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What the HELL is going on with Henrik Lundqvist?

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Old
10-09-2013, 10:13 AM
  #51
PMantis24
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
This thread title, and thread itself is just one big bunch of ridiculousness. Please lock it.
Seriously, so many other issues to worry about. Hank isn't immune to criticism but this is what people are worried about? this is going to be a long season.

Lundpads!

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10-09-2013, 10:44 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
1. Henrik Lundqvist was not to blame for either loss this season.

2. He should NOT be traded. Period. Whether he re-signs with the Rangers or not.

3. I agree that he just does not look comfortable....does not look like Hank, in fact...in the first three games... edited for length.
I made a post similar to yours on the first page of this thread and agree with most of what you say. Except point number 2 - in bold.

If they are not on the same page in money or years and have a limit they don't think Hank will accept, he should absolutely be traded. Just letting him leave at the end of the season would be utterly irresponsible. If he can't be re-signed, Henrik needs to be turned into other really good players. Obviously locking him up should be the preferred option.

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10-09-2013, 10:48 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
I made a post similar to yours on the first page of this thread and agree with most of what you say. Except point number 2 - in bold.

If they are not on the same page in money or years and have a limit they don't think Hank will accept, he should absolutely be traded. Just letting him leave at the end of the season would be utterly irresponsible. If he can't be re-signed, Henrik needs to be turned into other really good players. Obviously locking him up should be the preferred option.
If they're going to trade Lundqvist, they might as well tear the entire thing down.

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10-09-2013, 11:10 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If they're going to trade Lundqvist, they might as well tear the entire thing down.
I know. That's why I find it strange nothing got done before the season started. He was the team + Jagr, then + Gaborik, now + Nash. I'd be stunned if it isn't a major rebuild time without him, but if he's allowed to leave at his peak and the team's left with nothing... It'll be the worst of Sather's numerous New York blunders.

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10-09-2013, 11:16 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If they're going to trade Lundqvist, they might as well tear the entire thing down.
This.

I'm "fine" with trading Lundqvist if the organization also gets rid of Nash, Richards, and everybody else making big money over the age of 27.

It's not going to happen, so you don't trade our one chance at being competitive.

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10-09-2013, 11:23 AM
  #56
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The Rangers got DESTROYED last night. Talking about the goaltending is a waste of time. Hasek wouldn't keep that game close.

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10-09-2013, 11:23 AM
  #57
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I'm so incredibly on the fence about trading the guy. If we trade Lundqvist, there must be a full scale rebuild, and there are like 5 players I'd keep in that instance. I hope it doesn't come to that, but for his entire career in an NYR jersey, he's kept coaches' jobs, and he kept Sather's job, which he shouldn't have anymore. If it means this organization can FINALLY go in a winning direction (how ironic), you gotta do it. I'm an NYR fan first, Hank second.

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10-09-2013, 11:28 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Thank you.

I truly am curious as to whether these "fans" actually watched Lundqvist over his career or just followed his stats.

Every single year we hear this at the beginning. He always starts slow and we always here blah blah blah he sucks.

Then by mid-season it's.....vezina worthy? Great season? carrying us?

Least of my worries as well. Talk about fair weather.
believe I read something that Lundqvists save % was .865 after 10 games last year...

not worried yet

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10-09-2013, 11:57 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
This.

I'm "fine" with trading Lundqvist if the organization also gets rid of Nash, Richards, and everybody else making big money over the age of 27.

It's not going to happen, so you don't trade our one chance at being competitive.
This is how I feel as well. If we're starting the rebuild, FOR REAL, and not looking to patchwork our way into the playoffs again in 1-2 years, than sure, you trade Hank - and everyone else - for the maximum returns possible. And genuinely start from a clean slate. Keep Staal, McD, Callahan, Hagelin, Fast, Miller, Brassard, Stepan? Not even necessarily all of them. Everyone else is gone, and not for roster players, unless they're expiring contracts that need to come the other way to get the return we want. We actually draft in the top-10 for a few years, develop a team identity and philosophy that we stick to in our drafting, hammer into our guys in Hartford and live by with the big club and we worry about starting to be competitive in 4 years. Guys like Cally and Staal would be about 30. Everyone else would still be in their 20s.

Those are the only circumstances under which you actually trade Hank, and it has nothing to do with his pre-season performance + three games, two in which his team played like garbage, one in which he stopped 30 and allowed 1 goal. Since Glen is at the helm, we all know it's not even a conversation worth having.


Last edited by SERE 24: 10-09-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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10-09-2013, 12:30 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
This thread title, and thread itself is just one big bunch of ridiculousness. Please lock it.
Still curious what you think of the links I posted. You claimed earlier that Lundqvist played very deep when he was in Sweden.

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Old
10-09-2013, 01:23 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If they're going to trade Lundqvist, they might as well tear the entire thing down.
Well, I'm on record as saying there is no way we should trade Hank no matter what happens here, and we need to make every possible effort to re-sign him...to a contract that is NOT ridiculous in both salary and length.

That said, I don't quite agree with the sentiment that there is no way we can ever win anything without Henrik Lundqvist in net. Consider two things:

1. We have never won anything WITH Henrik Lundqvist in net. Five playoff series wins in eight seasons. That's it. None of those teams were great, but they all ranged from OK to pretty good. And we're 5-7 in playoff series during that period.

If Hank were to leave (which, again, I DO NOT want to happen), I refuse to believe there is no other goalie who can lead us to a mediocre five playoff series victories in the next eight seasons. The bar has not been set very high around here.

2. Other goalies NOT named Henrik Lundqvist have been winning Stanley Cups recently. While, again, I would make every possible effort to re-sign Hank, it's been proven you don't have to be Hank to win playoff series.

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10-09-2013, 01:35 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Well, I'm on record as saying there is no way we should trade Hank no matter what happens here, and we need to make every possible effort to re-sign him...to a contract that is NOT ridiculous in both salary and length.

That said, I don't quite agree with the sentiment that there is no way we can ever win anything without Henrik Lundqvist in net. Consider two things:

1. We have never won anything WITH Henrik Lundqvist in net. Five playoff series wins in eight seasons. That's it. None of those teams were great, but they all ranged from OK to pretty good. And we're 5-7 in playoff series during that period.

If Hank were to leave (which, again, I DO NOT want to happen), I refuse to believe there is no other goalie who can lead us to a mediocre five playoff series victories in the next eight seasons. The bar has not been set very high around here.

2. Other goalies NOT named Henrik Lundqvist have been winning Stanley Cups recently. While, again, I would make every possible effort to re-sign Hank, it's been proven you don't have to be Hank to win playoff series.
Right, but if we're just going to win 5 playoff series in the next 8 years with Hank's replacement, it's better to tear it down and start building an actual winner from the ground up with strong picks. Moreover, do you think we win those 5 series if not for Hank, or even make the playoffs some years? Hank is a huge reason we even got that far; we're WORSE without him. So put a worse goalie in net and expect to see worse results. Point being, the team is not good enough to REALLY compete. If we're not keeping Henrik, we're DEFINITELY not good enough to compete. If that's the case, we might as well actually fail so that we can build properly, rather than staying afloat as a 7th seed and always drafting in the middle where we get no help.

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10-09-2013, 01:58 PM
  #63
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It's been 3 GAMES.

In those 3 GAMES, the Rangers were outplayed by the Coyotes and completely outclassed and embarrassed by the Sharks.

Despite posting solid numbers against the Kings, I agree, he didn't look 100%, BUT, again, he only let up one goal.

The Rangers lose that game against the Sharks 10 times out of 10 and get blown out in every instant. The game was embarrassing. Of the 4 goals Lundqvist gave up, you might be able to fault him for one! That was a game where men played boys, and it was apparent to everyone.

Lundqvist routinely struggles in October. This is nothing new. The fact that a thread had to be created called the "new" Lundqvist shows how ignorant the fan base is.

People are going to say it's his pads. And the new pad limitation would promote more goals going 5-hole. How many goals has Lundqvist given up 5-hole? Most of the goals have been on deflections or beat him up high. It has nothing to do with the pads. He simply just doesn't look comfortable yet.

And Lundqvist is exposed? It's laughable. Of course if you play in a new system, with worse defense, the goaltender will do worse. The Rangers defense has been laughably bad so far. Last year they were below average, Lundqvist found his game, and covered up the mess. We brought in a new coach to score more goals, and we're scoring the same number of goals, and our defense has worsened exponentially. It's not a surprise.

I even saw a poster in the game day thread claim Lundqvist was "just an above average goaltender" under Renney. Even though, Renney didn't implement a defense first system until his 3rd season here, the Rangers played mostly offense under Jagr's regime, and Lundqvist was a 3x Vezina Finalist and finished All Rookie team under Renney. But he was just an "above average goaltender."

I've never felt like our fan base was so ignorant.

By the way, based on this 3-4 game sample in the NHL right now, Fleury would be the frontrunner for the Vezina. How many of us would take Fleury over Lundqvist because of a 3 game sample?

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10-09-2013, 02:04 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by PK Pilot 76 View Post
Right, but if we're just going to win 5 playoff series in the next 8 years with Hank's replacement, it's better to tear it down and start building an actual winner from the ground up with strong picks. Moreover, do you think we win those 5 series if not for Hank, or even make the playoffs some years? Hank is a huge reason we even got that far; we're WORSE without him. So put a worse goalie in net and expect to see worse results. Point being, the team is not good enough to REALLY compete. If we're not keeping Henrik, we're DEFINITELY not good enough to compete. If that's the case, we might as well actually fail so that we can build properly, rather than staying afloat as a 7th seed and always drafting in the middle where we get no help.
Agreed. We're closer to a bottom five team without him than a true contender with him. Without Lundqvist you would have seen two first round exits each of the last two years. Instead we saw a 2nd and 3rd round playoff appearance.

A team with Stepan, Nash, Richards, Callahan, etc, is not built as a contender. Compare that to Hossa, Kane, Toews, Sharp, NOR do we have the kind of defense of Keith, Seabrook Hjalmarsson in Chicago. We don't have the depth of Bergeron, Lucic, Krecji, Iginla, Marchand or Eriksson of the Boston Bruins. We don't have the elite high end talent that the Penguins have in Crosby and Malkin. This team, as it's built right now, is not a contender nor close to it. Look to teams like the LA, Pittsburgh, Boston, Chicago, San Jose, etc, as teams built to contend. We're not close to that level.

The only way I even think about trading Lundqvist, who is our best chance to go anywhere in the post season, is if he still hasn't settled on an extension by the trade deadline and the team is outside of the playoffs. And let's face it, if Lundqvist doesn't like the way the team is playing and doesn't feel like they're a contender, he probably won't sign that extension.

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10-09-2013, 02:11 PM
  #65
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Since this team has a lot of key parts in place it would be difficult to break the team down completely, enough to stockpile a few top five draft choices like some teams have done. I'm looking at YOU, Long Island.

So with an all-world goalie, some really good defensemen and a few very good forwards and some good ones, there is one other option...

HIRE A REAL GM...one who can turn a good team into a great team. Unlike the clod we have in that position right now.

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10-09-2013, 02:23 PM
  #66
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This thread should honestly be deleted.

Devils fans and the like probably LOVE the fact that this thread was made.

You'll never see it on their board.

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10-09-2013, 02:27 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Still curious what you think of the links I posted. You claimed earlier that Lundqvist played very deep when he was in Sweden.
I don't know why anyone would what to argue with him. Anything you say he just says "I play beer league goalie so I have more knowledge than you" which is so beyond absurd that he thinks he can compare that at all to the NHL.

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10-09-2013, 02:33 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Still curious what you think of the links I posted. You claimed earlier that Lundqvist played very deep when he was in Sweden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
I don't know why anyone would what to argue with him. Anything you say he just says "I play beer league goalie so I have more knowledge than you" which is so beyond absurd that he thinks he can compare that at all to the NHL.
Do you seem to think that Henrik was a stand up, come out and cut down the angle, challenge shooter type of goaltender before he met Benoit Allaire?

Not true at all.

Lundqvist's style was less refined then, much more raw due to his younger age, but his style was still the same as it is now. His game always consisted of playing deeper in the net than what is traditionally taught all throughout the goaltending world around the time he grew up. He was never a standup, or a super-aggressive, come out and challenge type of goalie.

Allaire came along, stressed the importance of allowing the shots to come to him, and helped refine his butterfly style into what we currently see today.

I just spent two days in a row last month ON THE ICE as a goalie coach with him at his own camp. Not only is he an awesome guy, but he went out of his way to discuss with me a ton of different topics about his style past/present, the evolution of his gear, and much more.


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10-09-2013, 02:38 PM
  #69
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Honestly I don't know about his style. I can't think back to 2005 and remember if he was playing more aggressive. I'm not trying to argue that point, Jonathan is. I don't know who is right or wrong on that.

My comments are based on you attacking everyone in the GDT and then yapping about being a goalie/goalie coach or whatever to try and demean anyone's opinion.

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10-09-2013, 02:44 PM
  #70
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My comments are based on you attacking everyone in the GDT and then yapping about being a goalie/goalie coach or whatever to try and demean anyone's opinion.
All I do is offer my opinion based on ACTUAL experience.

It's easy to sit on your couch from home and be able to say "He should have stopped that!" when you have never actually played the position. (not you personally, just the people who actually say things like that)

I am the first to call out Hank when he lets in soft goals, but on this forum it seems EVERY goal that goes in is something he should have stopped.

How spoiled are we with Henrik?

Its armchair quarterbacking at its best on this forum sometimes...

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10-09-2013, 02:51 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
Do you seem to think that Henrik was a stand up, come out and cut down the angle, challenge shooter type of goaltender before he met Benoit Allaire?

Not true at all.

Lundqvist's style was less refined then, much more raw due to his younger age, but his style was still the same as it is now. His game always consisted of playing deeper in the net than what is traditionally taught all throughout the goaltending world around the time he grew up. He was never a standup, or a super-aggressive, come out and challenge type of goalie.
Essentially, everyone who has seen him play from then to now (myself included though obviously to a much lesser degree than the Europeans) disagrees with you. He currently plays much deeper in the net. Allaire's own quotes say that. Henrik says it. The Swedes and Finns who watched him on the regular say it. All the links I posted and a metric ton more that I didn't say it. Yet somehow you think you know more than everyone else.

Hank did not play deep like this in Sweden. He was consistently at the top of the crease and further out against individual players. Today, he plays in the center of the crease to the goal line and rarely comes far out to challenge individuals. Allaire revamped his game quite a bit. When the player admits it, when the goalie coach admits it, and when people who watched him regularly admit it, I think you need to be able to admit it.

I don't care if you have a close up picture of Hank. I've seen him play in Sweden, I've read what he and Allaire have to say about his change in style, and I've read quotes from guys who have watched him regularly in Sweden. What you are saying is simply untrue.

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10-09-2013, 03:03 PM
  #72
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shouldnt have let go of prince chad
He is Tukka's backup after Khudobin left. 26 or 27 y/o. BOS GM ain't dummy.

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10-09-2013, 03:05 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Essentially, everyone who has seen him play from then to now (myself included though obviously to a much lesser degree than the Europeans) disagrees with you. He currently plays much deeper in the net. Allaire's own quotes say that. Henrik says it. The Swedes and Finns who watched him on the regular say it. All the links I posted and a metric ton more that I didn't say it. Yet somehow you think you know more than everyone else.

Hank did not play deep like this in Sweden. He was consistently at the top of the crease and further out against individual players. Today, he plays in the center of the crease to the goal line and rarely comes far out to challenge individuals. Allaire revamped his game quite a bit. When the player admits it, when the goalie coach admits it, and when people who watched him regularly admit it, I think you need to be able to admit it.

I don't care if you have a close up picture of Hank. I've seen him play in Sweden, I've read what he and Allaire have to say about his change in style, and I've read quotes from guys who have watched him regularly in Sweden. What you are saying is simply untrue.


Wow, can you recognize the goalie in that video? I sure can't. His style is so dramatically aggressive, and he is coming so far out of his net to challenge shooters.

It can't possibly be Henrik Lundqvist....

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10-09-2013, 03:10 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevesis View Post


Wow, can you recognize the goalie in that video? I sure can't. His style is so dramatically aggressive, and he is coming so far out of his net to challenge shooters.

It can't possible be Henrik Lundqvist....
And I can post videos that show that he's at the top of his crease and sometimes even further out.

Here, you can actually see the evolution of his style:



His first year with New York was even different than he is now. You can see that Allaire has him playing deeper, but he still reverts to his older tendencies of playing further up in the crease. Most of Hank's saves come at the top of the crease then whereas today, most come in the middle or at the goal line.

Again, stop using your one time meeting with Hank as evidence that contradicts 1) Hank's own words, 2) Allaire's own words, 3) Video evidence, 4) the words of Swedes and Finns who saw him game-in, game-out, 5) the words of others who saw him then.

When Hank says Allaire changed his style and has him playing deeper in the net, is he lying? Did he not watch himself play? Hell, is Allaire lying?

The whole problem is individual clips can show what the author of the video wants them to show. I'll go with Hank and Allaire on this since they both say you're wrong.

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10-09-2013, 03:12 PM
  #75
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Yes, clearly the slightly bigger pads were what made him a Vezina caliber goalie.

And yes, this 3 game stretch is clearly a sufficient sample size to draw larger conclusions and should be used as the basis for speculating about the player's future with this organization.


Seriously, sometimes it's very difficult to read the emotionally charged overreactions on here.

RELAX....

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