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Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 2 Pens vs. Sabres

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Old
10-06-2013, 04:50 PM
  #276
vabm8
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. I don't think Shero threatens.

2. The Penner comparisons have to stop. First Elmer's buffet work ethic compared to Penner. Now this with Fleury.
1. Yeah, I think it's more he tells you what will happen if you don't do what he wants in a satisfactory manner. "Would you like to be on this team?... Then you should do []."

2. It's not Elmer's fault that his legs have trouble supporting him for extended periods of time, you add in the weight of his plate and he has no chance. It's not fair.

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10-06-2013, 05:12 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
A bit off topic, but I wonder if Zatkoff will get the start against Florida on Friday.
I'd say it's likely. Florida looked terrible against St Louis last night, so one has to believe Tampa is a bigger threat.

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10-06-2013, 05:18 PM
  #278
SHOOTANDSCORE
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Cole, I want the Brett Sutter I saw in Carolina. His job, last year he was there, was covering Geno. And, he absolutely blanketed him. Getting outmuscled didn't matter. He did anything and everything within and a little outside the rules to get the job done. Played with absolute heart and tenacity. THAT really is what has been missing from his game since he got to Pittsburgh. I don't expect Staal. I think the same thing goes for you. But, I think both of us expect a little of his dad in his game.

Expecting him to bring the tenacity to his game that he showed in Carolina and judging him for not doing that is NOT scapegoating him.
I wonder if it has anything to do with being unhappy about being traded. I recall seeing somewhere that he wasn't thrilled last year. Maybe he aspired to 2nd line duties. Either one of those points to maturity issues.

Maybe he needs a little competition to fire him up.

And no, I don't mean Adams for 3C

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10-06-2013, 05:35 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by SHOOTANDSCORE View Post
I wonder if it has anything to do with being unhappy about being traded. I recall seeing somewhere that he wasn't thrilled last year. Maybe he aspired to 2nd line duties. Either one of those points to maturity issues.

Maybe he needs a little competition to fire him up.

And no, I don't mean Adams for 3C
I remember reading that he was unhappy, but I doubt that it's because of not getting to play on a 2nd line. I don't care how it happens, but someone needs to light a fire under him, get him to bring his dad's snarl back to his game.

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10-06-2013, 06:38 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Dupuis is, simply put, better than everyone else in that bottom 6. He would upgrade the third line no matter which of them he replaced.
If Duper was making 1M less, on a 3 year deal, and on the 3rd line he's be everyone's favorite player.

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Old
10-06-2013, 06:41 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
If Duper was making 1M less, on a 3 year deal, and on the 3rd line he's be everyone's favorite player.
truth

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Old
10-06-2013, 07:01 PM
  #282
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Why do people keep calling him Brett Sutter? That's not funny.

My (healthy) lineup would be:

Kunitz - Sid - Beauner
Jokes - Malkin - Neal
Jeffrey - Sutter - Duper
Adams - Vitale - Pikobachu

Orpik - Martin
Scuds - Letang
(Maatta) Despres - Bortuzzo

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Old
10-06-2013, 07:09 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
And yet our defense wasn't why we lost that series, it was our offense.

For all the *****ing about our D and goaltending, we lost in the ECF last year because of our offense. When people talk about the Pens, it's always "sure they'll score, but can MAF / their D hold its' own?"

I have no idea why that's never brought up.
When you count the long OT in game 3, the Bruins scored a total of 3 goals in 9 periods of hockey on their home ice. Vokoun never had to be spectacular, just solid, which means both he and the D did their job. That's why I'm kind of puzzled by the Nisky hate for being "So terrible in the playoffs"

A sweep is a sweep any way you look at it, but when you set aside the game 2 cluster ****, it was an even series. The offense for once let the team down badly.

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Old
10-06-2013, 09:36 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
1. What units would you think? Sid-Kunitz-Duper-Martin/Jokinen-Letang and Geno-Neal-Beauner-Jokinen/Martin-Nisky (assuming he's here), with who gets Martin or Jokinen depending upon which unit goes out first?

2. I will say this whole 'one will get more time is a straw man'. Make the rule simple: Fresher unit goes out first. Sid or Geno is first man on from his unit when the change starts. I think you'll see the minutes work out pretty equally (more equally than the ES minutes do ).

3. I do like the suggestion that two units may inadvertently yet productively fuel competition between Sid and Geno.

4. Will Sid and Geno play rocks, paper, scissors to determine who does NOT end up with Letang?
I don't care what the moving parts are. Sid and Geno obviously man their own. We have more than enough pieces to find two units that work.

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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Expecting him to bring the tenacity to his game that he showed in Carolina and judging him for not doing that is NOT scapegoating him.
It's a lot more than saying he doesn't play with tenacity. I'm not really sure he doesn't play with tenacity is the thing. He's just not one of those guys who goes and runs guys through the boards or anything like that. I see him fighting for position in the offensive zone, coming back hard creating back pressure on the back check, and he mans up well in the defensive zone.

I'd like to see him play with a little more piss and vinegar, but he is an effective player for his role. I think the way he plays is surprising mainly because of the bloodlines he comes from.

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Old
10-06-2013, 09:48 PM
  #285
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IMO Sutter loves it here. A year later and he's settled in and enjoys it.
I think what may get lost with him is being with such an offensive team, the hard nosed defensive play may get lost a little bit.

He also hasn't really had any hard nosed defensive minded wingers to help him out. TK, Morrow, JJ and now BB and Kobasew who isn't shabby defensively but he wants to get to the O-Zone in a hurry.

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Old
10-06-2013, 10:26 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
IMO Sutter loves it here. A year later and he's settled in and enjoys it.
I think what may get lost with him is being with such an offensive team, the hard nosed defensive play may get lost a little bit.

He also hasn't really had any hard nosed defensive minded wingers to help him out. TK, Morrow, JJ and now BB and Kobasew who isn't shabby defensively but he wants to get to the O-Zone in a hurry.
I do not get the Sutter hate. He is a kid, 24 years old right? Defensive wiz, and can eventually grow some sandpaper to his game. But even if he does not, he still has great value, solely in that role, 3rd line center. Once fully developed he should be almost ideal in that role, and should sign very reasonably.

We certainly do not need scoring for him, we lap almost every other team each year handily outscoring the lot of them.

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Old
10-06-2013, 10:32 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I do not get the Sutter hate. He is a kid, 24 years old right? Defensive wiz, and can eventually grow some sandpaper to his game. But even if he does not, he still has great value, solely in that role, 3rd line center. Once fully developed he should be almost ideal in that role, and should sign very reasonably.

We certainly do not need scoring for him, we lap almost every other team each year handily outscoring the lot of them.
I'll challenge the defensive wiz notion. It really fell apart late last season. He's young, yes. But right now I cannot tell you what his role is here. Guys like Talbot had more of a role here than Sutter does right now.

I'm not hating him, but I'm holding his standard a little higher. I watched his d-game look average late last season. I see him get out muscled out of everything. If he stays this way, he serves no purpose to the team.

But please... take what i'm saying with a grain of salt. I'm just bringing the discussion up. I love the kid's game. It just looks lost right now. I feel that HE feels he has no identity to this team. He needs to take it over.

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Old
10-06-2013, 10:37 PM
  #288
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I don't know how Sutter has been performing for you guys though from reading your GDT's I know he hasn't been up to snuff, but the bottom-line with him is if he's not being a defensive ace or rock then he's near worthless as a player or at least his main appeal is gone.

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10-06-2013, 10:43 PM
  #289
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It's something very subtle... And I'm sure guys like Cole will notice this with me, I love how BB goes up the ice. As soon as the puck touches his stick he isn't looking down he is tall and wide stepping for the sprint step and trying for space. And he knows of he has an inch, to many "shooters" think they need a foot, he knows he needs an inch and he steps for it and shoots for it. I love it. He is the winger prospect we've been waiting for... And I only say prospect out of time in/track record. This dude is probably the real deal.

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10-06-2013, 10:50 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I'll challenge the defensive wiz notion. It really fell apart late last season. He's young, yes. But right now I cannot tell you what his role is here. Guys like Talbot had more of a role here than Sutter does right now.

I'm not hating him, but I'm holding his standard a little higher. I watched his d-game look average late last season. I see him get out muscled out of everything. If he stays this way, he serves no purpose to the team.

But please... take what i'm saying with a grain of salt. I'm just bringing the discussion up. I love the kid's game. It just looks lost right now. I feel that HE feels he has no identity to this team. He needs to take it over.
Pretty much my thoughts on Sutter also. For all the talk about his defensive play given by Carolina fans and what I saw last year, I was pretty disappointed. I was at least hoping him to be somewhat like Dave Bolland with his D and offensive contributions.

I think the biggest issue I have with his game is the lack of intensity. Unfortunately that's not something you can fix with coaching either. He's a really steady player but when the game counts come playoff time the guys that are often times the difference makers on winning teams are the guys that can raise their intensity level.

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10-06-2013, 11:47 PM
  #291
KIRK
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I don't care what the moving parts are. Sid and Geno obviously man their own. We have more than enough pieces to find two units that work.



It's a lot more than saying he doesn't play with tenacity. I'm not really sure he doesn't play with tenacity is the thing. He's just not one of those guys who goes and runs guys through the boards or anything like that. I see him fighting for position in the offensive zone, coming back hard creating back pressure on the back check, and he mans up well in the defensive zone.

I'd like to see him play with a little more piss and vinegar, but he is an effective player for his role. I think the way he plays is surprising mainly because of the bloodlines he comes from.
Better description. I think ultimately that we're looking for the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Pretty much my thoughts on Sutter also. For all the talk about his defensive play given by Carolina fans and what I saw last year, I was pretty disappointed. I was at least hoping him to be somewhat like Dave Bolland with his D and offensive contributions.

I think the biggest issue I have with his game is the lack of intensity. Unfortunately that's not something you can fix with coaching either. He's a really steady player but when the game counts come playoff time the guys that are often times the difference makers on winning teams are the guys that can raise their intensity level.
You know, in a way, he's Dominic Moore on this team. But for the circumstances according to which he arrived and the last name, he's kind of non-descript as a 3C. Doesn't make him bad. Just means, as you and Cole suggest, there's nothing that screams 'we absolutely need this kid'.

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Old
10-07-2013, 01:42 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Pretty much my thoughts on Sutter also. For all the talk about his defensive play given by Carolina fans and what I saw last year, I was pretty disappointed. I was at least hoping him to be somewhat like Dave Bolland with his D and offensive contributions.

I think the biggest issue I have with his game is the lack of intensity. Unfortunately that's not something you can fix with coaching either. He's a really steady player but when the game counts come playoff time the guys that are often times the difference makers on winning teams are the guys that can raise their intensity level.
The bolded thing is the part that bothers me the most about his game. I have no real issue with his offensive game (decent enough 3rd line offense) or his defensive game (positional game), but I don't like just how ... non-aggressive he is. He lacks bite.

If he played with the typical Sutter snarl, I wouldn't complain about the rest of his game at all.

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Old
10-07-2013, 04:10 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I'll challenge the defensive wiz notion. It really fell apart late last season. He's young, yes. But right now I cannot tell you what his role is here. Guys like Talbot had more of a role here than Sutter does right now.

I'm not hating him, but I'm holding his standard a little higher. I watched his d-game look average late last season. I see him get out muscled out of everything. If he stays this way, he serves no purpose to the team.

But please... take what i'm saying with a grain of salt. I'm just bringing the discussion up. I love the kid's game. It just looks lost right now. I feel that HE feels he has no identity to this team. He needs to take it over.
The Sutter line has actually looked pretty solid so far this year imo. They aren't the defensive whiz line that CSK were but they are generating offense for us. They're a bit of a weird third line in that I think their identity is going to be more chipping in a few goals than being a shutdown line. When our roster is fully healthy though you have three 15-20 goal guys on that third line in Bennett, Sutter, and Kobasew. Since I don't ever see them being a prime shutdown line I think their identity should be taking some of the load off of our top two lines and providing offensive support that maybe we haven't gotten from our third line in recent years.

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10-07-2013, 05:02 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
The Sutter line has actually looked pretty solid so far this year imo. They aren't the defensive whiz line that CSK were but they are generating offense for us. They're a bit of a weird third line in that I think their identity is going to be more chipping in a few goals than being a shutdown line. When our roster is fully healthy though you have three 15-20 goal guys on that third line in Bennett, Sutter, and Kobasew. Since I don't ever see them being a prime shutdown line I think their identity should be taking some of the load off of our top two lines and providing offensive support that maybe we haven't gotten from our third line in recent years.
I agree with this. As long as KCD is a thing, it should be our top shutdown line. Sutter should be the second defensive line and be expected to chip in more offense than that line did last year. So far, its doing just that.

If we ever decide that Dupuis doesn't need to be glued to Crosby, Sutter and Dupuis would make up one of the best defensive lines in the league.

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10-07-2013, 06:36 PM
  #295
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I agree with this. As long as KCD is a thing, it should be our top shutdown line. Sutter should be the second defensive line and be expected to chip in more offense than that line did last year. So far, its doing just that.

If we ever decide that Dupuis doesn't need to be glued to Crosby, Sutter and Dupuis would make up one of the best defensive lines in the league.

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