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10-02-2013, 01:55 PM
  #481
Wolfpack21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
What has Pouliot done to warrant a spot over Callahan?
Nothing. Just Zuc and Brassard are creative and maybe Pouliot can be this finisher? Like a chemistry sort of thing.

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10-02-2013, 01:55 PM
  #482
Riche16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
If I was to make an argument for an offensive minded third line, it would be this...

Our top two lines don't have the proven talent and scoring of other top teams in the league. Stepan, Nash, Richards, Brassard, Callahan, and Zuccarello/Hagelin are our top 6 forwards. That's not in the realm of Kane, Toews, Hossa, Saad, Sharp, Bickell, or Marchand, Kreijci, Lucic, Bergeron, Seguin, Horton (I actually think that is debatable, depending on how Richards and Zuccarello play)

So if you're looking for an argument, it's that two lines can't comprise the whole of a sufficient offense.

In my mind, it's a lot simpler than that. I think the only reason this team didn't generate enough offense last year is because the power play was poor. You get our PP to average, we have an average offense.
This is really the issue. We have a suspect offense, at BEST... and a horrid PP.

If both remain that way, we will go no-f-in-where

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Old
10-02-2013, 01:56 PM
  #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
The funny thing is that I don't disagree with wanting to have a more offensive 3rd line. However, there has to be some sort of balance. Boyle on the 3rd line doesn't bother me IF he plays with players like Fast and Hagelin/Miller/Callahan/MZA. Having a defensively responsible player on that line is a good thing.
What about trying Moore as the third line center? He's faster than Boyle, smart defensively, and has better offensive skills IMO

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10-02-2013, 01:56 PM
  #484
Fitzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
What has Pouliot done to warrant a spot over Callahan?
Presumably that's a line chemistry deal with how Brass, Zucc, and Pouliot worked well in preseason.

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Old
10-02-2013, 01:58 PM
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
What about trying Moore as the third line center? He's faster than Boyle, smart defensively, and has better offensive skills IMO
Very possible as well. for all we know, the Miller-Moore-Dorsett line may be used as the 3rd line.

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10-02-2013, 01:59 PM
  #486
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When Cally and Hags return...

Line 1: Hagelin - Stepan - Nash
Line 2a: Pouliot - Brassard - Zuccarello
Line 2b: Richards - Miller - Callahan
Line 4: Fast - Moore - Dorsett

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Old
10-02-2013, 02:00 PM
  #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
What has Pouliot done to warrant a spot over Callahan?
AV is trying to build a team, not be a grade school teacher giving out awards for playing well. Pouliot has shown good chemistry with Brass and Zucc. Callahan being a better player to this point in their respective careers has nothing to do with it.

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10-02-2013, 02:02 PM
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Boyle hater #1 checking in:

When I think Brian Boyle, I think excellent depth. I think fourth-line banger who can sway a playoff series with his play. Kind of like Nolan and King did for Los Angeles their cup year; those dudes were an absolute force in the limited minutes they played.

When it comes to Boyle I think 5 points in 38 games, and a -13 for a guy who should be better defensively.

I think penalty killer. I think guy who can fill in on the third-line pending linemates.

What I don't think is power play player. I don't think guy on the ice in the last two minutes of the game player.

Boyle, if used correctly, is an asset to have. I hope when Callahan and Hagelin are healthy, that Boyle finds himself on the fourth line wing full-time, never seeing power play minutes, and not touching the ice in a game the Rangers are down a goal with 2 minutes to go.
Exactly.

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Old
10-02-2013, 02:03 PM
  #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
AV is trying to build a team, not be a grade school teacher giving out awards for playing well. Pouliot has shown good chemistry with Brass and Zucc. Callahan being a better player to this point in their respective careers has nothing to do with it.
He's shown good chemistry? In one preseason game? Pouliot has been the definition of inconsistent.

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Old
10-02-2013, 02:03 PM
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
So what you are saying is they do a lot and accomplish little?

And I watch plenty of games...
Dave Bolland was Chicagos third line center. He was on pace for just under 17 goals over a full season last year.

Andrew shaw, the teams fourth line center, was on pace for over 15 goals over a full season last year.

Patrick Sharp was a winger, so was Viktor Stalberg, Bryan Bickell all guys on pace for 14 or more goals...

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Old
10-02-2013, 02:05 PM
  #491
NYR Viper
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Dave Bolland was Chicagos third line center. He was on pace for just under 17 goals over a full season last year.

Andrew shaw, the teams fourth line center, was on pace for over 15 goals over a full season last year.

Patrick Sharp was a winger, so was Viktor Stalberg, Bryan Bickell all guys on pace for 14 or more goals...
Dave Bolland was that teams 2nd line center for most of the season.

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Old
10-02-2013, 02:06 PM
  #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Boyle hater #1 checking in:

When I think Brian Boyle, I think excellent depth. I think fourth-line banger who can sway a playoff series with his play. Kind of like Nolan and King did for Los Angeles their cup year; those dudes were an absolute force in the limited minutes they played.

When it comes to Boyle I think 5 points in 38 games, and a -13 for a guy who should be better defensively.

I think penalty killer. I think guy who can fill in on the third-line pending linemates.

What I don't think is power play player. I don't think guy on the ice in the last two minutes of the game player.

Boyle, if used correctly, is an asset to have. I hope when Callahan and Hagelin are healthy, that Boyle finds himself on the fourth line wing full-time, never seeing power play minutes, and not touching the ice in a game the Rangers are down a goal with 2 minutes to go.
Great post and surprisingly very objective.

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10-02-2013, 02:07 PM
  #493
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Does anyone like the name, Lé Norwegian Baguette for the Zucc - Brass - Pouliot line? Nicknames are of utmost importance.

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Old
10-02-2013, 02:19 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
If I was coach, I would have Boyle on the 4th line wing, but I would use him both on the PK and the 2nd PP unit.

I like Boyle on the power play in this new scheme of screen-shooting that AV is using. Callahan on the first unit, Boyle on the second.
Pretty good assessment. On those infrequent occasions that Boyle has gotten pwp he goes to the net and he's hard as hell to move. He's also potted a few goals.

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10-02-2013, 02:19 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Dave Bolland was that teams 2nd line center for most of the season.
Bickell-Toews-Kane
Sharp-Handzus-Hossa
Kruger-Bolland-Frolik
Saad-Shaw-Stalberg

That was there lineup through most of the playoffs. Kruger, Bollan, Saad, Shaw, Stalberg, the only guy at the bottom of the lineup that wasn't realyl scoring in the regular season was Frolik.

It would be different if Boyle is playing with guys who put up 15+ goals. But as i said, he's essentially considered to be "leading" the third line. He slows down that line and is so defensive minded that he forgets about offense.

He is not a suitable third liner on a winning team.

Again, he is a useful player, as has been said. But he belonds on the 4th line, playing 5-9 minutes a night and not sniffing the ice on the PP.

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Old
10-02-2013, 02:22 PM
  #496
NYR Viper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Bickell-Toews-Kane
Sharp-Handzus-Hossa
Kruger-Bolland-Frolik
Saad-Shaw-Stalberg

That was there lineup through most of the playoffs. Kruger, Bollan, Saad, Shaw, Stalberg, the only guy at the bottom of the lineup that wasn't realyl scoring in the regular season was Frolik.

It would be different if Boyle is playing with guys who put up 15+ goals. But as i said, he's essentially considered to be "leading" the third line. He slows down that line and is so defensive minded that he forgets about offense.

He is not a suitable third liner on a winning team.

Again, he is a useful player, as has been said. But he belonds on the 4th line, playing 5-9 minutes a night and not sniffing the ice on the PP.
Handzus was not around for most of the season and if you want to talk about a black hole offensively, look at him.

He had 8 points in TOTAL last year. 8. And he is their 2nd line center? Boyle should be the 2nd line center in NY then!

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Old
10-02-2013, 02:54 PM
  #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthJerseyRanger View Post
When Cally and Hags return...

Line 1: Hagelin - Stepan - Nash
Line 2a: Pouliot - Brassard - Zuccarello
Line 2b: Richards - Miller - Callahan
Line 4: Fast - Moore - Dorsett
I like that...a lot

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Old
10-02-2013, 02:56 PM
  #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Handzus was not around for most of the season and if you want to talk about a black hole offensively, look at him.

He had 8 points in TOTAL last year. 8. And he is their 2nd line center? Boyle should be the 2nd line center in NY then!
You completely overlooked everything else I said. Look at the wingers on those bottom six. 5 out of those 6 guys were pacing 14+ goals over teh course of the season. Better then Boyle and anyone else in our bottom 6.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you have to go and be snotty about it.

There was literally two non productive guys on the blackhawks whole lineup, Handzus and Frolik.

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10-02-2013, 03:01 PM
  #499
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
You completely overlooked everything else I said. Look at the wingers on those bottom six. 5 out of those 6 guys were pacing 14+ goals over teh course of the season. Better then Boyle and anyone else in our bottom 6.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean you have to go and be snotty about it.

There was literally two non productive guys on the blackhawks whole lineup, Handzus and Frolik.
1) Where was I being snotty?

2) I stated a page back that if Boyle had (2) wingers who could control the puck he would be fine. So I agreed.

All I was pointing out was that Handzus is an offensive black hole and they won The Cup with him as their 2nd line center. They then re-signed him and traded Bolland.

Teams can win with the right combinations.

With everyone healthy Boyle should have the support he needs in order to play well wherever he plays.

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Old
10-02-2013, 03:02 PM
  #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
If I was to make an argument for an offensive minded third line, it would be this...

Our top two lines don't have the proven talent and scoring of other top teams in the league. Stepan, Nash, Richards, Brassard, Callahan, and Zuccarello/Hagelin are our top 6 forwards. That's not in the realm of Kane, Toews, Hossa, Saad, Sharp, Bickell, or Marchand, Kreijci, Lucic, Bergeron, Seguin, Horton (I actually think that is debatable, depending on how Richards and Zuccarello play)

So if you're looking for an argument, it's that two lines can't comprise the whole of a sufficient offense.

In my mind, it's a lot simpler than that. I think the only reason this team didn't generate enough offense last year is because the power play was poor. You get our PP to average, we have an average offense.
If we improve our PP to average we have a top-10 offence considering we added Pouliot and get a full season of Zucc/Brass.

Hell with just the expected regression in shooting percentages we should approach the top-5, at least 5v5.

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