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End of fighting in the NHL?

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Old
10-02-2013, 04:00 PM
  #276
Iusedtoloveher
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Unless you have evidence to prove otherwise.
You're more likely to get a concussion once you suffer one. Unless you have proof that Boogard's concussions began because of fighting, you have no evidence to say that fighting caused Boogard to get concussions. His concussions issues may have started in the minors due to a check for all we know. Also, wikipedia is not a valid source.

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10-02-2013, 04:03 PM
  #277
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Well I am waiting for you to name a laundry list of players who had to retire because of a fight. Without even looking things up I have a plethora of names of players who retired from everything BUT fighting and if you care to throw your hat in the ring by naming the wealth of players who retired due to fighting I'll counter that with my list which will show you how small of a role fighting actually plays in career ending injuries.
I'm patiently waiting for this too, but his history has shown us that he'll just say that your question is ridiculous and refuse to answer.

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10-02-2013, 04:05 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
You're more likely to get a concussion once you suffer one. Unless you have proof that Boogard's concussions began because of fighting, you have no evidence to say that fighting caused Boogard to get concussions. His concussions issues may have started in the minors due to a check for all we know. Also, wikipedia is not a valid source.
So no other evidence. Thanks

Quote:
Boogaard sustained a concussion during his last game on Dec. 9, 2010. Known as one of the league’s toughest fighters, the 6-foot-7, 255-pound Boogaard played 277 NHL games, scored three goals and racked up 589 penalty minutes.


Last edited by canucksfan: 10-02-2013 at 04:16 PM.
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10-02-2013, 04:14 PM
  #279
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Very good point Mike Bossy retired early due to back injuries back in junior days and continued in his nhl career.Bobby Orr retired due to knee issues.Bernie Parrant retired die to eye injury.All these hypocrites is sad.lets ban rock concerts and movies.I mean drugs violence and sex

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10-02-2013, 04:22 PM
  #280
Iusedtoloveher
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
So no other evidence. Thanks
You can continue to try to get rid of me all you want, but I'm not going anywhere. You've been exposed as a hypocrite. You can't care about player safety and brain injuries as much as you say you do, and not focus on body checks. The truth is you only care about player safety when it comes to the aspects of the game that you don't care for. If you're honest next time, maybe you won't come out looking as bad you did in this thread.

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10-02-2013, 04:25 PM
  #281
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Why would I watch MMA and not like fighting in hockey? I find MMA fights a lot more entertaining than hockey fights. However, I still like to watch hockey fights.
It isn't going to make me stop debating with you, but it is hard to believe you enjoy fighting in the NHL. I am just saying, if you are this much of an opponent with fighting I really don't think you enjoy it, just saying.


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What do you think about this? Steve Yzerman a player you claimed in this thread would defend fighting wants to end it. How many times in the history of the NHL have GMs lobbied to get rid of fighting?
I read that link and am a little disappointed in Yzerman for this mainly because there is a dead man right now who saved his bacon many a time on the ice. You also have to look at the names in that article. Yzerman, Jim Rutherford and Ray Shero. Now I mentioned the lack of protection Crosby has had over the years and it makes sense to hear Shero talk this way since he has been guilty of not finding ways to protect Crosby. And his father - Fred - would be spinning in his grave if he heard his son talking this way.

I'm not sure what Yzerman's motive behind it is. A lot of the time GMs try and implement rule changes in an area where their team is weak. This could be it.

But the proof is in the pudding here. 98% of the players want it. Maybe we should listen to them, they didn't all fall off a hay wagon. They see a role for it, they see a reason for it and if they are the ones risking their necks out there maybe their opinion matters the most, don't you think?

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10-02-2013, 04:40 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
You can continue to try to get rid of me all you want, but I'm not going anywhere. You've been exposed as a hypocrite. You can't care about player safety and brain injuries as much as you say you do, and not focus on body checks. The truth is you only care about player safety when it comes to the aspects of the game that you don't care for. If you're honest next time, maybe you won't come out looking as bad you did in this thread.
I have repeated this numerous times in this thread. Body checks can cause concussions. In the past, most of the concussions by body checks have been hits where the first point of contact is the head. We still see concussions from body checks because the hits are illegal. The NHL has made significant strides to lessen concussions from body checks. They have made very little strides when it comes to fighting but it is on the way.

I like fighting in hockey that is a fact. I like watching MMA. Look in the previous PPVs I have posted in the MMA section.


Last edited by canucksfan: 10-02-2013 at 04:48 PM.
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10-02-2013, 04:45 PM
  #283
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If fighting is indeed banned , I hope true fans of hockey rally together and boycott a game.

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10-02-2013, 04:51 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
I have repeated this numerous times in this thread. Body checks can cause concussions. In the past, most of the concussions by body checks have been hits where the first point of contact is the head. We still see concussions from body checks because the hits are illegal. The NHL has made significant strides to lessen concussions from body checks. They have made very little strides when it comes to fighting but it is on the way.

I like fighting in hockey that is a fact. I like watching MMA. Look in the previous PPVs I have posted in the MMA section.
So I suppose the numerous times you've been asked the question "Name a list of players whose careers have ended over fighting" is pretty much going to be ignored now huh? It is a legitimate question and I'm waiting to see this laundry list of names. On the flip side shall I get the ball rolling and go through all the names of players who got injured from cheap shots, pucks, sticks, clean checks and so on?

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10-02-2013, 05:04 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
So I suppose the numerous times you've been asked the question "Name a list of players whose careers have ended over fighting" is pretty much going to be ignored now huh? It is a legitimate question and I'm waiting to see this laundry list of names. On the flip side shall I get the ball rolling and go through all the names of players who got injured from cheap shots, pucks, sticks, clean checks and so on?
Won't be ignored. I have to look into it. I will state this, there have been more players whose careers have been ended due to cheap hits than fighting. Cheap hits aren't allowed but fighting is.

My point is fighting isn't needed anymore. Fighting has changed a lot as well. Fighters take MMA lessons, they are bigger, they are stronger and have more developed skills. In the 70's and 80's there weren't enforcers who were 6'5 and over 250 pounds. NHL evolved my taking hits to the head (initial point of contact) out of the game and eventually fighting will be gone to. The fact that some GMs want it gone is something we have never seen before.

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10-02-2013, 05:11 PM
  #286
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Won't be ignored. I have to look into it. I will state this, there have been more players whose careers have been ended due to cheap hits than fighting. Cheap hits aren't allowed but fighting is.

My point is fighting isn't needed anymore. Fighting has changed a lot as well. Fighters take MMA lessons, they are bigger, they are stronger and have more developed skills. In the 70's and 80's there weren't enforcers who were 6'5 and over 250 pounds. NHL evolved my taking hits to the head (initial point of contact) out of the game and eventually fighting will be gone to. The fact that some GMs want it gone is something we have never seen before.
Fighting isn't needed anymore because you say so? Why do we need body checks again? The point of the game is to score goals, right? What is or is not needed is subjective, and you're picking and choosing based on your opinions instead of what the facts state.

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10-02-2013, 05:13 PM
  #287
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Won't be ignored. I have to look into it. I will state this, there have been more players whose careers have been ended due to cheap hits than fighting. Cheap hits aren't allowed but fighting is.

My point is fighting isn't needed anymore. Fighting has changed a lot as well. Fighters take MMA lessons, they are bigger, they are stronger and have more developed skills. In the 70's and 80's there weren't enforcers who were 6'5 and over 250 pounds. NHL evolved my taking hits to the head (initial point of contact) out of the game and eventually fighting will be gone to. The fact that some GMs want it gone is something we have never seen before.
The GMs that want it gone are from a team who is among the softest in the NHL (Tampa), a team who hasn't been in the playoffs this decade (Rutherford) and a team who was intimidated out of the building last spring (Pens). Don't kid yourselves that GMs have agendas on their mind to help their own team.

The fact that you have to "look into it" tells me all I need to know. Almost no one has ended their career because of a fight. Cheap shots still happen despite being penalized. Why? Because the game is fast, it is played by humans. It happens. Fighting isn't allowed either. It is penalized.

You are focusing on probably the smallest reason why careers end. You have your own agenda here and for your own sake you should have tried to come into this debate with a laundry list of players who retired because of a fight. You didn't. Why you keep blowing your trumpet is beyond me.

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10-02-2013, 05:25 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I read that link and am a little disappointed in Yzerman for this...

I'm not sure what Yzerman's motive behind it is. A lot of the time GMs try and implement rule changes in an area where their team is weak. This could be it.
Don't be. As an executive, this is who Yzerman is. He doesn't advocate for the good of the game, he advocates for the good of his current roster composition.

At a governors meeting about increasing scoring he tried to get the govs to re-ban the two-line pass. At the time, his team was playing a passive 1-3-1 in some situations and a zero forechecker trap the rest of the time.

Needless to say, the only possible motive for tabling a motion like that at a meeting like that was to create a competitive advantage for his club.

As a front-office type, he's shown himself to be that guy that would want to ban left-handed sticks if he had an entirely right-shooting team.

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10-02-2013, 05:29 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Iusedtoloveher View Post
Fighting isn't needed anymore because you say so? Why do we need body checks again? The point of the game is to score goals, right? What is or is not needed is subjective, and you're picking and choosing based on your opinions instead of what the facts state.
Why is fighting needed?

Body checks are needed to check the opposition.

Scotty Bowman

Quote:
Bowman would express further concern to TSN Hockey Insider Pierre LeBrun on ESPN.com Wednesday, saying "It's a pretty complex issue. But with the emphasis on hits to the head, and the seriousness of concussions, if you look at fighting, it's mostly hits to the head. It's something that has to be looked at."
Ray Shero, son of Fred Shero known for the Broad Street Bullies wants it gone. Yzerman wants fighting gone. We will see more people come out against it.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/fightin...ence-1.1480167

Quote:
Over the summer the Canadian Medical Association blasted NHL team owners for being too tolerant of violence in hockey, adding that the teams have a financial interest in promoting fighting

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10-02-2013, 05:35 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Don't be. As an executive, this is who Yzerman is. He doesn't advocate for the good of the game, he advocates for the good of his current roster composition.

At a governors meeting about increasing scoring he tried to get the govs to re-ban the two-line pass. At the time, his team was playing a passive 1-3-1 in some situations and a zero forechecker trap the rest of the time.

Needless to say, the only possible motive for tabling a motion like that at a meeting like that was to create a competitive advantage for his club.

As a front-office type, he's shown himself to be that guy that would want to ban left-handed sticks if he had an entirely right-shooting team.
yeah fair points, I forgot about Yzerman and those suggestions. Stevie Y, always the competitor even wearing a suit, hehe. But still, he could have Ken Holland's job in 5 years and be gone from Tampa. This is why doing anything for the good of your team doesn't make sense since you are hired to be fired. Yzerman is a really obscure name in all of this. How many times did an enforcer save his bacon?

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10-02-2013, 05:43 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
The GMs that want it gone are from a team who is among the softest in the NHL (Tampa), a team who hasn't been in the playoffs this decade (Rutherford) and a team who was intimidated out of the building last spring (Pens). Don't kid yourselves that GMs have agendas on their mind to help their own team.
Carolina last year 14th in fights, Tampa Bay 5th, Pens 17th. Don't you think a guy like Yzerman would get tougher if he felt fighting was important?

Quote:
The fact that you have to "look into it" tells me all I need to know. Almost no one has ended their career because of a fight. Cheap shots still happen despite being penalized. Why? Because the game is fast, it is played by humans. It happens. Fighting isn't allowed either. It is penalized.
It's hard to look into which players retired due to concussions. We didn't know as much as we do today about concussions. Players would play through the headaches. They didn't want to be labelled as being pansies for a headache. The more I look into it, I understand that it is not just one concussion ,or one blow to the head, it is multiple blows to the head. Grimson had 13 concussions, the last one was from a fight. That ended his career. Same with Deadmarsh. Boogaard's life ended largely due to fighting. Probert's life ended largely due to fighting. I want blows to the head diminished. Taking out fighting will do this.

Quote:
You are focusing on probably the smallest reason why careers end. You have your own agenda here and for your own sake you should have tried to come into this debate with a laundry list of players who retired because of a fight. You didn't. Why you keep blowing your trumpet is beyond me.
Blows to the head, not career. My agenda is player safety. I can't fault it if I care about the players and you don't.

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10-02-2013, 06:09 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
yeah fair points, I forgot about Yzerman and those suggestions. Stevie Y, always the competitor even wearing a suit, hehe. But still, he could have Ken Holland's job in 5 years and be gone from Tampa. This is why doing anything for the good of your team doesn't make sense since you are hired to be fired. Yzerman is a really obscure name in all of this. How many times did an enforcer save his bacon?
Nobody really messed with Stevie Y when Probert, McCarty, and Kocur were there. And that was a tough as nails Norris divion he played in the first part of his career. Conversely plenty of players took liberties with Mario due to no enforcers.

Imagine how those infamous Colorado/Detroit games would have gone down if fighting were barred? Picture Claude Lemieux in such a situation. And he's not even the worst rat in the game (did fight the odd time and could play).

I cringe when I think of players like Ott, Lapierre, Avery, Burrows playing in a game where fighting was a game misconduct

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10-02-2013, 06:14 PM
  #293
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yeah fair points, I forgot about Yzerman and those suggestions. Stevie Y, always the competitor even wearing a suit, hehe. But still, he could have Ken Holland's job in 5 years and be gone from Tampa. This is why doing anything for the good of your team doesn't make sense since you are hired to be fired. Yzerman is a really obscure name in all of this. How many times did an enforcer save his bacon?
There's no question it's short-sighted and I don't understand it either. What if someone he drafted turned into another Milan Lucic? Another guy he drafted turned into a defenseman in the vein of Chara? He'd immediately flip-flop on this just as he stopped whining about the two-line pass five seconds after he fired Guy Boucher.

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10-02-2013, 06:19 PM
  #294
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Let's take out fighting, bodychecking and no raising the puck off the ice.

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10-02-2013, 06:25 PM
  #295
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Nobody really messed with Stevie Y when Probert, McCarty, and Kocur were there. And that was a tough as nails Norris divion he played in the first part of his career. Conversely plenty of players took liberties with Mario due to no enforcers.

Imagine how those infamous Colorado/Detroit games would have gone down if fighting were barred? Picture Claude Lemieux in such a situation. And he's not even the worst rat in the game (did fight the odd time and could play).

I cringe when I think of players like Ott, Lapierre, Avery, Burrows playing in a game where fighting was a game misconduct
This is actually not correct. A couple seasons during Mario's career, the Penguins had something like 6 on the roster at the same time. The only club that had more enforcers during that era than Pittsburgh did was Philadelphia.

The problem Mario had wasn't that physical intimidation was deployed against him (didn't work when it was, anyway...the last guy I remember taking a real run at him, Jay McKee, ended up missing something like 8 months with a concussion after eating the reverse hit).

When people talk about the "abuse" Mario dealt with, it was that the referees felt that because he was big, he should be able to fight through hooks and interference. But the perpetrators of that stuff weren't trying to intimidate him.

Zarley Zalapski is a name that springs to mind. The habs coach moved him to wing and he just waterskied behind Lemieux for an entire playoff series. Tom Fitzgerald and Dave Lowry are two other guys who did that. Enforcers have never really functioned as deterrents to illegal, but non-violent, defensive tactics. That's purely a referee thing.

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10-02-2013, 06:25 PM
  #296
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Paul Maurice talked about the issue at hand on TSN tonight; he has been a head coach in the NHL and KHL.

He said while the KHL is not as rough for hitting and digging in the corners, the stickwork is increased as is the chirping and targetting the stars. He also confirmed something predictable; it's a routine thing for 3rd and 4th line trolls attempting to goad better players into a fight to get ejected.


Aaron Ward also brought a relevant point about the proposal to add a game misconduct; that wont curb enforcers dropping the gloves such as Orr and Parros as those two rarely get icetime. It will only curb the natural fights which occur (ie Lecaviller/Iginla).

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10-02-2013, 07:07 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Why is fighting needed?

Body checks are needed to check the opposition.

Scotty Bowman



Ray Shero, son of Fred Shero known for the Broad Street Bullies wants it gone. Yzerman wants fighting gone. We will see more people come out against it.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/fightin...ence-1.1480167
Fighting is needed for me to tune into the sport, and for players to police themselves.

Why do players need to check the opposition? There aren't any checks in street hockey or floor hockey. If you can't stop them from scoring with your stick, do you need to stop them?

Also, concussions can occur anytime the brain gets rattled. All of Eric Lindros' concussions were a result of body checks, illegal or not. Let's take a look at some of the players who had to retire due to concussions.

Pronger = hit hard into the boards.
Savard = blindside hit by Matt Cooke
LaFontaine = a high hit from Francois Leroux
Lindros = a hit from Darius Kasparaitis.
Moore = a sucker punch to the head by Todd Bertuzzi.
Stevens = hit in the head by a puck.
Scatchard = "never suffered a single catastrophic injury that became the subject of headlines on sports pages. For him, it was just the accumulation of your typical hockey run-ins."
Richter - hit in the mask by a puck.
Primeau - in the first documented one he was checked by Bob Boughner.
Jeff Beukeboom - sucker punched by Matt Johnson
Peter Svboda - hit by Shane Doan
Courtnall - elbow to the chin
Vaske = hit from behind by Eric Lacroix


I wonder what a guy who's had to deal with this would have to say...take it away Keith Primeau.

Do you agree with the NHL's stance that the majority of concussions are the result of hitting rather than fighting?

One hundred percent. For me, the argument where fighting is the precursor to neurological disease, it's not a fair assessment. It's totally hypothetical.

Now if that doesn't convince you that other things are at least as dangerous, and probably more dangerous than fights, I don't know what will. If you're truly worried about player safety, you need to start a campaign to get rid of the body check, it's unnecessary, and hazardous to player safety.

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10-02-2013, 07:50 PM
  #298
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If fighting is indeed banned , I hope true fans of hockey rally together and boycott a game.
I went to a couple of games last year that didn't have a fight even though it's allowed.

I felt oppressed.

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10-02-2013, 09:58 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by leeaf83 View Post
Nobody really messed with Stevie Y when Probert, McCarty, and Kocur were there. And that was a tough as nails Norris divion he played in the first part of his career. Conversely plenty of players took liberties with Mario due to no enforcers.

Imagine how those infamous Colorado/Detroit games would have gone down if fighting were barred? Picture Claude Lemieux in such a situation. And he's not even the worst rat in the game (did fight the odd time and could play).

I cringe when I think of players like Ott, Lapierre, Avery, Burrows playing in a game where fighting was a game misconduct
Brian Burke has said it, eliminate fighting and the rats run the league.

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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
Carolina last year 14th in fights, Tampa Bay 5th, Pens 17th. Don't you think a guy like Yzerman would get tougher if he felt fighting was important?
I think Yzerman, and Bowman for that matter, have very short memories. The difference between Yzerman and Mario was that Mario always had guys picking on him while Yzerman barely played at all without either one of Probert or Kocur or McCarty. Not to mention the times when he played on the same line as Shanahan. Bowman coached Probert, Grimson, McCarty and Kocur in Detroit. How much better did he sleep at night knowing nobody was going to mess with Yzerman and Fedorov? These guys forget things very quickly.

Quote:
It's hard to look into which players retired due to concussions. We didn't know as much as we do today about concussions. Players would play through the headaches. They didn't want to be labelled as being pansies for a headache. The more I look into it, I understand that it is not just one concussion ,or one blow to the head, it is multiple blows to the head. Grimson had 13 concussions, the last one was from a fight. That ended his career. Same with Deadmarsh. Boogaard's life ended largely due to fighting. Probert's life ended largely due to fighting. I want blows to the head diminished. Taking out fighting will do this.
So do didn't like my examples of all the players who have dropped the gloves time and time again over a span of years can carry on with their normal lives, have good jobs and still be smart men outside of hockey? But the second a Boogey comes along and a Probert who can't keep anything out of his nose all of the sudden the big dark enemy is fighting? I'm telling you, it is how you handle your role that defines you. You really want to curb player safety sign a petition to get body checking out of the game. Nothing is more dangerous than an open ice check. Two guys dropping the mitts at least see it coming.


Quote:
Blows to the head, not career. My agenda is player safety. I can't fault it if I care about the players and you don't
You aren't ever going to make players safe in a game where there are grown men playing in cramped confines with no out of bounds but just glass and boards. A game where they carry a stick, a game where they shoot a puck as hard as possible. And a game where tempers flare. But if you really want to keep players safe, let's start with the stars of the game, the Crosbys, the Stamkoses. You want to keep these guys safe, make sure the threat of a fight from an enforcer is present so that there aren't liberties taken against them.

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10-02-2013, 10:03 PM
  #300
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The funny thing about Yzerman and Bowman's comments are the fact that if it weren't for fighting, that generation of Red Wings perhaps may not have won a Cup. Don't believe me? Flashback to March 26, 1997. The Avs won the Cup in 1996 at the expense of Detroit. The Wings were a team that choked at that time, and were deemed to be soft. The Avs were the best team in the NHL in the 1996-'97 season. Claude Lemieux had pasted Kris Draper from behind in the 1996 postseason and no one did anything about it, until March 26, 1997. I'd like to say Darren McCarty started it, but he didn't. Igor Larionov did. He got fed up with Forsberg and tackled him. It was at this point McCarty slugged Lemieux. Lemieux turtled. Roy didn't like seeing this and bolted to center ice where Shanahan did the most famous clothesline in history. Vernon comes to center ice and fights Roy. Roy ends up bloodied. Forsberg ends up bloodied. Lemieux ends up bloodied. The crwod goes nuts. Bowman is seen on the bench liking what he sees. The Wings win the game in overtime and two months later beat the Avs in the playoffs. Chokers no more. Three Cups in 6 years, two at the expense of the Avs. Up until March 26, 1997 the Wings were a bit of pushovers. That changed on that day.

So please, to anyone out there, read this paragraph and explain to me how fighting didn't help the best team we've seen in 25 years and how they got the upper edge on the best rivalry we've seen in at least 20 years.

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