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Old
11-30-2006, 09:13 AM
  #1
HockeyBasedNYC
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Ice Conditions

"Ice conditions getting dangerous" (getting? theyve been for a long time! - must be a slow day in the canadian media)

http://tsn.ca/tsn_talent/columnists/darren_dreger/

Quote:
At the moment there is no NHL policy regulating what's mandatory. Recommendations are made on a semi-regular basis and only become noteworthy come playoff time when ill equipped postseason buildings become home to air conditioning farms.

There is no disputing the entertainment value of the game is being jeopardized and far more importantly, the safety of the player.
I find it very disheartening that the league isnt taking more initiative here. As expected, all the NHL talks about is "growing the game" and then they change the rules and install all these silly penalties to make for a more exciting game that "features speed and skill", yet the playing surface in more than 3/4 of the facilities isn't up to par.

I wanna know how many people watch a Rangers game in particular and complain about the ice. I've been saying it for many years, though it's gotten better since the 80's and 90's.

The amount of pucks that jump and hop on MSG ice is a deservice to the game. You can only wonder what the "new game" would look like if MSG was like Edmonton ice in February, every night.

I know its very difficult, especially with so many other events going on, to get the ice perfect, but im surprised its never brought up by the players because it does become a bigger issue at times.

Let's hope they have better ice science installed in the new MSG whenever that is built - and for those who are the blueprint makers... make it happen! Dehumidify!

If you are gonna sign all these superstars and skilled skaters and puckhandlers, give them a better canvas to paint on!


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 11-30-2006 at 09:26 AM.
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11-30-2006, 10:45 AM
  #2
zacn
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I've been saying it for years now myself. It's especially bad at the garden where the constant scheduling of events requires the ice to be covered over constantly. Can't imagine that makes for consistent ice. It's not only the pucks that bounce and get stuck occassionally. Players go sliding into the boards on what should be rather routine sharp turns all the time.

I wonder if any teams have done what old baseball teams used to do and tweak the ice to their teams strengths. Especially if your team plays the trap, having slow bad ice might be a great way to further shut down opposition breakouts.

The league needs to step in.

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11-30-2006, 10:51 AM
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Fletch
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The league's been...

to busy trying to find gimmicks to increase scoring and increase attendance while not focusing on other issues. We've been talking about the Garden ice for as long as I can remember - and there are people in here who have talked about it for even longer. Forget about the slush that you had in Florida during the playoffs and other areas that make watching the playoffs tough to watch at times when it slows down the skaters as well as the puck.

I wonder if it's even possible to get the Garden ice like Edmonton's. With the railroad underneath and the heat's that's generated from there, and with all the events, if they spent all the money in the world, could it even come close?

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11-30-2006, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I wonder if it's even possible to get the Garden ice like Edmonton's. With the railroad underneath and the heat's that's generated from there, and with all the events, if they spent all the money in the world, could it even come close?
If they spent the money? Yes. Definitely. The ice is on the sixth floor or something so I don't think the heat from the train is the issue. The problem is that the Rangers aren't MSGs biggest concern. They'd probably put their money into a new antiglare paint technology for the Knicks court before they even bought new blades for the zamboni.

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11-30-2006, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zacn View Post
If they spent the money? Yes. Definitely. The ice is on the sixth floor or something so I don't think the heat from the train is the issue. The problem is that the Rangers aren't MSGs biggest concern. They'd probably put their money into a new antiglare paint technology for the Knicks court before they even bought new blades for the zamboni.

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11-30-2006, 03:26 PM
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Rexall Place in Edmonton isn't a multi-purpose arena.It serves one master-the Oilers

The ice in the Air Canada Centre in Toronto is just like the ice at the Garden because the ACC has the Raptors,concerts and other events

The issue of the ice has always been a topic and it's actually gotten better than it used to be at the Garden

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11-30-2006, 03:45 PM
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HockeyBasedNYC
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It has gotten better, but not spectacular by any means.

Remember in the 80's and 90's when you could see the 2 black marks in the high slot - where the basketball backboards where anchored?

Those days you felt like one day Kisio or someone would be on a breakaway and fall right through the ice or something.

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11-30-2006, 03:52 PM
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MSG really doesn't have more events than most other two-tenant arenas to be honest. Yeah there are occasional award shows and maybe a few more college basketball games, but I think any arena has something going on just about every night.

I will say that the ice is better than it used to be though. Remember back in the early 90's when there would be 2 large holes in front of each net? I believe it had something to do with the placement of the basket support for Knicks/St. Johns games, but you didn't see them as much after a few years.

EDIT: My apologies for not seeing the post just before mine

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11-30-2006, 04:43 PM
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Fletch
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I cannot talk about other arenas...

but the Garden is happening seemingly every night. You have more than two sports. You have the Knicks, Rangers, Liberty, tennis, St. John's basketball, NIT tourneys, concerts, benefits, Ringling Brothers, and a multitude of other things. It's pretty busy there.

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11-30-2006, 05:05 PM
  #10
zacn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
but the Garden is happening seemingly every night. You have more than two sports. You have the Knicks, Rangers, Liberty, tennis, St. John's basketball, NIT tourneys, concerts, benefits, Ringling Brothers, and a multitude of other things. It's pretty busy there.
Yeah, to add to that, the rangers do have a more problematic arena than other teams and that is why our schedule is always a little different from everyone elses. We are always a game or two ahead of everyone because of times like the circus when the rangers have to go on a roadtrip and couldn't come back to play if they wanted to (though I'd love to see Hollweg take on a clown). The dog show is another issue. Some breeds of dog can sense ice under the floor and try to dig for it so MSG has to actually get rid of the ice altogether. I'd imagine this is the same with the circus.

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11-30-2006, 05:09 PM
  #11
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Maybe this is off-topic, but I always wondered how come some arenas (United Center in Chicago, Wachovia Center in Philly) have their teams go on a road trip for about two-weeks at a time when the Circus comes in but yet the Rangers and Knicks just play through it. Maybe because it used to stay here for about a month and a half, but I always go to Rangers and Knicks game in march and see those massive circus lights hanging from the ceiling.

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11-30-2006, 05:21 PM
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I remember...

Gretz's last game, April 18, and I was down low (right around where Bryan Adams was before he came out to sing) and you can smell the crap. Now that's the sign of a busy arena!

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11-30-2006, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Gretz's last game, April 18, and I was down low (right around where Bryan Adams was before he came out to sing) and you can smell the crap. Now that's the sign of a busy arena!
Every time you go up the escalators for a game in march/early april, you can smell elephant dung. The scary thing is that the smell was actually more pleasant than alot of our late-season games over the past few years.

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11-30-2006, 05:44 PM
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I remember that too. Afterwards, my brother and I waited for Gretzky out back. He drove out waiving to everyone past some caged lions. Pretty funny.

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11-30-2006, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danno2530 View Post
MSG really doesn't have more events than most other two-tenant arenas to be honest. Yeah there are occasional award shows and maybe a few more college basketball games, but I think any arena has something going on just about every night.

I will say that the ice is better than it used to be though. Remember back in the early 90's when there would be 2 large holes in front of each net? I believe it had something to do with the placement of the basket support for Knicks/St. Johns games, but you didn't see them as much after a few years.

EDIT: My apologies for not seeing the post just before mine
Actually that's not entirely accurate.

The Garden is actually one of, if not THE most active arena in north america depending on the year.

Some arean's might have other things going on when hockey isn't there, but it usually isn't anywhere near the scale of what goes on at the Garden.

Going back a few years when I was there, the problem was that everything requires a massive amount of equipment.

And let's not forget, the Garden is also an older arena which doesn't really help either.

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11-30-2006, 06:54 PM
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Alot has been said about the garden ice being "not the best" before , seems anytime it's not an MSG broadcast there's something said by the announcers. This year, I have noticed there has been a few games where the puck was bouncing quite a bit.

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11-30-2006, 06:59 PM
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The NHL needs to step in. But more importantly, so do the teams and the owners themselves. The ice needs to be up to a specific quality as to protect players from injury.

But, from a technological aspect, maintaining good ice shouldnt be too difficult. Ice has many predictable properties with respect to pressure and temperature.

Put a B-Ball court or Lax field on top, and the ice warps and melts from the pressure alone. Solution: Evenly distribute the weight on the ice surface to reduce pressure points. In addition to this, you should use materials that either insulate of even draw heat from the top of the ice as you have other surfaces over them.

It might raise the surface of whatever field/court you're putting atop the ice a bit more than normal, and cost a bit more as well. But it can be a solution to having good ice.

I hope the Devils Newark Arena will provide some good ice for when our teams meet next season. The Nets wont be moving there with the Devs... so better Ice?


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11-30-2006, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post

I find it very disheartening that the league isnt taking more initiative here. As expected, all the NHL talks about is "growing the game" and then they change the rules and install all these silly penalties to make for a more exciting game that "features speed and skill", yet the playing surface in more than 3/4 of the facilities isn't up to par.
the league is run by the owners, owners would have to pay for the upgrade and increased maintainance costs, we all know how the owners feel about spending their money.

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11-30-2006, 08:07 PM
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Not all owners are evil.

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11-30-2006, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Actually that's not entirely accurate.

The Garden is actually one of, if not THE most active arena in north america depending on the year.

Some arean's might have other things going on when hockey isn't there, but it usually isn't anywhere near the scale of what goes on at the Garden.

Going back a few years when I was there, the problem was that everything requires a massive amount of equipment.

And let's not forget, the Garden is also an older arena which doesn't really help either.
Very true. Alot of arenas have about the same amount of events taking place as MSG...but alot of these arenas were built in the last decade. I think no matter what anyone says about MSG, considering it's age and maybe not counting the ice, it is one of the best well-kept arenas in North America.

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12-01-2006, 12:56 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by danno2530 View Post
Very true. Alot of arenas have about the same amount of events taking place as MSG...but alot of these arenas were built in the last decade. I think no matter what anyone says about MSG, considering it's age and maybe not counting the ice, it is one of the best well-kept arenas in North America.
I have to tell you that even with it's age I consider it to be amongst the best I've been in and worked in.

I think you'll see an improvement in the ice conditions when they build a new arena, but because of the activity in NY I don't think you'll ever see the best conditions.

As for the general approach of the NHL, they are in a tough position. Unless an arena is used only for hockey and other scattered events, it's VERY expensive to get good ice. As such hockey just isn't enough of a "big" item to warrant the expense.

The thing with hockey fans is that they are a double edged sword a lot of times.

They are die-hard to the bone and they are usually amongst the most knowledgeable in all sports.

The problem is that sometimes they are so die-hard that they don't understand that most people don't care about the sport and that it ranks behind pro beach volleyball and bowling in terms of attention paid to it.

The expense to get good ice in most North American cities just isn't worth the investment for a lot of these guys, because it is a VERY expensive process. Perhaps more than the average person really understands.

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12-01-2006, 01:15 PM
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Bobby H was just talking about how bad the ice is @ MSG on local Atlanta radio. He also said it's just as bad in Atlanta.

I wonder how much of a factor is it that Penn station is under MSG.

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12-01-2006, 01:32 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
The expense to get good ice in most North American cities just isn't worth the investment for a lot of these guys, because it is a VERY expensive process. Perhaps more than the average person really understands.
People cite Toronto as a place with bad ice though, and ACC isn't an old building. Did they skimp on "ice chilling" capabilities, or is making good ice a lot more difficult than throwing expensive equipment and technology at the situaton?

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12-01-2006, 02:39 PM
  #24
Fletch
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Isn't the ice...

at the Air Canada Centre said to be worse than the old Maple Leaf Gardens? I thought it was because of the added activities they have there, including the Raptors. Calgary and Edmonton have the best ice - and that's because they're dedicated to hockey.

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12-01-2006, 03:28 PM
  #25
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They should make it mandatory to have de-humidifiers in all arenas.

In addition to this, have proper ice surfaces a few hours before gametime.

Having good ice isnt too hard to do. We live in the 21st century...

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