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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 6)

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Old
10-07-2013, 12:01 PM
  #26
Habs Icing
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Just curious, who are these 15 goalies who are better than Price?
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
I'm also curious who these 15 goalies are
Last year Montreal allowed the 5th fewest shots against. Only NJ, St Louis, Chicago & LA allowed fewer shots yet our elite goalie was 32nd in GAA and 37th in Sv%. among goalies who played double digit games.

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10-07-2013, 12:08 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Last year Montreal allowed the 5th fewest shots against. Only NJ, St Louis, Chicago & LA allowed fewer shots yet our elite goalie was 32nd in GAA and 37th in Sv%. among goalies who played double digit games.
So..?

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10-07-2013, 12:10 PM
  #28
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I was a big Price defender last year and while I'm not a hater, I do think it's simply fact that he has to be better. As much as the guy a few posts up satirized the 6.5M comment, it's the truth. He's one of the highest paid goalies in the NHL and is playing at a level where he should be in the top ~20.

I believe in the talent and he's probably the most naturally talented goalie in the world, but this year is a pretty big one. I'm confident he can shut the critics up this year but until then I'm considering us as having a top 20-15 goalie in the NHL rather than the top 5 one we're paying for. And that's fine, in today's NHL you can be perfectly successful with a top 20-15 goalie, but it does kinda suck when you're paying for a top 5.

If Waite can help Niemi and Crawford play well, I hope he can do the same for Price who is substantially more talented than either guy. I like the stuff he's said to the media about getting Price to move cross crease on his feet, if Carey can work some of that into his game we should be golden.
Well there are 7 goalies whose salary this season is equal or greater than Price this year. An additionally 2 others have higher caphits but less salary. So where does this top-5 business come in? He's in a group of about 10 goalies that get paid premium dollars. It's pretty easy to make a case that he is a top-10 goalie.

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10-07-2013, 12:14 PM
  #29
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So..?
Buttons?

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10-07-2013, 12:17 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
last year montreal allowed the 5th fewest shots against. Only nj, st louis, chicago & la allowed fewer shots yet our elite goalie was 32nd in gaa and 37th in sv%. Among goalies who played double digit games.
this !

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10-07-2013, 12:19 PM
  #31
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Buttons?
So I guess goalie that played more than 10 games and has better stats last year are better goalies than Price. Got it.

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10-07-2013, 12:19 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Last year Montreal allowed the 5th fewest shots against. Only NJ, St Louis, Chicago & LA allowed fewer shots yet our elite goalie was 32nd in GAA and 37th in Sv%. among goalies who played double digit games.
It's funny you mention NJ, St.Louis and LA as being better in shots against because Quick, Brodeur and Halak all had worse SV% than Carey Price last year, which my guess would have to be that in a shorten season, a few bad games, or a bad stretch will bring down your average quickly. In fact, that is exactly what happened to Price last season, 8 games brought down the his averages of what was until then a good season.

It's even funnier because Price constantly gets compared to 2 of these 3 goal keepers.

Price had a bad 8 game stretch last season and was more or less consistent for the 30 previous games. Actually, as I had mentioned in the previous thread, he was actually consistent for the previous 167 games.

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10-07-2013, 12:20 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Last year Montreal allowed the 5th fewest shots against. Only NJ, St Louis, Chicago & LA allowed fewer shots yet our elite goalie was 32nd in GAA and 37th in Sv%. among goalies who played double digit games.
That is not indicative at all, some very good teams will allow a significant amount of shots from the outside but protect the crease very well. There goalies tend to receive more shots and have better sv %. Lundqvist is a perfect example for that category. Take a look at the Sv% for Brodeur over the years its never (or I should say) rarely was in the top 10 in the league yet he is an elite goal tender.

As it was discussed there was few games that where complete disasters last year where we got scored 6 goals. That is a killer for stats in a short season....

Look at Halak who was doing very well here what he's been doing with less shots since he left MTL. I can't say he looks as spectacular as he was here. We have a good goaltender and unfortunatly our team relied way too much on goal tending in the past 15 year (between Price and Theodore) ... if you want a team that contends your goal tender needs to be sharp but one of 6 guys that are sharp on the ice. I have full confidence that Price is exactly what we need. We just need to continue the rebuilding process and fine tune that D-core which was god awful for much too long now. I think that between Gorges, Suban, Tinordi and soon Emelin that we have the pieces in place. Things are shaping up nicely. Be faithful!


Last edited by Habruti!: 10-07-2013 at 12:27 PM.
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Old
10-07-2013, 12:23 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Well there are 7 goalies whose salary this season is equal or greater than Price this year. An additionally 2 others have higher caphits but less salary. So where does this top-5 business come in? He's in a group of about 10 goalies that get paid premium dollars. It's pretty easy to make a case that he is a top-10 goalie.
Please make your case that he is a top 10 goalie ? Do you have the stats to prove it ?

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10-07-2013, 12:24 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
It's funny you mention NJ, St.Louis and LA as being better in shots against because Quick, Brodeur and Halak all had worse SV% than Carey Price last year, which my guess would have to be that in a shorten season, a few bad games, or a bad stretch will bring down your average quickly. It's even funnier because Price constantly gets compared to 2 of these 3 goal keepers.

Price had a bad 8 game stretch last season and was more or less consistent for the 30 previous games.
I wonder if there is a study which states teams that allow more shots have higher Sv% goalies or vice versa.

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Old
10-07-2013, 12:27 PM
  #36
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I wonder if there is a study which states teams that allow more shots have higher Sv% goalies or vice versa.
The thing is shots against don't tell you the quality of those shots. Your team might be good at keeping possession in the offensive zone, but terrible at defending when the puck actually changes possession, even if it occurs only a few times in a game.

Actually, there is an easier explanation for it, Habs were excellent 5 on 5, but ****ing terrible on the PK. Price's ES SV% was middle of the pack at .920, but was one of the worst in the league for starters on the PK, which explains the huge drop in his overall SV%. Habs might not allow a lot of shots globally, but on the PK they concede multiple high-scoring chances. I don't need even need to cite the stats, you could tell that the PK was awful last season just watching it.

Price didn't play well in the last 8 games, but it wasn't an entire meltdown as some suggest. The team was crap as a whole was crap in the final stretch.

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10-07-2013, 12:31 PM
  #37
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Works both ways buddy .....

if he lets in 1-2 goals and the habs win, he is automatically the first star of the game (like the game against the flyers, getting all the praise)
if he wins, no matter how many shots he faced, he is our savior.
If he saves 1 out of 10 breakaways, he will be praised for that 1 save.
If he loses with over 25 saves, it's our defence's fault.
If he loses against a playoff team, he still deserves all the credit in the world.
If he plays like crap and lets in 5+ goals, it's okay because he is Carey Price and our defence is at fault.
Simply not true.

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Old
10-07-2013, 12:32 PM
  #38
Rosso Scuderia
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Let's make it easier for us, those who said that there's 15 goalies that are better than Price, just name it, instead of posting goalies stats of last year.... unless you really think they are superior goalie because they have better stats in a 48 games season.

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Old
10-07-2013, 12:35 PM
  #39
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6 goalies had a worse SV% than Carey Price SH. Price's was .804

920 at even strength
804 while short handed.

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10-07-2013, 01:07 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Habz2006 View Post
Please make your case that he is a top 10 goalie ? Do you have the stats to prove it ?
Well considering top-10 is a subjective label it can never be proven with stats. But how about 9th in wins, 10th is vezina voting. Not too mention Crosby thinks he's #1, the Eastern conference coaches named him the East's top goalie at the mid season point last year.

Please name the 10-15 goalies you think are better than Price.

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10-07-2013, 01:14 PM
  #41
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That's what I hate about long gaps in the schedule, these threads go back to cover old ground that was handled in the off-season. In this case, multiple off-seasons.

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10-07-2013, 01:15 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Just curious, who are these 15 goalies who are better than Price?
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
I'm also curious who these 15 goalies are
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Let's make it easier for us, those who said that there's 15 goalies that are better than Price, just name it, instead of posting goalies stats of last year.... unless you really think they are superior goalie because they have better stats in a 48 games season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Well considering top-10 is a subjective label it can never be proven with stats. But how about 9th in wins, 10th is vezina voting. Not too mention Crosby thinks he's #1, the Eastern conference coaches named him the East's top goalie at the mid season point last year.

Please name the 10-15 goalies you think are better than Price.


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10-07-2013, 01:22 PM
  #43
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fucale fucale fucale!!!

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10-07-2013, 01:35 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Last year Montreal allowed the 5th fewest shots against. Only NJ, St Louis, Chicago & LA allowed fewer shots yet our elite goalie was 32nd in GAA and 37th in Sv%. among goalies who played double digit games.
Not a good indication of Sv% considering it's the type of shots he gets. Sure, you can lead the lead in giving up the least shots but if all those shots are one timers, breakaways... etc.


Last edited by ReppingMTL: 10-07-2013 at 01:37 PM. Reason: NVM was already beaten to the point
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10-07-2013, 02:03 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Lars Mon Amour View Post
Carey Price? That's my boy.

If I was new to Hockey, Judging by that video I would of thought Price has already won 3 Stanley cups and hes being underestimated by everyone.

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10-07-2013, 02:50 PM
  #46
Habs Icing
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Not a good indication of Sv% considering it's the type of shots he gets. Sure, you can lead the lead in giving up the least shots but if all those shots are one timers, breakaways... etc.
I'll give you a break and take it you didn't mean to say ALL but rather most.

Okay so most of the shots Price faced last year were one timers, breakaways and other impossible shots.

Really? That's your argument. Does anyone really want to use that as an argument? If that's the case then why does Budaj - a vastly inferior goalie to Price- have almost exactly the same stats as Price. He plays behind the same porous defence but he is supposedly not as good.


Last edited by Habs Icing: 10-07-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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10-07-2013, 03:01 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Well considering top-10 is a subjective label it can never be proven with stats. But how about 9th in wins, 10th is vezina voting. Not too mention Crosby thinks he's #1, the Eastern conference coaches named him the East's top goalie at the mid season point last year.

Please name the 10-15 goalies you think are better than Price.
I guess you failed logic in university.

First you state that labeling a goalie top 10 is subjective and can't be proven with stats and then you ask me to name 10-15 goalies that are better than Price.

If you don't want me to use stats what should I use?

His choice of haberdashery? His choice in underwear? Or maybe his choice in women?

Last year behind a solid defence Price came up with less than stellar results. He was near the bottom of the league for goaltending results. I've been generous. I don't claim he is at the bottom of the pack. I'm saying he's in the middle of the pack. His stats are very very similar to our average backup goalie who plays behind the same defence that allows the same amount of outrageous breakaways, one timers and other impossible shots.

But his regular season stats can be forgiven if his playoff record was slightly better. Nota lot just a little better.

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10-07-2013, 03:04 PM
  #48
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this !
Don't you know? it's the defence's fault.

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10-07-2013, 03:31 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Last year behind a solid defence Price came up with less than stellar results. He was near the bottom of the league for goaltending results. I've been generous. I don't claim he is at the bottom of the pack. I'm saying he's in the middle of the pack. His stats are very very similar to our average backup goalie who plays behind the same defence that allows the same amount of outrageous breakaways, one timers and other impossible shots.

But his regular season stats can be forgiven if his playoff record was slightly better. Nota lot just a little better.
It's not a solid D. And it was really exposed when Emelin went down.

Great with the puck and lousy without it. And until we fix this (and get bigger upfront) we won't advance anywhere.
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Don't you know? it's the defence's fault.
If you think this is a good D, I don't know what to say to you man. It's not.

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10-07-2013, 03:34 PM
  #50
Andy
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I guess you failed logic in university.

First you state that labeling a goalie top 10 is subjective and can't be proven with stats and then you ask me to name 10-15 goalies that are better than Price.

If you don't want me to use stats what should I use?

His choice of haberdashery? His choice in underwear? Or maybe his choice in women?

Last year behind a solid defence Price came up with less than stellar results. He was near the bottom of the league for goaltending results. I've been generous. I don't claim he is at the bottom of the pack. I'm saying he's in the middle of the pack. His stats are very very similar to our average backup goalie who plays behind the same defence that allows the same amount of outrageous breakaways, one timers and other impossible shots.

But his regular season stats can be forgiven if his playoff record was slightly better. Nota lot just a little better.
But your entire post is misleading. Since 2010-2011 season, which was about 167 regular season games, Price stats were not less than stellar, in fact over 167 games in two and 2/3rd of season Price's SV% was .920%.

920% is not less than stellar. It's a number one goaltenders numbers. In fact, your whole less than stellar argument comes down to 8 ****ing games, from the day Emelin got hurt.

8 games represent 5 % of the 167 games he's played since 2010. Essentially you are using the performance over 5% of those games to trash on Price. Not only that, but there is strong date to suggest that the poor performance over those 8 games isn't the result of an individual meltdown.

Only 9 goalkeepers in 2011-2012 who played more than 30 games posted higher than a .920SV%.
Only 10 goalkeepers in 2010-2011 who played more than 30 games posted higher than a .920SV% (Price was one of those goalies).
Only 11 keeprs in 2012-2013 who played more than 20 games posted a higher than a 920SV%


Last edited by Andy: 10-07-2013 at 03:43 PM.
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