HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Notices

Holmgren Deserves to get Fired

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-08-2013, 11:14 AM
  #101
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 3,353
vCash: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by buff View Post
Jeff Carter deal was a mistake too... You can't trade a 40 goals scorer like that...
Jeff Carter scored 40 goals 1 like 6 years ago. He's a 30 goal scorer.

Plus Holmgren got the #8 overall pick plus Voracek. Voracek is arguably a better player right now + they have Couturier.

Maybe they were the wrong moves, but Holmgren made out pretty well on both deals.

Hiesenberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 11:15 AM
  #102
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
 
LegionOfDoom91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 13,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buff View Post
Jeff Carter deal was a mistake too... You can't trade a 40 goals scorer like that...
Nope, I can see arguments for keeping Richards but the Carter deal was a very good one. I'd do that trade 10 out 10 times.

LegionOfDoom91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 11:30 AM
  #103
flyershockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Nope, I can see arguments for keeping Richards but the Carter deal was a very good one. I'd do that trade 10 out 10 times.
Especially when you consider that at the time Carter was either unwilling to, or couldn't transition to the wing. That was tough on the lineup when we had Giroux, Briere, and Richards who were all better suited for the center spot.

flyershockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 11:46 AM
  #104
MP92
Registered User
 
MP92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,222
vCash: 500
Yes, Jeff Carter is a 30 goal scorer and not a very efficient one at that. The dude has to shoot 320 pucks on net to get 30. Matt Read is a more efficient shooter than him and he was undrafted. If you want to make the case the Richards trade was a mistake, fine. I didn't like his attitude the last season he was here but he was/is a great 2 way player and one of the best in the game in that regard.

MP92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 12:27 PM
  #105
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 7,402
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Nope, I can see arguments for keeping Richards but the Carter deal was a very good one. I'd do that trade 10 out 10 times.
I never wanted them to trade Richards, but the return on Carter was fantastic. It would have been awesome to have Richie and Coots playing the PK together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Especially when you consider that at the time Carter was either unwilling to, or couldn't transition to the wing. That was tough on the lineup when we had Giroux, Briere, and Richards who were all better suited for the center spot.
Of course once he got to LA he was so grateful for being rescued from Columbus that he turned into a total team guy who was happy to play wing.

Curufinwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 12:38 PM
  #106
Legion of Goon
.....Flyer Alarm
 
Legion of Goon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lake Titicaca
Country: Germany
Posts: 1,130
vCash: 200
I was OK with the Carter trade and think it worked out well.

But I was not a fan of the Richards trade, it might be a good trade in the end, bur I am a huge Richards fan and not a B schenn fan yet.

Legion of Goon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 12:50 PM
  #107
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,355
vCash: 500
•Bob McKenzie on NHL Live: Flyers coaching change, Holmgren’s future and the spin-o-r

http://kuklaskorner.com/hockey/comme...illy-and-spins

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 12:54 PM
  #108
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 30,906
vCash: 50
The Carter trade has worked out for the Flyers. I think most Flyer fans would agree with that. The Richards trade is still up in the air. So far its not looking like it has worked out.

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 01:04 PM
  #109
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
The Carter trade has worked out for the Flyers. I think most Flyer fans would agree with that. The Richards trade is still up in the air. So far its not looking like it has worked out.
Carter trade was a good hockey trade....Howson made us an offer we couldn't refuse.

Richards situation was one big mess and was made for a host of reasons...many up for debate but one of them was definitely b/c him and the coach were not on the same page and in Richards' defense maybe he had legitimate reasons as we are seeing. I do remember him calling out Lavi in public on his PP schemes when they were struggling although Mullin took a lot of heat too at the time from the fans. Nonetheless, they didn't want to fire another coach so he got shipped out along with Carter. Also I doubt Richards would have been any happier had Carter been sent and he remained which didn't seem likely to happen anyway.

I like the returns they got for Richards still but yeah I want to see more from B Schenn...but getting Schenn, Simmonds and invariably Grossmann was pretty good IMO although a D man would have helped..obviously.

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 01:12 PM
  #110
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,362
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Yeah the Carter and Richards trades don't register on the "fire Holmgren" meter for at all. He's made his mistakes, but those two are not on that list. If even one of those guys was still on this team, there is no telling what the roster would look like right now. I'm not so sure Read and Giroux are here long term if Richards or Carter is still here. I think if they are both still here there is slim to no chance that they are (or at least you are looking at a very different Giroux who may not be the player he is today because of the glut of centers this team has). It is a slippery slope to start playing the what-if game with Richards and Carter.

We got a good return for both players. Even if Schenn doesn't turn out to be the stud many thought he would be, I think I still go with Schenn, Simmonds, and the pick over Richards.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 01:14 PM
  #111
GoneFullHextall
adios Holmgren
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 30,906
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Carter trade was a good hockey trade....Howson made us an offer we couldn't refuse.

Richards situation was one big mess and was made for a host of reasons...many up for debate but one of them was definitely b/c him and the coach were not on the same page and in Richards' defense maybe he had legitimate reasons as we are seeing. I do remember him calling out Lavi in public on his PP schemes when they were struggling although Mullin took a lot of heat too at the time from the fans. Nonetheless, they didn't want to fire another coach so he got shipped out along with Carter. Also I doubt Richards would have been any happier had Carter been sent and he remained which didn't seem likely to happen anyway.

I like the returns they got for Richards still but yeah I want to see more from B Schenn...but getting Schenn, Simmonds and invariably Grossmann was pretty good IMO although a D man would have helped..obviously.
the Richards trade was definitely controversial. Why was he really traded? depends on who you believe. I didnt like it at the time and now I still am not sure in the end it will work out. Simmonds has played well and by all accounts is a fan favorite. The bigger question mark will be Schenn. Way to early to write him off but if he does not work out then it the deal will be a loss.
I know some around here are glad that Richards was traded but they have yet to replace what he brings to the rink every night.

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 01:19 PM
  #112
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,362
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
the Richards trade was definitely controversial. Why was he really traded? depends on who you believe. I didnt like it at the time and now I still am not sure in the end it will work out. Simmonds has played well and by all accounts is a fan favorite. The bigger question mark will be Schenn. Way to early to write him off but if he does not work out then it the deal will be a loss.
I know some around here are glad that Richards was traded but they have yet to replace what he brings to the rink every night.
I disagree with this. They have yet to replace in one single player, but I think a cobination of Simmonds, Schenn, and Couturier bring to the table what Richards brought. Simmonds with the energy, Schenn with the all-around game (though not the same level), and Couturier with the defense.

Not every trade has to be an absolute hose job or a complete disaster. I think this trade will go down as a good deal for both teams. Richards was my favorite player and I hated to see him go, but again, if right now the Kings offered Richards for Simmonds, Schenn, and a third would you do it? I wouldn't.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 01:21 PM
  #113
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yeah the Carter and Richards trades don't register on the "fire Holmgren" meter for at all. He's made his mistakes, but those two are not on that list. If even one of those guys was still on this team, there is no telling what the roster would look like right now. I'm not so sure Read and Giroux are here long term if Richards or Carter is still here. I think if they are both still here there is slim to no chance that they are (or at least you are looking at a very different Giroux who may not be the player he is today because of the glut of centers this team has). It is a slippery slope to start playing the what-if game with Richards and Carter.

We got a good return for both players. Even if Schenn doesn't turn out to be the stud many thought he would be, I think I still go with Schenn, Simmonds, and the pick over Richards.
I thought Holmgren redeemed himself with that trade and I said I would judge him again from that trade forward. His follow up unfortunately has not been very good at all...

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 01:26 PM
  #114
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Wing or Retire!
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Alexandria
Country: Liberia
Posts: 37,232
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I disagree with this. They have yet to replace in one single player, but I think a cobination of Simmonds, Schenn, and Couturier bring to the table what Richards brought. Simmonds with the energy, Schenn with the all-around game (though not the same level), and Couturier with the defense.

Not every trade has to be an absolute hose job or a complete disaster. I think this trade will go down as a good deal for both teams. Richards was my favorite player and I hated to see him go, but again, if right now the Kings offered Richards for Simmonds, Schenn, and a third would you do it? I wouldn't.
If you're relying on three players to replace one player, you haven't really replaced that player.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 01:30 PM
  #115
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If you're relying on three players to replace one player, you haven't really replaced that player.
Not really..they needed more depth and strength at the wings unfortunately it hasn't been enough...Schenn has to break out for it to be completely worth it though. He was the main return..

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 02:08 PM
  #116
Appleyard
Registered User
 
Appleyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manc/Shef/Utrecht
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 5,424
vCash: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Not really..they needed more depth and strength at the wings unfortunately it hasn't been enough...Schenn has to break out for it to be completely worth it though. He was the main return..
I think if Schenn plays consistently on 2LW he breaks 50 points, and if we they make the playoffs he is probably in the 55-60 range.

Factored he had 46 last season... while going missing for large stretches, playing pretty tough minutes, and being shuffled around a lot... and spending a lot of time with Briere, which incidentally were the games his production dipped relatively.

At times last year he looked fantastic, fast, strong, physical and very underrated defensively. I only question his consistency and his hockey IQ, he has the other tools, and hopefully maturity irons out those two obvious kinks in his game.

Appleyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 05:29 PM
  #117
Justified
Moderator
Amaro out
 
Justified's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 28,170
vCash: 673
He thought Leighton was an NHL goalie...

Justified is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 05:31 PM
  #118
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,362
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If you're relying on three players to replace one player, you haven't really replaced that player.
On paper, no you haven't. But having several players that bring the same thing to the team (to a lesser extent) for the same price is pretty close. Otherwise you will have Richards, and likely lesser players playing where Simmonds and Schenn are playing because of salary cap constraints and other roster issues. Do you want the one guy who can do it all and have two guys out there that are just meh, or do you want the three guys that bring all those aspects of the game to the team but to a lesser extent?

Here is a good way to judge the trade...right now would you trade Schenn, Simmonds, and a third for Richards?

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 05:40 PM
  #119
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 7,402
vCash: 500
Now I would since Richie is two years closer to breaking down. Back then, I was opposed.

Curufinwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 06:32 PM
  #120
DrinkFightFlyers
Grave Before Shave
 
DrinkFightFlyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 12,362
vCash: 155
Send a message via AIM to DrinkFightFlyers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Now I would since Richie is two years closer to breaking down. Back then, I was opposed.
That doesn't really answer the question. If you are saying you would do it now, then you are saying the trade worked out well for the Flyers. There are a lot of trades I wouldn't make at the time that I would make now and vice versa. Whether you would do them at the time of the trade is not what I am asking. I am asking whether you would do it now. That is the sign of a good trade. If you would do it today, I think that indicates that it was a good deal. If you wouldn't do it today, well then it probably wasn't a good trade.

DrinkFightFlyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 07:31 PM
  #121
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 13,877
vCash: 500
Dreger on insider trading tonight said Homer will step down on his own terms and on his own time. He was fighting to get Hextall back here so he can take over when he is done.

Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 07:52 PM
  #122
Viller
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Dreger on insider trading tonight said Homer will step down on his own terms and on his own time. He was fighting to get Hextall back here so he can take over when he is done.
Im more than ok with Holmgren, I think he makes watching the Flyers more entertaining than most teams. Nobody should be surprised at this(Dreger's comments), hes been extremely successful as the Flyers GM, no reason to fire him.

I am not a fan of the "watch paint dry" approach to building a team, the Flyers have never been and will never be. Holmgren is still the best fit.

People saying the Richards, Carter and Bryzgalov should have gotten him fired are forgetting or just being ignorant to the facts surrounding all those situations.

Viller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 08:15 PM
  #123
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,355
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Dreger on insider trading tonight said Homer will step down on his own terms and on his own time. He was fighting to get Hextall back here so he can take over when he is done.
Sounds about right....he has his escape plan should things go sour...like missing the playoffs again. This is what I figured..he would "step down." It seemed logical when they got Hextall. They probably discussed it beforehand...

FreshPerspective is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 08:41 PM
  #124
zarley zelepukin
Registered User
 
zarley zelepukin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Norristown, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,604
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I disagree with this. They have yet to replace in one single player, but I think a cobination of Simmonds, Schenn, and Couturier bring to the table what Richards brought. Simmonds with the energy, Schenn with the all-around game (though not the same level), and Couturier with the defense.

Not every trade has to be an absolute hose job or a complete disaster. I think this trade will go down as a good deal for both teams. Richards was my favorite player and I hated to see him go, but again, if right now the Kings offered Richards for Simmonds, Schenn, and a third would you do it? I wouldn't.
If you include Couturier then you have to include losing Carter. If we need those 3 guys to replace Richards and it also cost us Carter, I don't see how it could be considered a good trade.

zarley zelepukin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-08-2013, 08:53 PM
  #125
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
 
Pantokrator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Semmes, Alabama
Country: Guatemala
Posts: 4,319
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
If you include Couturier then you have to include losing Carter. If we need those 3 guys to replace Richards and it also cost us Carter, I don't see how it could be considered a good trade.
In a salary cap world having more players with lower salaries is better than a single player with a high salary, unless that player is Chara, Crosby, Malkin, etc. It seems usually better to have solid depth with medium salaries than to have no depth with high end salaries. The Boston team and LA team that won the Stanley Cup have a good blend. Once a team wins though, the salaries on the team go up and depth is depleted. I would much rather have a team of 3 solid lines than a team of on or 1.5 solid lines.

Pantokrator is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:10 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.