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October 2, 2013| vs. Toronto. Johnny B. GOODe; BAD to the Bone; UGLY Truth

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10-03-2013, 04:24 PM
  #301
Appleyard
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The whole Couts and linemates talk is pretty silly.

It is not only the linemates that limit his offensive production, but how he is used, especially last year.

He arguably had the 2nd hardest minutes of any centre/forward in the NHL last season.

His zone starts were stupid, 9th in the whole NHL, he started 68% in his own zone.

Only Kulemin (64.5%) and Fisher (61.9%) in the whole NHL started more than 60% in their own zone and got more than 20 points.

He had the 7th hardest Quality of competition among centres in the NHL. He was playing the best players on the other team... every night.

Only him, Jay Mcclement, Kulemin and Grabovski had such an abysmal combination in the NHL, being in the top 25 in both lists. The other three had -12 or more relative Corsi (-32, -22 and -13), Couts was at +2.1, he played better than all three, and had worse linemates by a mile.

There is a reason Grabovski went from pacing at 50, 49, 58 and 57 points in 4 NHL seasons before last to pacing for 27 last season, (the same as Couts interestingly) and this season will miraculously get 50 again.

There is also a reason Kulemin went from 57 points one year to pacing 33 and 39 the two seasons after.

There is also a reason why when Jay Mcclement came into the league he paced more than 30 points in his first two years and has not since.

Couts plays harder minutes that Kulemin and Grabovski.

Grabovskis year last year showed what those kind of minutes do. Turn a 50 point player into a 25-30 point player.

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10-03-2013, 04:25 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Cyborg LeClair View Post
Hartnell did look a lot faster this game than last year though. He was able to beat players to loose pucks and was good on board battles. However, like the original poster said, his hands were not working. He couldn't bury anything and when he had good chances he wouldn't go for the shot until the defense was already in position to block/deflect the shot.

But overall, I think Hartnell looks poised for a bounce back season
Yeah, I made mention to that in my earlier GBU. I was just speaking to his overall goofy/clumbsy style.

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10-03-2013, 04:26 PM
  #303
Totally Radivojevic
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Did Luke Schenn get benched/hurt? Only played 14:39.

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10-03-2013, 04:27 PM
  #304
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Mez over 3 minutes more than Schenn... what the ****?

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10-03-2013, 04:31 PM
  #305
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Mez over 3 minutes more than Schenn... what the ****?

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10-03-2013, 04:33 PM
  #306
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I'm getting tired of seeing that constipated face on the bench and post game...Holmgren's in my avatar pic is the other

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10-03-2013, 04:34 PM
  #307
Cyborg LeClair
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
The whole Couts and linemates talk is pretty silly.

It is not only the linemates that limit his offensive production, but how he is used, especially last year.

He arguably had the 2nd hardest minutes of any centre/forward in the NHL last season.

His zone starts were stupid, 9th in the whole NHL, he started 68% in his own zone.

Only Kulemin (64.5%) and Fisher (61.9%) in the whole NHL started more than 60% in their own zone and got more than 20 points.

He had the 7th hardest Quality of competition among centres in the NHL. He was playing the best players on the other team... every night.

Only him, Jay Mcclement, Kulemin and Grabovski had such an abysmal combination in the NHL, being in the top 25 in both lists. The other three had -12 or more relative Corsi (-32, -22 and -13), Couts was at +2.1, he played better than all three, and had worse linemates by a mile.

There is a reason Grabovski went from pacing at 50, 49, 58 and 57 points in 4 NHL seasons before last to pacing for 27 last season, (the same as Couts interestingly) and this season will miraculously get 50 again.

There is also a reason Kulemin went from 57 points one year to pacing 33 and 39 the two seasons after.

There is also a reason why when Jay Mcclement came into the league he paced more than 30 points in his first two years and has not since.

Couts plays harder minutes that Kulemin and Grabovski.

Grabovskis year last year showed what those kind of minutes do. Turn a 50 point player into a 25-30 point player.
I think the hope/expectation is that Couts will eventually be able to produce despite his hard defensive assignments. I still believe it could happen too, considering he's only 20 and is getting stronger every year

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10-03-2013, 04:39 PM
  #308
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Nobody can play his assignments/minutes with a bad combination of linemates and manage to produce at a decent level, unless they're a combination of Bobby Clarke and Eric Lindros.

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10-03-2013, 04:41 PM
  #309
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Mez over 3 minutes more than Schenn... what the ****?
7 Powerplays will do that.

I also thought Mez didn't look too bad.
I wouldn't be surprised to see him getting more than 20min/night after he gets into some king of groove in the first 10 games or so.
Afterall, he's still a pretty gifted player, skill- and physical-wise.

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10-03-2013, 04:51 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
7 Powerplays will do that.

I also thought Mez didn't look too bad.
I wouldn't be surprised to see him getting more than 20min/night after he gets into some king of groove in the first 10 games or so.
Afterall, he's still a pretty gifted player, skill- and physical-wise.
IMO he was the worst of the bunch but overall the d was solid.

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10-03-2013, 05:20 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Mez over 3 minutes more than Schenn... what the ****?
Seven PPs

Two PKs

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10-03-2013, 05:42 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
IMO he was the worst of the bunch but overall the d was solid.
The defense was altogether "meh" last night. Calling Mez (or anyone) the worst last night is just splitting hairs. I don't think anyone stood out as the best or worst. Grossmann had a couple of nice hits IIRC, but other than I didn't notice anyone really looking any better or worse than any other defenseman. I know +/- means nothing, but there were four goals scored, none of which Mez was on the ice for.

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10-03-2013, 05:45 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Nobody can play his assignments/minutes with a bad combination of linemates and manage to produce at a decent level, unless they're a combination of Bobby Clarke and Eric Lindros.
6'4" Playmaking two way center? That's Couturier

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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
7 Powerplays will do that.

I also thought Mez didn't look too bad.
I wouldn't be surprised to see him getting more than 20min/night after he gets into some king of groove in the first 10 games or so.
Afterall, he's still a pretty gifted player, skill- and physical-wise.
I thought Mez looked befuddled on the PP everytime he had the puck. Like, if he didn't pass to a better player soon, he was gonna make a mistake that would lead to a breakaway

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10-03-2013, 06:21 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The defense was altogether "meh" last night. Calling Mez (or anyone) the worst last night is just splitting hairs. I don't think anyone stood out as the best or worst. Grossmann had a couple of nice hits IIRC, but other than I didn't notice anyone really looking any better or worse than any other defenseman. I know +/- means nothing, but there were four goals scored, none of which Mez was on the ice for.
He also blocked 3 shots in a row. One with a leg save

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10-03-2013, 06:41 PM
  #315
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Grossmann for Vezinna.

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10-03-2013, 07:13 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The defense was altogether "meh" last night. Calling Mez (or anyone) the worst last night is just splitting hairs. I don't think anyone stood out as the best or worst. Grossmann had a couple of nice hits IIRC, but other than I didn't notice anyone really looking any better or worse than any other defenseman. I know +/- means nothing, but there were four goals scored, none of which Mez was on the ice for.
I noticed Streit and Kimmo specifically Streit moving the puck very well. Streit even joined the rush a couple times. I noticed Grossmann for his beast pk shift so that a positive. Coburn and Schenn I didn't notice at all, which I guess is a good thing. While Mez wasn't terrible, he didn't have as string a game as the others. Particularly on the pp he looked out of place/lost on the pp. I will say he can still bring it from the point and he had a nice keep in (jumped at the blue line and reeled the puck in) but that's it. I don't think its splitting hairs to say he was the worst, again not bad but the worst.

Idk maybe I was paying specific attention to him cause I have my doubts but we all do that and I really don't think I was being overly critical. The others just either stood out more for their positives or didn't have a particularly bad shift unlike Mez who was up and down.

Also weren't two of the four goals pp goals? If so only two could have effected +/- which is a pretty stupid stat.

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10-03-2013, 07:22 PM
  #317
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Mez looked lost often, but his shot is still there so that's a big plus. I don't trust him to make more than a simple pass though, based on the decision making I saw.

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10-03-2013, 07:43 PM
  #318
Appleyard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Nobody can play his assignments/minutes with a bad combination of linemates and manage to produce at a decent level, unless they're a combination of Bobby Clarke and Eric Lindros.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg LeClair View Post
I think the hope/expectation is that Couts will eventually be able to produce despite his hard defensive assignments. I still believe it could happen too, considering he's only 20 and is getting stronger every year
I doubt anyone in NHL history could have played those kind of minutes and put up more than 50 points in todays NHL. Well, without being benched repeatedly for blowing defensive duties!

Off the top of my head the only guy close would be Ron Francis, looking at the 90-91 playoffs and 91-92 season, where he had ~60 in that kind of role, (maybe easier zone starts, but no stats, Trottier played a big role at centre as well) but in a league that scored 7GPG instead of the 5GPG now, so factored that was ~45 points in todays NHL.

In 98-99 he got 52 points in that kind of role, though he was really on 2nd line, but with the hard minutes expected on a 3rd, still very impressive, maybe more so than 91-92 factoring age and linemates.

Ron Francis would be a 100pt player in his prime in todays NHL (going of the 90 points a season he put up aged 33-35 in an era with similar scoring.) So he was getting 40-50% less points he would in a different role in 91-92.

Also, more recently, going off when Holik, Bolland, Grabovski, Kapanen, Handzus, Dupuis, Bonk and Clutterbuck going from some of the hardest 3rd line mins in the league to 2nd line minutes (one way or another) they on average lost or gained ~30-50% points according to their move.

So Couts getting 29 paced points and 27 in two years with those minutes indicate he would be at about 45-56 points each season for the last two (paced) with more normal minutes, be they easy 3rd line or hard 2nd line.

Therefore to get 50 points while playing those kind of minutes it is probable that a player would have to be a 90-100 point player.

And therefore if your player is playing those minutes and getting 50 points you are completely wasting one of the top 5 forwards in the league.

And if your player has the defensive acumen to get 50 points while having those minutes and not cost the team they are probably one of the best two way centres of all time. A la Ron Francis.

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