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Old
10-06-2013, 02:59 AM
  #26
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as good as Holmgren's eye for talent is his cap management has been pretty bad.

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10-06-2013, 06:48 AM
  #27
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JVR trade will prove to be as bad as a trade for us as the LeClair trade was for Montreal.

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10-06-2013, 06:49 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Never mind the concussion, the 4 surgeries in 15 months had an impact on his play. He was always slow but he was getting beaten to the outside more frequently. Look at Kimmo now and that's basically what we'd have if Pronger was playing. People act like he's 30 years old and in his prime but he was starting to play worse.
If I recall he was on an abslute offensive tear when he go his concussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by briererocks View Post
1. Bryz signing was a disaster.

2. Richards trade has not worked out. Simmonds is heavily overrated by this board and Schenn has not developed into a good player yet.

3. Pronger trade in retrospect was arguably a mistake. Yes we made it to the SCF but we lost 4 first round draft picks and have probably the worst prospect pool in the NHL and are dealing with cap issues every season.

4. The Eminger trade for a first round pick was horrific.

5. The Meszros trade was bad.


6. The Matt Carle trade was bad.


7. The JVR trade was bad (and I like L. Schenn).

8. Our defense is the most expensive in the NHL and is probably the worst defense in the NHL.

9. He brought in Lavi.


He has been an epic failure.
The unbolded things in the quote are all spot on, and he probably needs to go. However...

Richards is good, but Simmonds alone has outscored him over the last two seasons. Then you add in the value of Schenn and the second rounder and I think it more than makes up for the things Richards can do that Simmonds can't (nvm some of the things Simmonds can do that Richie can't, and age and cap flexibility).

The Pronger and Mezsaros trades are only a mistake if You have a crystal ball and know they're both going to lose huge time to injuries. That's an unreasonable expectation. A 2nd rounder for Mesaros was a decent trade. He won the award for best Flyers defenseman the year after we got him. He's yet to hit hiss tride since then though.

Matt Carle was a 25 minute a night defenseman on this team for years. And a productive one at that. That trade was fine.

He brought in Lavi, who subsequently coached this team to the Finals with a terrible, possibly blind goalie in net.

If we're gonna cucify him let's do it for the right reasons.

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10-06-2013, 06:52 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
If I recall he was on an abslute offensive tear when he go his concussion.



The unbolded things in the quote are all spot on, and he probably needs to go. However...

Richards is good, but Simmonds alone has outscored him over the last two seasons. Then you add in the value of Schenn and the second rounder and I think it more than makes up for the things Richards can do that Simmonds can't (nvm some of the things Simmonds can do that Richie can't, and age and cap flexibility).

The Pronger and Mezsaros trades are only a mistake if You have a crystal ball and know they're both going to lose huge time to injuries. That's an unreasonable expectation. A 2nd rounder for Mesaros was a decent trade. He won the award for best Flyers defenseman the year after we got him. He's yet to hit hiss tride since then though.

Matt Carle was a 25 minute a night defenseman on this team for years. And a productive one at that. That trade was fine.

He brought in Lavi, who subsequently coached this team to the Finals with a terrible, possibly blind goalie in net.

If we're gonna cucify him let's do it for the right reasons.
See, I think our defensive talent is fine, it's just the coach that blows, so I would have bolded 8 and not 9.

Lavy needs a very specific type of team to win, and he doesn't have it here. He's really not that good a coach. There are AHL and ECHL coaches that could adjust to their roster better than he does.

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10-06-2013, 07:00 AM
  #30
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This team can't score 5 on 5 for the 2nd year in a row. So either the forwards are overrated or the system is bad. I say change the system soon and if that doesn't drastically change the scoring, then dump the GM.

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10-06-2013, 07:00 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
See, I think our defensive talent is fine, it's just the coach that blows, so I would have bolded 8 and not 9.

Lavy needs a very specific type of team to win, and he doesn't have it here. He's really not that good a coach. There are AHL and ECHL coaches that could adjust to their roster better than he does.
I would say our defence is about average to slightly below... about 13th-20th in the NHL.

Our offence and offensive depth is arguably top 5. 7 40 point scorers.

Yeh, he still tries the same drop pass breakout if off the man on the boards does not work... that did not work a year and a half ago, he cannot adjust at all, and seems so stubborn, especially when last year he played a more standard system with worse players out of necessity and the team looked the best it had all year.

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10-06-2013, 07:09 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briererocks View Post
1. Bryz signing was a disaster.

2. Richards trade has not worked out. Simmonds is heavily overrated by this board and Schenn has not developed into a good player yet.

3. Pronger trade in retrospect was arguably a mistake. Yes we made it to the SCF but we lost 4 first round draft picks and have probably the worst prospect pool in the NHL and are dealing with cap issues every season.

4. The Eminger trade for a first round pick was horrific.

5. The Meszros trade was bad.

6. The Matt Carle trade was bad.

7. The JVR trade was bad (and I like L. Schenn).

8. Our defense is the most expensive in the NHL and is probably the worst defense in the NHL.

9. He brought in Lavi.

He has been an epic failure.
All of these reasons, most of them wrong, and the insistence that Michael Leighton is an NHL goaltender is not one of them. If he hadn't done that, at least half of your points come off the table entirely.

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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
See, I think our defensive talent is fine, it's just the coach that blows, so I would have bolded 8 and not 9.

Lavy needs a very specific type of team to win, and he doesn't have it here. He's really not that good a coach. There are AHL and ECHL coaches that could adjust to their roster better than he does.
The problem is that he had the team, and it was systematically taken away from him. That's on the GM, not the coach. You hired the coach to do what he is doing, and the GM put him in the position to fail. It's on the GM to change the coach, not the coach to do things he wasn't hired to do. That's how you get yourself fired faster.

The guy won a Cup, and should have had another one. He didn't forget how to coach once the core of the team was blown to pieces because Big Ed had a conniption.

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10-06-2013, 10:31 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Victory5 View Post
Homer overreacts to everything


We should have kept the core from the 2010 run, and with Bob coming up, we could have had a solid goalie for years to come.


Simple in hindsight I guess
Unfortunately that was impossible, given the cap situation and complete lack of cheap prospects to fill the gaps. We had nobody to put on the roster, yet not enough money to fill the needs via free agency. So, big trades had to happen. For years it was predicted around here something was gonna have to give, because of Homer's cap and asset management. The Richards and Carter trades were what gave.

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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
The problem is that he had the team, and it was systematically taken away from him. That's on the GM, not the coach. You hired the coach to do what he is doing, and the GM put him in the position to fail. It's on the GM to change the coach, not the coach to do things he wasn't hired to do. That's how you get yourself fired faster.

The guy won a Cup, and should have had another one. He didn't forget how to coach once the core of the team was blown to pieces because Big Ed had a conniption.
This is true. A combination of GM and owner have put Lavi in a position where I don't believe he can succeed. However, at this point it's easier to change the coach than it is to fix the roster for him.

Lavi is not a coach who seems to teach defensive responsibility, based on everything we've heard. So unless a player already has those skills, he won't be honing them under Lavi. The 2009-10 team had the players who could do that; he inherited a roster that could win, and pushed them. Now, we don't have players like that, and the defensive zone play has gone from excellent to average. Average isn't good enough for a Cup, and I see no reason to expect it to improve.

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10-06-2013, 11:04 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
JVR trade will prove to be as bad as a trade for us as the LeClair trade was for Montreal.
11 guys have cracked 50 goals since the lockout. I'd be surprised if JVR ever gets 50 goals in a season. LeClair did it 3 times.

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10-06-2013, 11:17 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
11 guys have cracked 50 goals since the lockout. I'd be surprised if JVR ever gets 50 goals in a season. LeClair did it 3 times.
JVR will be a perennial 35-40 goal scorer, and if the NHL achieves their goal of get the GPG average up to 6.5-7, he could be a 50 goal scorer.

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10-06-2013, 11:47 AM
  #36
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Holmgren is an average to slightly above average gm. That said, his big undoing is the turnover on the roster year to year, and lack of a long term plan.

That is what is killing this franchise right now

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10-06-2013, 11:54 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Holmgren is an average to slightly above average gm. That said, his big undoing is the turnover on the roster year to year, and lack of a long term plan.

That is what is killing this franchise right now
Would disagree. I would put Homer in the bottom 20% of GMs, Comcast's money pit helps cover up his true level.

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10-06-2013, 11:55 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Richards is good, but Simmonds alone has outscored him over the last two seasons. Then you add in the value of Schenn and the second rounder and I think it more than makes up for the things Richards can do that Simmonds can't (nvm some of the things Simmonds can do that Richie can't, and age and cap flexibility).

The Pronger and Mezsaros trades are only a mistake if You have a crystal ball and know they're both going to lose huge time to injuries. That's an unreasonable expectation. A 2nd rounder for Mesaros was a decent trade. He won the award for best Flyers defenseman the year after we got him. He's yet to hit hiss tride since then though.
To be fair to Richards, he's not exactly used as a scorer or at least relied upon as such in LA. He has a lot to compete with there that he'll never beat out (just off the top of my head both Carter and Kopitar are probably the cornerstones of their offense). Richards was never a big scorer, but I definitely think he could do as well and probably better then Simmonds offensively if he were put into a similar position as he was here.

The Meszaros trade was bad to begin with. At the time of it, if you recall, there were people like me who immediately knew Meszaros' bad rep in Tampa. Tampa gave him away for basically nothing and it's because he has injury problems, had regressed badly, and was a cap problem. That's exactly what happened to him with us too. Didn't really need a crystal ball for that. If anything, that one season where he excelled with us was more surprising then how he is now.

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10-06-2013, 11:56 AM
  #39
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Also, Laviolette isn't a bad coach. Like others have said, he just was kind of put in a pretty easy position to fail by the GM and president. That's different from being a bad coach flat-out.

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10-06-2013, 12:06 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Would disagree. I would put Homer in the bottom 20% of GMs, Comcast's money pit helps cover up his true level.
I can see that argument. I think he's mediocre, though. He has a lot of talent on the roster, which is better than some clubs can say. It's just there's no strategy or patience. That's the issue IMO

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10-06-2013, 12:19 PM
  #41
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Honestly, if a team with a halfway decent defense picks up Bryzgalov this season, Bryz will look awesome.
The past two seasons he was the brunt of most of the rath hurled at this team by many of the fans. Just as Mason & Emory will hear this season.
The defense are large and slow, they get in the way in front of the goalie, thus blocking his vision. The result are goals against the Flyers. Bernie Parent, Pelle Lindbergh, and Ron Hextall would look porous behind this defense as well.
Why can't the organization see this as a problem, and address it?

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10-06-2013, 12:22 PM
  #42
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Honestly, if a team with a halfway decent defense picks up Bryzgalov this season, Bryz will look awesome.
The past two seasons he was the brunt of most of the rath hurled at this team by many of the fans. Just as Mason & Emory will hear this season.
The defense are large and slow, they get in the way in front of the goalie, thus blocking his vision. The result are goals against the Flyers. Bernie Parent, Pelle Lindbergh, and Ron Hextall would look porous behind this defense as well.
Why can't the organization see this as a problem, and address it?
Yeah, no. The defense did not help but Bryz was totally inept. Emery and Mason have already looked far better with just as bad of a defense in front of them

Bryz cashed in and put no work ethic in. He's a lazy player and is only good if he's on an elite defensive team

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10-06-2013, 12:28 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briererocks View Post
1. Bryz signing was a disaster.

2. Richards trade has not worked out. Simmonds is heavily overrated by this board and Schenn has not developed into a good player yet.

3. Pronger trade in retrospect was arguably a mistake. Yes we made it to the SCF but we lost 4 first round draft picks and have probably the worst prospect pool in the NHL and are dealing with cap issues every season.

4. The Eminger trade for a first round pick was horrific.

5. The Meszros trade was bad.

6. The Matt Carle trade was bad.

7. The JVR trade was bad (and I like L. Schenn).

8. Our defense is the most expensive in the NHL and is probably the worst defense in the NHL.

9. He brought in Lavi.

He has been an epic failure.
Perhaps you would be better served following the Habs for now on...imho

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10-06-2013, 12:38 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
If I recall he was on an abslute offensive tear when he go his concussion.



The unbolded things in the quote are all spot on, and he probably needs to go. However...

Richards is good, but Simmonds alone has outscored him over the last two seasons. Then you add in the value of Schenn and the second rounder and I think it more than makes up for the things Richards can do that Simmonds can't (nvm some of the things Simmonds can do that Richie can't, and age and cap flexibility).

The Pronger and Mezsaros trades are only a mistake if You have a crystal ball and know they're both going to lose huge time to injuries. That's an unreasonable expectation. A 2nd rounder for Mesaros was a decent trade. He won the award for best Flyers defenseman the year after we got him. He's yet to hit hiss tride since then though.

Matt Carle was a 25 minute a night defenseman on this team for years. And a productive one at that. That trade was fine.

He brought in Lavi, who subsequently coached this team to the Finals with a terrible, possibly blind goalie in net.

If we're gonna cucify him let's do it for the right reasons.
As GarbageGoal said, the systems and responsibilities that Richards and Simmonds have to work with are very different. I think in a system like Lavi's we would see Richards putting up more points again. In a vacuum, the trade works fine because we got back a lot of talent, but this team still has trouble doing things that Richards is very good at, like playing defense. Not to mention that we've been waiting for the younger players we got to develop while we've been in "win now" mode with some older defensemen. It just didn't make sense.

I agree with the rest though. I was a supporter of Holmgren for awhile, but the last few years he's lost me.

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10-06-2013, 12:42 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Yeah, no. The defense did not help but Bryz was totally inept. Emery and Mason have already looked far better with just as bad of a defense in front of them

Bryz cashed in and put no work ethic in. He's a lazy player and is only good if he's on an elite defensive team
Disagree with that. They have looked alright overall, but they've still given up 4 and 3 goals respectively. Obvious SSS but if that kind of thing continues then we're talking about them just like we talked about Bryz, except their save %s are currently in the .880s.

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10-06-2013, 12:44 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Also, Laviolette isn't a bad coach. Like others have said, he just was kind of put in a pretty easy position to fail by the GM and president. That's different from being a bad coach flat-out.
bad coaches don't win Stanley Cups

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10-06-2013, 12:44 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Disagree with that. They have looked alright overall, but they've still given up 4 and 3 goals respectively. Obvious SSS but if that kind of thing continues then we're talking about them just like we talked about Bryz, except their save %s are currently in the .880s.
They also have not given up any weak goals. I'm not saying either will be great for us, but they combined make about half of what Bryz made. So if you are getting comparable performance for that much less of a price tag, how can we say that Bryz was some sort of scapegoat?

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10-06-2013, 12:45 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Disagree with that. They have looked alright overall, but they've still given up 4 and 3 goals respectively. Obvious SSS but if that kind of thing continues then we're talking about them just like we talked about Bryz, except their save %s are currently in the .880s.
well, at least Emery & Mason arent getting paid over $5m each to put up Bryz numbers

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10-06-2013, 12:48 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
They also have not given up any weak goals. I'm not saying either will be great for us, but they combined make about half of what Bryz made. So if you are getting comparable performance for that much less of a price tag, how can we say that Bryz was some sort of scapegoat?
Too early to say if their performance will be comparable, but I agree about the salary. Obviously I'd take the lower price tag if the end result is the same. Bryz didn't give up many weak goals either, he just didn't make enough big saves.

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10-06-2013, 12:50 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Disagree with that. They have looked alright overall, but they've still given up 4 and 3 goals respectively. Obvious SSS but if that kind of thing continues then we're talking about them just like we talked about Bryz, except their save %s are currently in the .880s.
You can't just say ''they've still given up 4 and 3 goals'' and not look at the quality of those goals. Not one goal scored against them this far has been weak or bad.

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