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Holmgren Deserves to get Fired

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Old
10-08-2013, 09:07 PM
  #126
zarley zelepukin
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
In a salary cap world having more players with lower salaries is better than a single player with a high salary, unless that player is Chara, Crosby, Malkin, etc. It seems usually better to have solid depth with medium salaries than to have no depth with high end salaries. The Boston team and LA team that won the Stanley Cup have a good blend. Once a team wins though, the salaries on the team go up and depth is depleted. I would much rather have a team of 3 solid lines than a team of on or 1.5 solid lines.
The Kings seem to be doing alright with those guys, and they don't make Crosby/Malkin/Chara money anyway. I think Carter and Richards at their salaries are better bargains than Simmonds and Voracek at theirs. It's not like all the guys we got back are cheap, and of course the ones that are cheap won't stay that way much longer, whether we win a Cup or not.

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10-08-2013, 09:27 PM
  #127
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Florida fans calling that a dive by Hartnell are seriously the worst. I hope their team moves to Quebec

Sorry wrong thread

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10-08-2013, 09:28 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Florida fans calling that a dive by Hartnell are seriously the worst. I hope their team moves to Quebec
One of the Florida teams has to go anyway... and Tampa have a cup so they can't!

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10-08-2013, 09:54 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Florida fans calling that a dive by Hartnell are seriously the worst. I hope their team moves to Quebec

Sorry wrong thread
They are idiots if they think it was a dive. I do think he may have stayed down a little longer to make sure he got the call though.

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Old
10-09-2013, 12:16 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I disagree with this. They have yet to replace in one single player, but I think a cobination of Simmonds, Schenn, and Couturier bring to the table what Richards brought. Simmonds with the energy, Schenn with the all-around game (though not the same level), and Couturier with the defense.

Not every trade has to be an absolute hose job or a complete disaster. I think this trade will go down as a good deal for both teams. Richards was my favorite player and I hated to see him go, but again, if right now the Kings offered Richards for Simmonds, Schenn, and a third would you do it? I wouldn't.
you really cant start combining players on this team and say hey thats Richards right there. Simmonds hasnt been very good this year at all. Schenn is still a young player in this league and its way to early to judge what we have in him.
So to me this trade is still up in the air as far did we get fair value. Could it in the future? sure. right now it is very much up for debate if the return was enough.

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10-09-2013, 10:20 AM
  #131
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Homer has to be the next to go if this fails.

gimme Hexy

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10-09-2013, 10:44 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
For the Schenn discussion.

JVR averaged 15.10 in ice time his last season here and got 46 points (factored), 9th in ice time among forwards.

Last year he was at 56, this year he is pretty sure to break 60.

Schenn averaged 15.31 in ice time last year and got 46 points (factored), 8th in ice time among forwards

I imagine if we trade him the same trend will happen.
The Toronto Maple Leafs offer JM Liles and a 2nd rd pick for Luke Schenn. Salaries match, both are serviceable and you get a 2nd to boot! I'm pretty sure I know the reaction this will get, though.

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10-09-2013, 11:14 AM
  #133
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When people talk about the carter and Richards deal they often forget about the depth we have because of it. 4 forwards instead of 2. With maybe Cousins on the way.

We complain about not having a #9 guy for our 3rd line but right now, we would be looking for a WHOLE 3rd line. Also, as far as B. Schenn goes, we all agree that his progress is slower than wanted. But he is still #9 in points from his draft year for forwards and just started his breakout last year. Keep this core of Schenn, G, Jake, Couts, Read, and Vinny(contract). I like Simmonds but we REALLY need a young PMD that can play TODAY and replace Kimmo next year. He might be the player to add that player. And FWIW, if a trade is done...make sure he goes to the West...and not LA!

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10-09-2013, 11:26 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
you really cant start combining players on this team and say hey thats Richards right there. Simmonds hasnt been very good this year at all. Schenn is still a young player in this league and its way to early to judge what we have in him.
So to me this trade is still up in the air as far did we get fair value. Could it in the future? sure. right now it is very much up for debate if the return was enough.
I think you can combine players and say whether or not it replaces a guy. Why can't you? Simmonds and Schenn scored almost double the points that Richards has scored in their time here in Philly and they are bringing a lot of the same aspects of their game. Neither one alone has "replaced" him, but I'd rather have Schenn and Simmonds than Richards.

Schenn and Simmonds alone are both lesser players than Richards, but it isn't like they are scrubs. There is nothing wrong with saying that two players replace a single player (especially when they are players that were traded for each other).

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10-09-2013, 11:42 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think you can combine players and say whether or not it replaces a guy. Why can't you? Simmonds and Schenn scored almost double the points that Richards has scored in their time here in Philly and they are bringing a lot of the same aspects of their game. Neither one alone has "replaced" him, but I'd rather have Schenn and Simmonds than Richards.

Schenn and Simmonds alone are both lesser players than Richards, but it isn't like they are scrubs. There is nothing wrong with saying that two players replace a single player (especially when they are players that were traded for each other).
What's better...having one guy who's worth three players, or three players worth one guy? The only logical answer is the one guy worth three.

With the one guy you can build around him, especially since over time the three players will likely cost more.

When you have to combine the efforts of multiple players from two trades to say you've replaced one player, I can't see any way to say you've truly replaced him.

Edit: Do you take Malkin at 100 points in a season? If you trade him for three 33 point players, would you really consider him replaced?

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10-09-2013, 11:43 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think you can combine players and say whether or not it replaces a guy. Why can't you? Simmonds and Schenn scored almost double the points that Richards has scored in their time here in Philly and they are bringing a lot of the same aspects of their game. Neither one alone has "replaced" him, but I'd rather have Schenn and Simmonds than Richards.

Schenn and Simmonds alone are both lesser players than Richards, but it isn't like they are scrubs. There is nothing wrong with saying that two players replace a single player (especially when they are players that were traded for each other).
Especially when Simmonds has more points than Richards since the trade by himself. Richards brings better D but Simmer brought more net pressence and a bigger body. And we have yet to see the best of Schenn.

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10-09-2013, 11:54 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
Especially when Simmonds has more points than Richards since the trade by himself. Richards brings better D but Simmer brought more net pressence and a bigger body. And we have yet to see the best of Schenn.
Points alone aren't what Richards provided when he was here. Richards was one of the best PKers in the league, who could also play on the top PP unit, and chipped in Selke caliber two way play. Simmonds doesn't provide that, and while he has outproduced Richards it's questionable that he comes close to replacing the whole package.


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10-09-2013, 11:58 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
What's better...having one guy who's worth three players, or three players worth one guy? The only logical answer is the one guy worth three.
Obviously...but I don't think Richards is worth both (plus the pick). I think Simmonds and Schenn together bring more to the table than Richards alone and Richards alone brings less to the table than Simmonds and Schenn together.

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With the one guy you can build around him, especially since over time the three players will likely cost more.
This is true, but building around a guy like Richards without having traded him for Schenn and Simmonds, it's hard to say just who would have been built around him. Would a set-up of G, Richards, Couturier down the middle look better than G-VL-Couturier? Would Laughton be in the mix? Who would be playing on the wings? Too many what ifs out there. Schenn and Simmonds bring more to the table than Richards does, and at a lower cost. Over time that cost might increase, but that can also be said about the guys with whom you are building around Richards.

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When you have to combine the efforts of multiple players from two trades to say you've replaced one player, I can't see any way to say you've truly replaced him.
Two trades? Simmonds and Schenn were in the same deal. Simmonds + Schenn > Richards. That is what I am saying. Those two together bring more to the table than Richards.

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Edit: Do you take Malkin at 100 points in a season? If you trade him for three 33 point players, would you really consider him replaced?
No, that isn't the same thing because Simmonds and Schenn aren't bring less to the table than Richards is bringing. Simmonds alone has scored more than Richards since the trade, Schenn has also been relatively productive. Both players bring the type of energy to the team that Ricahrds brought. Both players cost less than Richards (which is ever so important around here for every single issue ever...unless it doesn't go with your argument).

Would you trade Malkin at a 100 points per season for two players that score 80 points per season, have lower salaries, are younger, and bring similar styles of play to the ice? I know I would.

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10-09-2013, 11:59 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think you can combine players and say whether or not it replaces a guy. Why can't you? Simmonds and Schenn scored almost double the points that Richards has scored in their time here in Philly and they are bringing a lot of the same aspects of their game. Neither one alone has "replaced" him, but I'd rather have Schenn and Simmonds than Richards.

Schenn and Simmonds alone are both lesser players than Richards, but it isn't like they are scrubs. There is nothing wrong with saying that two players replace a single player (especially when they are players that were traded for each other).
Never said they were scrubs. Of course 2 players outscored one guy last year. Of course you have to factor in how much Richards has been hurt. but like I said you really cannot think it like that.
i still maintain right now this deal is up in the air. Would I do the deal? I probably wouldnt honestly. Me personally I would have held out for one of their young defenseman.
Talk to me in a year or so. Still up in the air for me.

EDIT: Do the Kings win the Cup with Schenn and Simmonds? i doubt it.

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10-09-2013, 12:01 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Points alone aren't what Richards provided when he was here. Richards was one of the best PKers in the league, who could also play on the top PP unit, and chipped Selke caliber two way play. Simmonds doesn't provide that, and while he has outproduced Richards it's questionable that he comes close to replacing the whole package.
Oh I agree. I was simply stating that he replaced the offense side of Richards by himself...which was not expected. 1 for 1 ... I would take Richards all day long. But when u throw in Schenn I would take the 2 for 1.

And then I think that if JVR was still here...our top 9 would be sooo good....if we could get the puck out of our end.

JVR G Voracek
Schenn Vinny Simmonds
Hartnell Couts Read

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10-09-2013, 12:07 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Obviously...but I don't think Richards is worth both (plus the pick). I think Simmonds and Schenn together bring more to the table than Richards alone and Richards alone brings less to the table than Simmonds and Schenn together.
Questionable. Neither one comes close to covering his defensive play, which is vital and a problem with the forward corps since the trades.


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This is true, but building around a guy like Richards without having traded him for Schenn and Simmonds, it's hard to say just who would have been built around him. Would a set-up of G, Richards, Couturier down the middle look better than G-VL-Couturier? Would Laughton be in the mix? Who would be playing on the wings? Too many what ifs out there. Schenn and Simmonds bring more to the table than Richards does, and at a lower cost. Over time that cost might increase, but that can also be said about the guys with whom you are building around Richards.
Actually, Richards in place of Lecav could be superior, or at least equal. It's not like Richards is a slouch. Like I said, Schenn and Simmonds do not bring more to the table. If they did the defensive play among the forwards wouldn't be so nightmarish. We certainly wouldn't need Giroux on the PK anymore...or if he did still PK, let's not forget how many SH opportunities Richards and Giroux made for each other. We haven't been anywhere near the SH threat we were since Richards was hauled out.

Edit: As for building around him, that's the chief issue. And it's a big part of the reason he had to be traded. You can thank Holmgren's cap and asset management for that scenario. People always wanted examples of it actually holding the team back...well, there it is. One of the biggest examples for any team since the cap era began. It's probably that and the Chicago detonation right after they Cupped in '10...except one of those teams has done better than the other.

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Two trades? Simmonds and Schenn were in the same deal. Simmonds + Schenn > Richards. That is what I am saying. Those two together bring more to the table than Richards.
My bad, I thought we were still including Couturier on some level.

And no, they don't bring more to the table than what Richards did. They haven't even replaced it yet, much less surpassed it. His defensive game has to be taken into account.



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No, that isn't the same thing because Simmonds and Schenn aren't bring less to the table than Richards is bringing.
Except they are, which is part of the problem with the plummet in the forward corps' defensive ability since the trades.

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Simmonds alone has scored more than Richards since the trade, Schenn has also been relatively productive.
Richards provided more than just points. He was/is a multi-faceted player...a top special teams player and elite two way player.

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Both players bring the type of energy to the team that Ricahrds brought. Both players cost less than Richards (which is ever so important around here for every single issue ever...unless it doesn't go with your argument).
They do bring energy. But the moment either one needs a raise, the two of them combined are going to price themselves over Richards.

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Would you trade Malkin at a 100 points per season for two players that score 80 points per season, have lower salaries, are younger, and bring similar styles of play to the ice? I know I would.
I would too. But, we didn't do that. We haven't replaced his defensive abilities or special teams abilities. People staring only at production stats are ignoring the big picture. We knew from the start that the outcome of this trade would be heavily dependent on Schenn. So far he's just not delivering. Luckily he's young, so there's still time.

Edit: I'll expand on my Malkin example. When you ask if I would trade him for two 80 points players, that's like trading a mountain in the Rockies for two mountains in the Appalachians. Sure, neither one may be as good for climbing, but both of them together might give you hiking and camping opportunities that equal or surpass your old Rocky peak.

What I was trying to get at is trading Malkin for 3 33 point players who equal his production is like trading your Rocky mountain for a pile of crap the same height. Yes, you have something the same height, but at the end of the day it's not nearly as satisfying. You certainly wouldn't want to climb it.

Replacing a player like Richards with guys who can only surpass his point production is sort of like that. You've got the same height, but the whole overall product isn't as good as what you gave up...especially if the points production is partly cancelled by the downgrade from top defensive play to average defensive play.


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10-09-2013, 01:05 PM
  #142
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Losing Richards made the team worse in the short term including now. Imagine if we had him and Couturier as the two centers behind Giroux.

Simmonds is already 25 and has played five full seasons. The long term worth of the trade depends on what BSchenn develops into.

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10-09-2013, 01:39 PM
  #143
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I think Schenn is underrated defensively frankly. Ofc he is not Richards, but few are, and Couts already is arguably as good as Richards ever was/is defensively.

After Couts, Read and Talbot, Schenn proabably faced the toughest mins last year for forwards.

His defensive numbers are actually almost identical to Reads, and slightly behind Talbots... of course Couts blows them all away, as Richards would, but still.

As for scoring...

Factored:

Mike Richards (age 21-22, 2nd year, 06-07): 14 goals, 20 assists, 44 points. 17.50 TOI, 12.59EV & 1.27 PP

Brayden Schenn (age 21, 2nd year, 12-13): 14 goals, 21 assists, 45 points. 15.31 TOI, 13.04EV & 2.24 PP

So the numbers at the same age are not far off each other offensively, ofc Richards is and was better defensively and a great PKer, but in terms of production they have pretty much matched each other up to this point.

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10-09-2013, 01:42 PM
  #144
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B Schenn has a good nose for the net..I like that.

Coburn just has a nose...

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10-09-2013, 01:46 PM
  #145
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B Schenn has a good nose for the net..I like that.

Coburn just has a nose...
He's definitely run away with the Nose Award every year he's been here.

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10-09-2013, 01:57 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
The Kings seem to be doing alright with those guys, and they don't make Crosby/Malkin/Chara money anyway. I think Carter and Richards at their salaries are better bargains than Simmonds and Voracek at theirs. It's not like all the guys we got back are cheap, and of course the ones that are cheap won't stay that way much longer, whether we win a Cup or not.
Problem is with that "bargain" is their contracts run into their late 30s rather than late 20s/early 30s.

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10-09-2013, 02:18 PM
  #147
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He's definitely run away with the Nose Award every year he's been here.
Lappy gave him a "run" for his money though...

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10-09-2013, 02:30 PM
  #148
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Questionable. Neither one comes close to covering his defensive play, which is vital and a problem with the forward corps since the trades.
A valid point. Richards defensive ability is obviously missed. Outside of that though, Schenn and Simmonds I think are as good as Richards. In many respects individually, and in other respects only when looked at together. But the defense is not something the Flyers have replaced with these two.


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Actually, Richards in place of Lecav could be superior, or at least equal. It's not like Richards is a slouch. Like I said, Schenn and Simmonds do not bring more to the table. If they did the defensive play among the forwards wouldn't be so nightmarish. We certainly wouldn't need Giroux on the PK anymore...or if he did still PK, let's not forget how many SH opportunities Richards and Giroux made for each other. We haven't been anywhere near the SH threat we were since Richards was hauled out.
I wasn't suggesting that I would necessarily rather have VL than Richards (haven't really given much thought to that). It was more of having Richards $5+ million salary and building around that.

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Edit: As for building around him, that's the chief issue. And it's a big part of the reason he had to be traded. You can thank Holmgren's cap and asset management for that scenario. People always wanted examples of it actually holding the team back...well, there it is. One of the biggest examples for any team since the cap era began. It's probably that and the Chicago detonation right after they Cupped in '10...except one of those teams has done better than the other.
It is tough to imagine who would and wouldn't be here right now if Richards still were, which makes this even more of a tough topic to debate. Haha. Having Richards still (and not Simmonds and Schenn) would have drastically altered drafts, free agency, and trades in the past two years. We have Couturier now, but would we have taken Couturier at #8 with Dougie Hamilton there when we had Giroux, Richards, and Briere? What about Laughton the following year? Would Giroux have signed that long-term deal? It is really a tough thing to even argue about in terms of building around a guy with $5+ million in cap hits because it is too difficult to speculate as to what else we would have had to do in terms of signings/trades/drafts and so forth. You are 100% correct in saying that this team right now could have been turned into a Cup contender if Richards wasn't traded. But it is just as likely to speculate that the team would be in the same or worse position if Richards stayed.

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My bad, I thought we were still including Couturier on some level.
Nah, I was just including him in the conversation in terms of showing what the team might look like if 18 was still here.

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And no, they don't bring more to the table than what Richards did. They haven't even replaced it yet, much less surpassed it. His defensive game has to be taken into account.
That's really where we differ. I'd take Simmonds and Schenn over Richards. You wouldn't. I understand your position and I don't think it is really that far off. I'd be cool having Richards too, but for me, I'd go with Simmer and Schenn (and the third rounder that was parlayed into Grossmann).

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Except they are, which is part of the problem with the plummet in the forward corps' defensive ability since the trades.
Defense is certainly an issue, but I think the rest of what they bring makes up for it. Richards is a better player than Schenn and a better player than Simmonds. But together, I'd take the latter.

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Richards provided more than just points. He was/is a multi-faceted player...a top special teams player and elite two way player.
See above.

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They do bring energy. But the moment either one needs a raise, the two of them combined are going to price themselves over Richards.
A valid point, but for a good chunk of the time, they will be cheaper.

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I would too. But, we didn't do that. We haven't replaced his defensive abilities or special teams abilities. People staring only at production stats are ignoring the big picture. We knew from the start that the outcome of this trade would be heavily dependent on Schenn. So far he's just not delivering. Luckily he's young, so there's still time.
Again, this is where we differ. I think Schenn and Simmer bring better offense (collectively for sure, arguably individually); I think their defense is obviously not nearly as good as Richards; I think the rest of their games are pretty much on par with each other. I'd take the big jump in points over the drop in defense, especially when IMO the rest of their games are similar.

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Edit: I'll expand on my Malkin example. When you ask if I would trade him for two 80 points players, that's like trading a mountain in the Rockies for two mountains in the Appalachians. Sure, neither one may be as good for climbing, but both of them together might give you hiking and camping opportunities that equal or surpass your old Rocky peak.
Not seeing the analogy there. Again, I think our big problem is you either you underrating Schenn/Simmonds or overating Richards with me doing the opposite in over/underrating the guys.

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What I was trying to get at is trading Malkin for 3 33 point players who equal his production is like trading your Rocky mountain for a pile of crap the same height. Yes, you have something the same height, but at the end of the day it's not nearly as satisfying. You certainly wouldn't want to climb it.

Replacing a player like Richards with guys who can only surpass his point production is sort of like that. You've got the same height, but the whole overall product isn't as good as what you gave up...especially if the points production is partly cancelled by the downgrade from top defensive play to average defensive play.
See above.

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10-09-2013, 02:35 PM
  #149
zarley zelepukin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PropJoe View Post
Problem is with that "bargain" is their contracts run into their late 30s rather than late 20s/early 30s.
Richards' deal runs until he's 34, which isn't really that old. Carter's runs longer, but with the way the salary cap has generally risen, by the time 2020 rolls around those cap hits probably won't look as high as they do now.

Plus, I would have taken the chance that we'd actually win the Cup with those guys rather than make the team worse in the short term and hope we can build it back up again to the same level 5 years in the future.

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10-09-2013, 02:40 PM
  #150
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Take this with a grain of salt but I was talking to someone who knows a couple of the higher ups in the Flyers organization and knows all of the announcers but Laviolette was fired on the team plane after the Carolina game and Holmgren was supposed to be fired Monday morning and for whatever reason he was not. With that said, Holmgren is on an extremely short leash.

(I know these types of posts are frowned upon so mods can feel free to delete it)

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