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Holmgren Deserves to get Fired

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Old
10-06-2013, 12:51 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Too early to say if their performance will be comparable, but I agree about the salary. Obviously I'd take the lower price tag if the end result is the same. Bryz didn't give up many weak goals either, he just didn't make enough big saves.
Ugh yes he did. Did you not watch him?

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10-06-2013, 12:58 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Ugh yes he did. Did you not watch him?
Uh, no he didn't, did you not watch him? A ton of his criticism was based on him being bad on breakaways, which are almost by definition always a great scoring chance. Most of the goals he gave up were on tips, odd man rushes, and shots in or around the slot.

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10-06-2013, 01:09 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Uh, no he didn't, did you not watch him? A ton of his criticism was based on him being bad on breakaways, which are almost by definition always a great scoring chance. Most of the goals he gave up were on tips, odd man rushes, and shots in or around the slot.
No. A ton of his criticism wasn't about breakaways. It was about how he was constantly failing to be square to the shooter. His effort level was low. If he was screened, he would sit there behind it making barely any attempt to see the puck. He constantly failed to track the puck. He got beaten on routine shots from low-quality areas all the damned time. He rarely fought for saves. He very rarely bailed out his defense, which made them look worse than they actually were. There were rumors of disinterest and locker room issues. The breakaways were just the tip of the ****berg that was Bryzgalov's performance in Philly.

Hell, all you had to do was watch opposing goalies make saves Bryz didn't all the damned time to realize he wasn't measuring up. Shots from the slot and from one timers should not have been going in as often as they did. Every team creates those opportunities. Most goalies stop them at a higher rate than Bryz did.

If breakaways and being hung out to dry by his defense were his chief issues, he would be doing better than a try-out agreement with the ECHL. You don't think any of the GMs in the pro-hockey world would have seen what you're saying besides you?

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10-06-2013, 01:37 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No. A ton of his criticism wasn't about breakaways. It was about how he was constantly failing to be square to the shooter. His effort level was low. If he was screened, he would sit there behind it making barely any attempt to see the puck. He constantly failed to track the puck. He got beaten on routine shots from low-quality areas all the damned time. He rarely fought for saves. He very rarely bailed out his defense, which made them look worse than they actually were. There were rumors of disinterest and locker room issues. The breakaways were just the tip of the ****berg that was Bryzgalov's performance in Philly.

Hell, all you had to do was watch opposing goalies make saves Bryz didn't all the damned time to realize he wasn't measuring up. Shots from the slot and from one timers should not have been going in as often as they did. Every team creates those opportunities. Most goalies stop them at a higher rate than Bryz did.

If breakaways and being hung out to dry by his defense were his chief issues, he would be doing better than a try-out agreement with the ECHL. You don't think any of the GMs in the pro-hockey world would have seen what you're saying besides you?
You forgot to mention he would duck on shots...glaring omission

Bryz had a crappy attitude most of all while here. As was always stated..he may have not been the main problem (as we are still witnessing) but he sure wasn't the solution. He was an average goalie at best and that is not what we paid him to be.

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10-06-2013, 01:52 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No. A ton of his criticism wasn't about breakaways. It was about how he was constantly failing to be square to the shooter. His effort level was low. If he was screened, he would sit there behind it making barely any attempt to see the puck. He constantly failed to track the puck. He got beaten on routine shots from low-quality areas all the damned time. He rarely fought for saves. He very rarely bailed out his defense, which made them look worse than they actually were. There were rumors of disinterest and locker room issues. The breakaways were just the tip of the ****berg that was Bryzgalov's performance in Philly.

Hell, all you had to do was watch opposing goalies make saves Bryz didn't all the damned time to realize he wasn't measuring up. Shots from the slot and from one timers should not have been going in as often as they did. Every team creates those opportunities. Most goalies stop them at a higher rate than Bryz did.

If breakaways and being hung out to dry by his defense were his chief issues, he would be doing better than a try-out agreement with the ECHL. You don't think any of the GMs in the pro-hockey world would have seen what you're saying besides you?
A ton of it was about breakaways. I didn't say most of it was, or say it was one of the top two or three things even. But the amount that he was criticized for breakaways was more than any goalie that I ever remember playing here, so in that sense, yes a ton of it was.

I'm not even saying that Bryz was unfairly criticized- he deserved criticism for not making more big saves, but that's where most of it came from. The locker room issues are a separate issue that doesn't have any bearing on whether we should be happy with what's happened so far this year with our goalies. Most of the things you addressed in your post- the screened shots he didn't fight to see enough, one timers and shots from high quality areas that he didn't stop enough, those still aren't bad goals. The sentence about getting beat from low quality areas on routine shots all the time is the only one I disagree with. Shots he could see, that weren't right in front of the net, weren't the problem.

To bring this back to our current goalies, if the script from the first 2 games replays itself, people will eventually stop saying that they're doing fine. That was my original point.

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10-06-2013, 01:54 PM
  #56
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I'm not really defending Bryz that much, but....

why can we fans see the existing problems on this team, yet the management denies they have a problem.
Laviolette will be the next to pay the price, which may be good for him in that he'll be able to spend more time getting ready for the Olympic team this winter. He'll be hired after the Olympics by a struggling team, and he'll turn his next team around.
The Flyers will probably promote Berube or bring back Terry Murray, both will be another horrendous mistake.
The Flyers organization went for the pricey goalie with Bryzgalov, and we know how that turned out.
Now they've gone back to the bargain rack for their net minders, ( and I actually like Emery and Mason), but their defense in front of the goalie is completely wretched.
The opposition attacks the Flyers at their blue line, and the Flyers defense surrenders each time.
It's just like each time the Flyers have a penalty shot, or whenever they're involved in a shoot out situation, they always try for the five hole.
EVERY TEAM IN THE ENTIRE NHL, knows the Flyers try for the five hole shot! It's as predictable as sunshine in Southern California. The Flyers are predictable and seem to be easy to beat.
Will Holmgren be fired? Probably not. Snider has faith in his abilities, even though the fans know more about what is troubling this team.

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10-06-2013, 01:56 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
A ton of it was about breakaways. I didn't say most of it was, or say it was one of the top two or three things even. But the amount that he was criticized for breakaways was more than any goalie that I ever remember playing here, so in that sense, yes a ton of it was.

I'm not even saying that Bryz was unfairly criticized- he deserved criticism for not making more big saves, but that's where most of it came from. The locker room issues are a separate issue that doesn't have any bearing on whether we should be happy with what's happened so far this year with our goalies. Most of the things you addressed in your post- the screened shots he didn't fight to see enough, one timers and shots from high quality areas that he didn't stop enough, those still aren't bad goals. The sentence about getting beat from low quality areas on routine shots all the time is the only one I disagree with. Shots he could see, that weren't right in front of the net, weren't the problem.

To bring this back to our current goalies, if the script from the first 2 games replays itself, people will eventually stop saying that they're doing fine. That was my original point.
I don't think it will be nearly as bad as Bryz. Most level headed people know what we were getting into with Mason & Emery. They're paid accordingly to their talents. Bryz on the other hand wasn't & I don't think many were thinking he would self destruct like that.

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10-06-2013, 02:27 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
too early to say if their performance will be comparable, but i agree about the salary. Obviously i'd take the lower price tag if the end result is the same. bryz didn't give up many weak goals either, he just didn't make enough big saves.
what

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10-06-2013, 06:30 PM
  #59
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Fire Holmgren and Lavy. Let Hextall pick his coach. Trade Meszaros and find a 3rd line winger

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10-06-2013, 06:33 PM
  #60
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What coaches are even available?

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10-06-2013, 06:36 PM
  #61
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What coaches are even available?
who cares. Could it really get much worse?

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10-06-2013, 06:41 PM
  #62
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What coaches are even available?
Terry Murray is already in the organization. He got Kings teams with no more talent than this Flyers squad to the playoffs.

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10-06-2013, 06:56 PM
  #63
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Terry Murray is already in the organization. He got Kings teams with no more talent than this Flyers squad to the playoffs.
Personally, I'd rather go outside the organization with this.

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10-06-2013, 07:11 PM
  #64
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I would too, but in the offseason when there are more coaches to pick from. Might be a new GM by then.

Murray is just a stopgap to get these guys playing the right way.

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10-06-2013, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Fire Holmgren and Lavy. Let Hextall pick his coach. Trade Meszaros and find a 3rd line winger
I don't think we could trade Mezz even if we retained 90% of his salary.

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10-06-2013, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Fire Holmgren and Lavy. Let Hextall pick his coach. Trade Meszaros and find a 3rd line winger
Keep Hextall where he is. The next GM and coach should have 0 history with the orange and black.

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10-06-2013, 07:50 PM
  #67
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If you want a coach with no Philly ties - Jacques Martin.

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10-06-2013, 07:57 PM
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If you want a coach with no Philly ties - Jacques Martin.
He's with the Penguins right now, right?

I'd take him.

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10-06-2013, 08:24 PM
  #69
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Maybe have Hexy step in and coach um. Just throwing that out there.

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10-06-2013, 08:31 PM
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Look at this everyone flmed me bcuz I said trading Mike Richards was a horrible idea along with Jeff Carter only good thing out of either of those trades is vorachek but b.schenn is not good why trade for potential when you already have talent!!! He needs to go and I liked the jvr trade honestly but we over paid for arguably one of the greatest defensman

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10-06-2013, 08:44 PM
  #71
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Look at this everyone flmed me bcuz I said trading Mike Richards was a horrible idea along with Jeff Carter only good thing out of either of those trades is vorachek but b.schenn is not good why trade for potential when you already have talent!!! He needs to go and I liked the jvr trade honestly but we over paid for arguably one of the greatest defensman
Interestingly enough Schenn had exactly the same PPG with almost exactly the same minutes as JVR did before he was traded. Now JVR will probably hit 60 this year. Players cannot break out with limited minutes.

Schenn was 9th in PPG in the whole league for players playing under 16 minutes last year.

If we trade him, much like with JVR, he instantly goes from 40-45 point to 55-60 points due to the minutes he will play on a team with less offensive depth.

Simmonds has more points and PPG than Richards since the trade, Voracek more points and PPG than Carter. I know the roles are very different, but still, we got them, plus Couts who was arguably the best pure defensive forward in the NHL last season, Schenn who paced for 46 points last year, Cousins who looked great in training camp, and Grossmann as a by-product.

We got pretty good value.

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10-06-2013, 09:06 PM
  #72
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The Carter and Richards trades were necessary for a host of reasons...we got good returns and I thought Holmgren was on the right path. Then he followed it up with a host of stupidities like Bryz, trading Bob, telling his coach to change his style after the NJ debacle instead of firing him, having a bad offseason by going after Parise and Suter and losing Carle and Jagr b/c he had no plan B, and now keeping Lavi like he did Stevens way too long instead of canning his butt this offseason when there were good coaching candidates looking for jobs. In essence, since the Carter and Richards trade he hasn't taken the necessary steps to put this team on the continued right path..we have regressed.

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10-06-2013, 09:14 PM
  #73
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JVR will be a perennial 35-40 goal scorer, and if the NHL achieves their goal of get the GPG average up to 6.5-7, he could be a 50 goal scorer.
Literally, please just stop. Posts like this are so ridiculous

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10-06-2013, 09:16 PM
  #74
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I just have a feeling he's going to make a panic move soon. Trading either of the Schenn or Couturier might just push me over the edge. I'd probably cancel my season tickets.

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10-06-2013, 09:20 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
The Carter and Richards trades were necessary for a host of reasons...we got good returns and I thought Holmgren was on the right path. Then he followed it up with a host of stupidities like Bryz, trading Bob, telling his coach to change his style after the NJ debacle instead of firing him, having a bad offseason by going after Parise and Suter and losing Carle and Jagr b/c he had no plan B, and now keeping Lavi like he did Stevens way too long instead of canning his butt this offseason when there were good coaching candidates looking for jobs. In essence, since the Carter and Richards trade he hasn't taken the necessary steps to put this team on the continued right path..we have regressed.
i think you are overreacting.

lavi needs to go, it was a mistake to keep him this year. our forwards play so little defense.

our cup run was expensive (organization depth wise), and we have been paying for it. the last 2 years have been decent with the moves homer has made. say what you want about dealing bob, but we got a good haul for him.

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