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10-03-2013, 04:45 PM
  #551
Tawnos
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The statistical evidence for Zuccarello being "better 5v5" than Callahan is pretty flimsy. You pretty much have to throw any of last year's numbers out, because Callahan was not playing at all like himself. We all saw that there was something different. He hurt his shoulder pretty early on and even he himself said it affected the types of choices he was making. That leaves the 10 games in 11-12 and the 42 games in 10-11. In those two seasons, Callahan played 136 games to Zuccarello's 52. We have more than 2.5 times the entries for Cally than we do for Zuccarello. As far as I'm concerned, it's beyond impossible to make a judgment using statistical analysis with that kind of discrepancy.

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10-03-2013, 04:45 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Callahan is an established 60-point guy. Zuccarello is not better than him. Jeez.
Established 60-point guy? When has he ever scored 60 points?

And I'm solely talking about 5v5 play here. Callahan is likely the best net-front guy in the league on the PP, as well as a good PK:er.

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10-03-2013, 04:46 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Callahan is an established 60-point guy. Zuccarello is not better than him. Jeez.
I hate to be that guy, but Callahan has never had a 60-point season. Established 25+ goal player, on the other hand? Sure.

Also, no, Zuccarello isn't currently "better" than Callahan, but I'd say he's been more effective 5-on-5 in his time here than Callahan has been. It's quite a small sample size, though.

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10-03-2013, 04:49 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
Established 60-point guy? When has he ever scored 60 points?

And I'm solely talking about 5v5 play here. Callahan is likely the best net-front guy in the league on the PP, as well as a good PK:er.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
I hate to be that guy, but Callahan has never had a 60-point season. Established 25+ goal player, on the other hand? Sure.

Also, no, Zuccarello isn't currently "better" than Callahan, but I'd say he's been more effective 5-on-5 in his time here than Callahan has been. It's quite a small sample size, though.
I deserved to be called out on that. I was basing it off his ppg average over the past 3 seasons: .80, .71 and .69. Injuries have kept him from hitting the 60 point mark. Everyone likes to look at Zucarello's ppg as a way of showing how good he is, and he has played much less games than Callahan.

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10-03-2013, 04:50 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The statistical evidence for Zuccarello being "better 5v5" than Callahan is pretty flimsy. You pretty much have to throw any of last year's numbers out, because Callahan was not playing at all like himself. We all saw that there was something different. He hurt his shoulder pretty early on and even he himself said it affected the types of choices he was making. That leaves the 10 games in 11-12 and the 42 games in 10-11. In those two seasons, Callahan played 136 games to Zuccarello's 52. We have more than 2.5 times the entries for Cally than we do for Zuccarello. As far as I'm concerned, it's beyond impossible to make a judgment using statistical analysis with that kind of discrepancy.
Yes we do have a lot smaller sample for Zuccarello, but he has consistently shown a significant ability to push the play and outchance the opposition.

Callahan has OTOH been quite mediocre 5v5 barely making a top-6 level impact. He more than makes up for it with his special teams contributions, but that doesn't mean we should shoehorn him into a top-6 role 5v5. The only season he really played at a top-6 level 5v5 was 2010-11, he hasn't really since.

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10-03-2013, 04:56 PM
  #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I deserved to be called out on that. I was basing it off his ppg average over the past 3 seasons: .80, .71 and .69. Injuries have kept him from hitting the 60 point mark. Everyone likes to look at Zucarello's ppg as a way of showing how good he is, and he has played much less games than Callahan.
I haven't mentioned Zuccarello's PPG once.

In fact I think it is on the low side compared to his other contributions. So far I think it is small sample size variance that has pushed it down, he had a very low IPP (percentage of goals scored with him on the ice that he had a point on) last season as did RNH and I think it is the small sample playing tricks on us. But if he continues at the same pace I'm going to start questioning him more.

Still if he can continue putting up a 60% 5v5 Corsi and a 60+ GF%, then he is a top-6 player on any team in the league regardless of points scored. Though he should score more by defalut if he can keep that up.

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10-03-2013, 04:59 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
Maybe it is just me, but I prefer the player with whom we score more goals, spend more time in the offensive zone, create more chances, allow fewer chances against, concede less goals. But that's just me.
If Zuccarello played the type of matchups Callahan does every night, he'd be eaten alive. Brutally exposed.

I'd prefer Zuccarello continue to play his sheltered minutes and provide more to your painfully slim sample size that led you to such a poor opinion...but thats just me.

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10-03-2013, 05:06 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If Zuccarello played the type of matchups Callahan does every night, he'd be eaten alive. Brutally exposed.

I'd prefer Zuccarello continue to play his sheltered minutes and provide more to your painfully slim sample size that led you to such a poor opinion...but thats just me.
Zuccarello did have easier matchups than Callahan, but not nearly enough to explain the discrepancy in on-ice impact.

Callahan didn't even get the toughest matchups of our forwards either, those went to Hagelin and Stepan.

Anyway, I'm done debating this. I've stated my stance, I'm sticking by it, but I know I won't convince anyone by going on further about this. We all have our opinions and that's fine.

E: Just a final amendment, and clarification of my position. I think Zuccarello has been the better 5v5 player so far, and believe he will continue to be so. But the small sample size does make it unclear whether it will be so. We will just have to see how the season develops.

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10-03-2013, 07:10 PM
  #559
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Cally>Zucc in close to every way

Zucc needs better sample sizes

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10-03-2013, 07:28 PM
  #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I deserved to be called out on that. I was basing it off his ppg average over the past 3 seasons: .80, .71 and .69. Injuries have kept him from hitting the 60 point mark. Everyone likes to look at Zucarello's ppg as a way of showing how good he is, and he has played much less games than Callahan.
If Callahan played a less injury-prone style of playing, he wouldn't be as effective. You HAVE to account for injuries with players like him. PPG never tells the whole story.

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10-06-2013, 03:55 PM
  #561
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Miller down and Callahan back. Any clue when Hagelin gets back? Also, consider these lines when the team is at full strength..

Nash-Stepan-Callahan
Pouliot-Brassard-Zucarello
Hagelin-Richards-Fast
Boyle-Moore-Pyatt/Dorsett/Asham

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10-06-2013, 04:18 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by petejudge View Post
Miller down and Callahan back. Any clue when Hagelin gets back? Also, consider these lines when the team is at full strength..

Nash-Stepan-Callahan
Pouliot-Brassard-Zucarello
Hagelin-Richards-Fast
Boyle-Moore-Pyatt/Dorsett/Asham
Nash-Stepan-Callahan has been tried and was a massive failure. If Hagelin is available he needs to play with Nash, the difference of Nash with and without Hagelin was night and day last season.

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10-06-2013, 04:30 PM
  #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petejudge View Post
Miller down and Callahan back. Any clue when Hagelin gets back? Also, consider these lines when the team is at full strength..

Nash-Stepan-Callahan
Pouliot-Brassard-Zucarello
Hagelin-Richards-Fast
Boyle-Moore-Pyatt/Dorsett/Asham
Hagelin has to miss 10 games or 24 days(whichever comes first) in order to come back bc he was placed on IR. I'm pretty sure he'll be good to go after that

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10-07-2013, 07:50 AM
  #564
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Callahan should help even the lines out a little bit. Despite the fact that hes been skating forever, he hasn't been in games so he should be eased in, perhaps the third line to start?

Richards-Stepan-Nash
Pouilot-Brassard-Zuccarello
Pyatt-Boyle-Callahan
Asham-Moore-Dorsett

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Del Zotto
Moore-Stralman

Hagelin can't come back soon enough. They need his speed. I'm not enamored with the top two lines, even though Brassards line has played alright. With Step and Cally shaking off the rust things could get ugly early. I don't sense a ton of confidence from the coach or the players to be honest - which is disturbing.

I'll tell you what - I don't think I've ever put this much importance on winning games this early in the season. Something tells me they need to win a game as early as possible to get their confidence otherwise its very possible they could quickly slip to 0-3, 0-5, 1-7, etc... I think they need to split the next two, at the very least.

Hopefully win #1 comes tonight, especially when Henrik is going tonight and prob not tomorrow.

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10-07-2013, 08:20 AM
  #565
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I still don't see the infatuation with the Pouliot-Brassard-Zucarello combo.

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10-07-2013, 08:28 AM
  #566
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I still don't see the infatuation with the Pouliot-Brassard-Zucarello combo.
They were good in the pre-season and created the best scoring chances against Phoenix. But neither top-6 line worked particularly well in that game. I'd give the combos a game or two before scrapping them.

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10-07-2013, 09:03 AM
  #567
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I still don't see the infatuation with the Pouliot-Brassard-Zucarello combo.
They play prettier. Too bad the NHL doesn't award style points.

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10-07-2013, 09:17 AM
  #568
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
They play prettier. Too bad the NHL doesn't award style points.
Also they were the only line really able to sustain any offensive zone pressure in preseason and vs phx. Now it didn't result in anything so obviously if they keep that up, something has to change. As I mentioned in the other thread I'm all for getting Cally on that line asap.

Now when Hagelin comes back and one of the kids make it, you could see something like Hagelin-Stepan-Nash,Kreider/Fast-Richards-Callahan, Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello, Boyle - Moore - Dorsett.

I think the PBZ-line could be considered a very decent third line.

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10-07-2013, 09:22 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by SixGoalieSystem View Post
Also they were the only line really able to sustain any offensive zone pressure in preseason and vs phx. Now it didn't result in anything so obviously if they keep that up, something has to change. As I mentioned in the other thread I'm all for getting Cally on that line asap.

Now when Hagelin comes back and one of the kids make it, you could see something like Hagelin-Stepan-Nash,Kreider/Fast-Richards-Callahan, Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello, Boyle - Moore - Dorsett.

I think the PBZ-line could be considered a very decent third line.
The Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello line contains 3 offensively gifted guys who have never produced at an above average rate in the NHL and have, by and large, been disappointments. Maybe that changes, but I'd be inclined to look at the long and checkered track records, especially for Pouliot and Brassard. I expect them to buzz around, pot a couple of goals, but not produce enough consistently. Not to mention they're an incredibly soft bunch -- I think the line gets broken up the first time they get punched in the mouth by the opposition.

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10-07-2013, 09:38 AM
  #570
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I have a feeling Pouliot-Brassard-Zucc will be broken up soon enough. I don't think AV trusts Pouliot, he received less even strength ice time than Brassard, Zucc, and even Pyatt (which is another concern altogether). Taking an ill-timed penalty to start the game probably didn't do Pouliot any favors.

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10-07-2013, 09:40 AM
  #571
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The Pouliot-Brassard-Zuccarello line contains 3 offensively gifted guys who have never produced at an above average rate in the NHL and have, by and large, been disappointments. Maybe that changes, but I'd be inclined to look at the long and checkered track records, especially for Pouliot and Brassard. I expect them to buzz around, pot a couple of goals, but not produce enough consistently. Not to mention they're an incredibly soft bunch -- I think the line gets broken up the first time they get punched in the mouth by the opposition.
I think that's a bit harsh. Brass never developed into the #1C CBJ was hoping for, but he had the disadvantage of playing for a crap team and often alongside terrible line mates. I think it held him back, and he's looked good since joining the Rangers. He needs to show consistency, but I think he can become a valuable member of the team.

We've talked about Zuccarello before and I think we're pretty much in agreement when it comes to his strengths and weaknesses. He has this year to show what he can do. i think he'll prove himself as a serviceable 2RW or a good 3RW (if AV elects to use the third line as a "scoring first" line).

Pouliot has been too inconsistent thus far in his career, and I guess you could call him a disappointment. He's looked pretty good in preseason however, so maybe he can make it work here?

As for the line being soft, I'm not sure about that. None of them are tough, but BP is a big guy and can throw a hit, Zuccarello is small, but plays with energy and throws his little body around. He created quite a few chances after an energetic forecheck last year and in the preseason. Brass doesn't bring a lot to the fights along the boards, but he has done his share of PK and can play defense. They're not a line you'd want to bring out there against Bostons bigger guys by any means, but if you're looking for a third scoring line with some hustle, they could do very well. I would want them to get most of their starts in the offensive zone, though.

We'll have to wait and see.


Last edited by SixGoalieSystem: 10-07-2013 at 09:49 AM.
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Old
10-07-2013, 09:46 AM
  #572
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I want the Hrivik, Miller, Fast line combo back. They were fun to watch in the preseason.

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10-07-2013, 09:48 AM
  #573
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I want the Hrivik, Miller, Fast line combo back. They were fun to watch in the preseason.
Against fellow minor leaguers.

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Old
10-07-2013, 09:49 AM
  #574
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Originally Posted by StaporNY View Post
I want the Hrivik, Miller, Fast line combo back. They were fun to watch in the preseason.
Would like to see:

Hrivik - Lindberg - Fast
Kreider - Miller - Kristo
Mashinter - Powe - Haley
Bourque/DuPont - Yogan - Kantor

Jean

That is a very interesting team IMO

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10-07-2013, 10:17 AM
  #575
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
Would like to see:

Hrivik - Lindberg - Fast
Kreider - Miller - Kristo
Mashinter - Powe - Haley
Bourque/DuPont - Yogan - Kantor

Jean

That is a very interesting team IMO
You can see that team... they're called the hartford wolfpack. (I'm pretty sure you were alluding to that, but I wanted to say it anyway...

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